What Happened to the Sunken City of Cuba?

a reply to: Flavian

One of the factor's missed by most but not geologists in the Doggerland story is that the crust of the Atlantic is under more pressure when the ice is metled due to sea mass pressure and less when the ice is formed on the continent, this even displaces sub crustal matter, now even today northern Norway is rising slowly but measurably every year. further south here in Britain Scotland is rising slowly and Southern England is Sinking Slowly, as you know geologists take a plastic of highly viscous view of crustal material.

Doggerland may is only one of many island's that now life beneath the sea and of course if you were to stand on what is now a harsh battered sea coast and go back 15000 years below would be grass land's, forrests and game as far as the eye could see, it was of course there that people would have chosen to live rather than the frigid wind swept upland's.

These are matter's all can agree on, what we other's are more interested in and more drawn too is the idea that civilization may have existed during this same period on these Extensive low land's, of course it is a leap too far for some and for other's who like to explain it all away it is not something they want to believe in and are convinced they are correct.

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Hanslune
i.e. if Harte shoots you and buries you in the stream bed near his house and those sediments are 125 million years old - is your skeleton going to be 125 million years old?

Hans! How dare you?

You know damn well I eat what I shoot.

Harte

Holy jumpin’ jesus eating a corndog, that's an ABSURD excuse - just bury the bones after you've gnawed them.

Wastrel!

I prefer home-made soup stock.

Harte

a reply to: LABTECH767

One technical nitpick Doggerland was a low lying area of he continent and not an island

a reply to: Hanslune

It is part of the European continent and quite a way in from the continental shelf, your point is not clear, I never said that the now submerged part of the North sea.

Most of the north sea has been land at various point's in time as indeed has some of the non continental rock that is now young atlantic sea bed.

You remember how they found the buried land on the atlantic ocean complete with river chasm's many million's of years old that must have at some point been above the surface of the ocean, now buried beneath miles of deposit's on top of it but it was not continental rock and like iceland is not continental rock illustrate's how large area's of basaltic crust can be elevated by geological pressures for prolonged period's that are best viewed on the geological time scale.

Go back to the birth of the Atlantic and there were dinosaurs running around on all that now submerged contintal plate right to the edge of it, the edge is where the altantic pushed the plate apart remember and it is even concievable that the pressure pushing the plate's apart may even have elevated that area for some time until there was enough expansion material and it was far enough away from the then very active rift through ocean spread to settle back down (this over a longer time illustrates how south america a relatively thin continenent to it's length has tilted back and forth over geological time), Of course there may have been a shallow contintal sea in areas but there is no evidence that those area's were submerged before the atlantic was born or that the whole shelf area was beneath water at that time.

What I said to remind you and perhaps explain it is this.

For a very crude analogy Take large a raft made thin and of flexible wood and build, place a large weight on one side, it goes down with the other side moving up out of the water a little, the raft is flexible so the rise is not as severe as the depression and is more caused by displacement under the raft and it's own bouyancy than mechanical lever action and it is compensating for the displacement of the water beneath the raft which is also spread out sideway's as well as toward the opposite end, place the weight in the centre and the side's rise up a bit while the centre sink's (Greenland but that is almost all covered so does not elegantly display this, still there are mountains that would rival the himalaya's beneath that ice pushed down by it's weight just as there are in antarctica mountains that would rival the alp's).

Now for comparison Take a continental plate and place two to four miles of ice covering million's of square miles as a frozen ocean far above sea level in places and it pushes the plate down in it's local area but it also caused a displacement of subcrustal material (Magma is dense and hard under that pressure but still evidences massive plasicity and will flow in a viscous fluid manner), That displacement will be most evidenced at area's where the crust is lighter, ie the sea where the magma is driven toward by the lower thiner crustal pressure and so the bulge of magma in that area though not permanent will cause that part of the thinner crust to rise.

Now this is simple physic's mate but do you have an alternative, it is often forgotten in calculations and imagining's of sea level for an area (there maps are not as accurate as they could be) and not taken into account but it can add quite a massive amount to the relative depth of now submerged area's and of course several ice age's, several variation's in flow displacement mean that some area's are now under water that avoided it at previous interglacial period's such as the english channel which is still sinking today (as scotland formerly under ice is rising) but once hosted a mighty river into which the Thame's was merely a tributory, emptying in a delta north west of spain and south east of Ireland.

This is simple geological fact and the problem for you guy's is and remains that you disagree that humanity may be older than it is percieved to be by a hell of a way not the simple fact that this was once land that had land fauna upon it.

By the way I believe that those tool's and implement's such as stone pestle and mortar are very highly unlikely to have been carried by a native america ten thousand years ago who fell dead at that spot, did the mountain then fall on him, Miners dug them out.

What I would accept however is the possibility of a cave, miners seeking gold often followed pre existant ancient cave systems as a short cut, water deposits gold in stream's so they also look to deep caves in area's where water has flowed and gold has been found by panning, prior to modern mining this would seem common sense as a rich deposit of water born gold could exist deep in the cave where the water has hit a bend and deposited it's gold load (though it is easier to pan a river in the clear air and natural light, now of course they look in quartzite bearing load's for gold deposits', they did then as well of course but not the pan miner's and some of them discovered very large seam's which were being weathered out by water erosion.

By the way you know there is rumored to be more gold in south america left in the ground to control it's price than all the gold we have dug up so far, so much it would devalue the gold catastrophically.

a reply to: LABTECH767

I think we are missing one another point of reference there is a Doggerland bank which were once the Doggerland hills and there is a Doggerland which is the plain that once connected what is now northern Europe with what is now England.

Image of Doggerland

I'm going to go back and re-read the original source again, I did so many decades ago let me do that and I'll comment later.

Edited to add

Okay reread that material. The later claims were making several mistaking one of mistaking mining to mean tunnel mining when it was hydraulic mining; that Whitney only reported was he was told about and the main claims seems to be a confused rehash of the Calaveras skull hoax which was allegedly found in a gold mine. It was found to later be around 1,000 years old.

I won't comment on your geological musing as that is an area I have little expertise in.

a reply to: Hanslune

Fair enough, and a good answer so I will accept that concerning the skull as in past I have come up against some pretty good arguments from yourself and Harte concerning how item's such as the Coso Geode a 1920's champion spark plug were mis-dated, in that particular case the concretion formed after the spark plug was tossed away and probably came from a generator used in a near by mine working, the dating problem occured when the concretion was dated or rather a piece of the material it had been encased in was dated, the date was more or less correct for the material sampled but not the spark plug so as in other unrelated dating controversy's such as the Turin Shroud the material dated was not representative of the item in question.

Of course we are all engaged in conjecture and theory, fact's stated as such are often based on supporting evidence that is made relevant only by other established theory('s) as non of us were there to witness it first hand, that being said it is a lively and interesting field of debate.

One other thing Hanslune You are a good Skeptic, a good skeptic builds the debate and is constructive in the search for knowledge and as you and harte both know a good skeptic is essential to keeping ATS alive, would so many people post idea's here if every one was a yes man or yes woman, would that ever help the search for the truth?.

Geology is a dry subject to an outsider but is more interesting the more you look into it, of course most paleantologists are by dint of there subject matter and discipline cross discipline expert's in stratification and know as much about that geological process as most dedicated geologists, some archeaologist's are also somewhat expert in interpretation of alluvial deposit's but of course they are not the most exact of sciences as you would expect when dealing with great time interval's and period's.

In my opinion though never trust a geologist who work's for a government or a fracking interest, not to sound cynical I live near to Southport just over the county boundary in Lancashire England, the underlying material is shale, light porous sand stone, clay and soft gravel's with no solid Rock for a hell of a depth, there are some houses off the A570 road that enter's southport not far from me that are subsiding simply because of traffic vibration as there piling's only slowed the effect and some houses that looked like the fun house at an amusement park they were nearly 30 degree's off the horizontal have been demolished only a few years ago, now we have plonker's in our parliament permitting shale gas extraction in the area, there have already been small earthquakes off the fylde coast with what they have done already and that was only test fracking, the truth is when money talk's common sense walk's, they have estimated it will be worth billion's but the damage to property's and infrastructure will cost billion's so I really think they have there priority's wrong.

Still not far from here is a small hill called Dalton hill between the new town of Skelmersdale and the old town of Wigan, at it's peak is a monument near to an elizabethan warning beacon (hence it is locally called the Beacon Hill), except for it's hard sandstone core, this is further inland than southport, it look's like a dromoden with rounded rolling form, has hosted a norman mot and bailey, a iron age hill fort and was the scene of a battle during the English Civil war with metal detector enthusiasts having dug up musket ball's on the challenging golf course (Sloped on the side of a hill) that skirt's part of it.

Geology help's to explain the structure and how it was eroded by the Ice, the west part of Scotland a hundred or so miles north is another interesting region, it is ancient beautiful and rugged landscape and despite the ice age it seem's to have emerged little changed perhaps being one of the most ancient landscaped in britain, when you look at our hill's that we call mountains in britain it is sobering to remember they are merely the stubb remains and exposed heart's of once mighty peak's that time beyond the human reason has worn down, there grand old magestic rolling form is hardly a challenge to someone who has known true mountains but they are nevertheless a beautiful scence and I would have once recommended a summer holiday to hike the lake district (too many people do it these day's), we have some wonderful limestone country too but pot holing make's me claustrophobic so I have not done that for many year's and have no intention of ever doing it again, as I pointed out jokingly to Harte I somewhat rotund these day's so rock climbing is another sport I no longer intend to ever attempt again though I once free climbed a little but not in the league of some dedicated outdoorsmen.

What I am saying is geology is everywhere, it is a wonderful subject even if boring as a subjet it is not as a discipline and how many lives have been lost because of settlement built on poor geology and today more than ever as population boom's it is a more and more needed skill in the third world where fresh drinking water is becoming scarce, there are vast untapped aquafers below ground that not only can provide fresh water but also turn desert's green again (of course there is the fact of the reduced pressure and subsidence when that water is removed but it is more important in those cases).

a reply to: LABTECH767

Thanks Labtech that interesting piece. As for being skeptical I would love to find an unknown civ which is why in the time before the internet I had all of Corliss' books and other materials. I remember looking thru the dry archaeological publications looking that the pottery finds of the western med - looking to see if their was a common element there to support the Atlantis story.

I still find the following mysterious or of interest:

Where did the Etruscan's come from
What does Linear A say
How did the Indonesian get to Madagascar or perhaps more correctly why did they settle only there and not elsewhere on the coasts and islands?
The purpose of the Sajama lines
The culture behind the Tartaria tablets
What happened to the people of Catalhuyuck
What was happening during the time of Nevali cori and the other ten or sites in the upper reaches of the fertile crescent 9-10000 years ago
Who were the Jomon
What were the folks doing in Hungary about 25-35k years ago
....and what I did most of my research on the transition from hunting equipment to man killing equipment.
Etc.

a reply to: Hanslune

The Etruscan's, we only really know of them from there tomb's and Rome which of course was for a time a vassel state of the Etruscan empire, it was from them that the Arch was inherited but it reached it's peak as far as we know under the Roman's before the invention of the Gothic arch, still we mis identify the arch as Roman when in fact it was the Etruscans who gave it to us (Through the Romans).

I could not even hazard a guess but they are interesting but almost totally eclipsed by Roman history.

The Jomon are interesting as well, there are indiginous Japanese (The Ainu) whom are thought to be there descendant's and while they still have the asiatic epithelial fold of the eye or mongoloid eye they have large noses compared to other cino/oriental people's, black curly hair and are though of course mixed with the later korean originated Japanese a seperate race, if the Yonoguni structure was shaped by the hand of man then it was probably there ancestor's, Zen has many trait's inherited from pre buddhist religion's and some of those aspect's may also be inherited from there earlier and forgotten culture, rock worship and nature spirit's are important with and may explain the origin of certain cultural practices.

I am part Maori so would of course say the Indonesian's sailed to Madagascar (and there is some anecdotal evidence that the Polynesians may have originated in India) but then there is the mystery of the Lemur's, they do not swim, they are eaten by many cultures but make poor pet's and are hard to keep as well as difficult to transport so how did they get scattered accross such vast number's of unconnected island's and long enough ago to have grown into different sub species that are quite incompatible with one another now, maybe the indonesians did settle other site's but were not successful and were removed by older indiginous people or assimilated to the point any trace is undetectable, Tsunami's may have wiped out many settlement also in that time period especially on smaller lower island's where animal's sometime's survive what we humans do not, especially during smaller population period's.

Linear A appears highly complicated with complex glyphs so maybe as cypher breaking program's become more and more complex a computer algorythm might translate where a human has failed though since a human has to check each translation that is unlikely but perhap's a tomb may one day be found with more extensive inscriptions and if so the more the better for translation, look how long it took to figure a little of linear B.

I could not even guess at the Sajama line's, they are overshadowed in my own general knowledge by the less extensive but more pictorial Nazca line's, why are these not better known, thank's for that Hanslune but I am sure all the usual suspects have been suggested such as ceremonial sky worship, calander use perhaps by reading the lines from mountain sides at various times of year in respect to the shadow of a sacred peak or similar.

I suspect Catalhuyuck was not alone but a single of many such settlement's and perhaps traded with other culture's, we may never know but that part of the world even then saw massive tribal migration, being a hunter gatherer society though maybe there staple game dissapeared or being a close knit society in what was essentially a single building perhaps an ancient plague, they built that way for perhaps defence?.

That is the first time I have heart of the Tartaria Tablet's but as you know romania is a rich site for archeaologists, I am not sure about it being the earliest writing as if I remember similar but more complex glyphs were once found on a carved mamoth tusk and they were not regarded as writing, at least not phonetic but symbolism is alway's a form of communication so by that argument cave painting's could be regarded as a precursor to heiroglyph's in there function but obviously standardised abstract writing and heiroglyph's arose much later as far as the orthodox view is concerned.

Those site's at the fertile crescent you mention are new to me as well so once again I could not even guess, I will brush up on that out of interest.

Hungary is a place also of interesting archeology but I know nothing of that interglacial period but more recent of course the Roman's crushed a small competing kingdom and virtually eradicated it then the Hun settled it, loving it for it's stepp like grass land's, apparently some pretty good wine is produced there today.

What I would like to know is given the fact we know from more recent history and of course taking into account dissemination of knowledge, was there any other farming before the fertile crescent civilizations, there are of course claims from china and japan of ancient rice paddy's but how much of that is based on national pride and racial prejudice, the han for example view themselves as the superior human race so it would be a matter of pride to say to the middle east, "We never learned from you", look how they ignored the white mummy's for so long.

Still I believe they found a wooden knife and fork about 5000 years old according to something once read and chop sticks are great for losing weight (at least in my hand's).

All of your questions are genuine mysteries, they are also orthodox mystery's, for me the linear indentations in the rock of malta as well as the hypogeum, the underwater canal's and stone arched bridges over some of them, the submerged quaries that may indicate very early date's for some of the architecture and a rumoured stone wall on a submerged moutain in the wester med that is supposed to be made up of blocks bigger than the great stone of baalbeck are though not proven interesting.

I would like to know more about the great advanced culture of the minoan's who had complex plumbing and surprisingly more modern living than anything until the time of the Roman's, it would be nice to know if there civilization would have spread it's culture and innovations had thera not exploded pitching the ancient world of the mediterranean into a dark age, perhaps they did survive in some colony somewhere and perhaps they inspired later cultures.

I would also like to know if Archimede's actually managed to burn roman ship's with mirror's or if it was merely to dazzle them while archers hidden by the light attacked with fire arrow's from small boat's.

Who know's what was lost in the library of alexandria but it is a crime to forget how alexander after whom the city and library where named burned persepolis to the ground along with it's great store house of knowledge, so that persia would never rival greece again, persepolis had perhaps surpassed greece but then like when rome finally took carthage following hannibals tactical error's they found a city that was rome's rival and perhaps even greater than Rome so they burned it to the ground and then salted the earth, with the carthaginians and there baby sacrifice cult out of the way though Rome blossomed, we often think of the fall of Rome but even we who draw our heritage from Nordic raiders as well have to acknowledge the legacy of that empire, many modern citys in europe and there road's are re used roman site's, how would our civilization have progressed without that little leg up.