It's not being questioned enough....

a reply to: thesneakiod

Religious "faith" without evidence is normally brought about by upbringing but that doesn't represent the entirety of people who are religious. Religious beliefs are also spurred by divine personal gnosis experiences, things you can't convince somebody to not believe in.

Try convincing a person who believes they were abducted that there is no such thing as aliens. There's no proof that there are aliens yet we don't really tell these abduction experiencers this because we know it's pointless. Same thing with religion.

You can't convince a person who has a daily relationship with their deity that there's no such thing. It's also something you will never ever understand unless you experience it yourself which is nearly impossible while maintaining a closed perspective such as yours.

The good news? It doesn't matter if you do or don't. It's your dime and your growth. Perhaps this incarnation is one where you need to learn to live without a divine connection. And that's the rub: you participate in a divine construct whether or not you want to.

originally posted by: Cuervo
a reply to: thesneakiod


Try convincing a person who believes they were abducted that there is no such thing as aliens. There's no proof that there are aliens yet we don't really tell these abduction experiencers this because we know it's pointless. Same thing with religion.

You can't convince a person who has a daily relationship with their deity that there's no such thing. It's also something you will never ever understand unless you experience it yourself which is nearly impossible while maintaining a closed perspective such as yours.

But we have evidence of aliens and Ufos. Not matter how flimsy or substantial or if you believe or not. It's still something to at least be able to look at objectively. But believing in god is a whole different matter, it's based on faith and faith alone. It's something that not everyone can experience other by nearly dying or a supernatural event has to happen to them. Or even worse, they believe in god because their parents and everyone around them did when they were a kid, and grew up not questioning it. Or too scared to.

And I certainly haven't got a closed perspective. If I did, why would I even be on this site?

a reply to: thesneakiod

And to believe in the total absence of God requires the same amount of faith. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

I'm not going to claim I can prove God. I don't have to. I've experienced Him, continue to experience Him. I have faith. Faith is sufficient.

Conversely, you claim there is no evidence of God. You've never experienced Him, believe you won't experience Him. You have faith, and that faith is sufficient.

originally posted by: thesneakiod

originally posted by: Cuervo
a reply to: thesneakiod


Try convincing a person who believes they were abducted that there is no such thing as aliens. There's no proof that there are aliens yet we don't really tell these abduction experiencers this because we know it's pointless. Same thing with religion.

You can't convince a person who has a daily relationship with their deity that there's no such thing. It's also something you will never ever understand unless you experience it yourself which is nearly impossible while maintaining a closed perspective such as yours.

But we have evidence of aliens and Ufos. Not matter how flimsy or substantial or if you believe or not. It's still something to at least be able to look at objectively. But believing in god is a whole different matter, it's based on faith and faith alone. It's something that not everyone can experience other by nearly dying or a supernatural event has to happen to them. Or even worse, they believe in god because their parents and everyone around them did when they were a kid, and grew up not questioning it. Or too scared to.

And I certainly haven't got a closed perspective. If I did, why would I even be on this site?

I've seen no evidence for UFOs that hasn't been explained away sufficiently enough to doubt. But I know people who have been abducted and I believe them. A religious person can come up with the same kind of evidence that a UFO person can: first-hand stories, second-hand stories, fuzzy photos of aliens or angels, stories of miracles, NDEs, abductions, etc. Heck, the Abrahamic faiths still have an intact history book recording a huge portion of their religious exploits!

The details behind the beliefs (specific religious denominations and specific UFO theories like that Ashtar jazz) is of course up for grabs and can't all be 100% right so we aren't really talking about specifics; we are talking about the general belief in the existence of these things.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: thesneakiod

And to believe in the total absence of God requires the same amount of faith. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

I'm not going to claim I can prove God. I don't have to. I've experienced Him, continue to experience Him. I have faith. Faith is sufficient.

Conversely, you claim there is no evidence of God. You've never experienced Him, believe you won't experience Him. You have faith, and that faith is sufficient.

That's not a faith though is it. I grew up believing in god, till I could think for my self. And I made a rational decision based on what I know, and only what I know. It wasn't based on a experience. I could be swayed if I did have a religious experience of some sort. I'm not saying that it will never be proved to me that gods real. I just can't grasp the fact that it happens to anyone full stop.

But at this moment in time, I don't believe in god, not based on my own personal faith.

a reply to: Cuervo

Any pictures of god though? Any evidence of the governments of the world covering it up?

Probably not. And someone who believes in god doesn't care about things like that anyway. Because besides an epiphany that the odd person gets, most just blindly believe.

No one from the sky ever said "I'm god" It all began with one man with an idea. That's all this "god" thing is based on.

originally posted by: thesneakiod
a reply to: southbeach

So why did you get one and not everyone else? Why wouldn't god give us all a spiritual experience to get us all on board?

I had mine. I recognized it for what it was.

Maybe it does happen to all of us. It could be that people just don't recognize it when it presents. Perhaps it is being willingly blind. Who can say?

originally posted by: thesneakiod
a reply to: Cuervo

Any pictures of god though? Any evidence of the governments of the world covering it up?

Probably not. And someone who believes in god doesn't care about things like that anyway. Because besides an epiphany that the odd person gets, most just blindly believe.

People claim that pictures show angels all the time. And as far as cover-ups, religion is one huge conspiracy-nut fantasy, filled with different faiths covering up one-another's and destroying artifacts, hiding ancient texts, etc. It's every bit as much a "cover-up" as UFOlogy is.

And to say that people who believe in a god doesn't care about things like that is sort of silly. Most UFO nuts I know are also Christians (though most of them have their own twists).

originally posted by: thesneakiod
No one from the sky ever said "I'm god" It all began with one man with an idea. That's all this "god" thing is based on.

That may be what many religions are based on but not the concept of there being divine aspects to our universe. That comes naturally to many people, like an instinct or a sense. And just like our sense of sight, some people are colorblind. And that's totally fine. This isn't your first rodeo and it won't be your last.

a reply to: thesneakiod

Sure it is faith. You have no evidence, none, that God does not exist any more than I have proof that he does. No one really does. Just pointing to everything that science knows (or thinks it knows) is no body of evidence arguing for God's lack of existence. That's an idea you made up for yourself and share with others. In order to believe that our limited scientific body of knowledge is sufficient to the sum total of everything in the universe to satisfy the idea that God does not exist is simply ignoring the sheer volume of what we do not know and do not know we do not know about the universe ... and that's before we even get into the idea of what may or may not lie beyond the universe. Given all of that ... you very much have to have faith that nowhere in all that sheer mass of the unknown is God.

Another way to look at it is this: For how many hundreds/thousands of years did we stumble around trying to treat disease without a knowledge of microorganisms? We didn't even know what we didn't know, but that didn't make bacteria and viruses any less real.

a reply to: ketsuko

It's not up to me to prove that god isn't real. Nor I suppose is it up to you prove that god exists.

But god is in our lives from a very early age. And it's up to the individual to decide if you want to take it into adulthood.

But what if you were never brought up hearing about god?
What if no one ever did? I'll guess that if it was never spoke of all those years ago, god in people's minds would never exist.

Again supernatural encounters aside, which might not even be anything spiritual, god in my opinion is just a fabric of people's imagination stemmed from everybody else doing the same thing, and that's from our parents or other means..

This thread wasn't made in the hope that someone could prove to me that god exists, but more Why god exists. And why do we need the idea of it in such a ultra modern society that we live in.

Through my life while I was making my own decisions, my own choices, I never felt god by my side. But I didn't need it, because I had my family and friends around me. But if I didn't have them, in times of despair, would I have turned to god?

Maybe that's the reason people mostly believe in god? The fact they have no one to help guide them or they themselves don't have a strong mental attitude to help make the right decisions in life, that an all powerful being could be the answer.

a reply to: thesneakiod

But here's the thing ... if human life originated the way people postulate through evolution, then there very much a time when there was no God to our primordial ancestors ... So where did He come from? Either someone made Him up out of nothing and the idea caught on like sliced bread as just about every civilization ever has some notion or concept of something greater, spirituality -or- He was always there and we instinctively know it on some level and seek to explain it in some way.

Perhaps there would be a lot the more intelligent critters we share our world with could tell us if only we could talk ... Surely, if what you postulate is true, they would have no concept of spirituality or a God.

a reply to: thesneakiod

Maybe we who believe do so because we've experienced something you simply haven't?

a reply to: thesneakiod

Check your U2Us, don't worry, I'm not preachy, enjoy.

As to God the proof is in the pudding, give it a go. And the "Why", well that's the mystery now isn't it? I have personal beliefs that I can't back up. Overall it is all good. I agree with FlyersFan and all the other members who have experienced the same.

Best Wishes,

STM

a reply to: thesneakiod

Text Ok. After all these years I'm still confused why someone believes in god.

You are probably right. It's up in the head type thing called theology. It's nice to not be afraid of death but one day all are going to be there. Wherever or whatever it is. Maybe that is why we have gods. It might be a way to cushion the mind knowing that one day we all will be nothing but cow chips in a barn yard type thing.

originally posted by: thesneakiod

originally posted by: WeAreAllTheSame
Maybe God exists....maybe he doesn't.

Who are we to know the answers?

The important thing is how you treat others.

Remember, it ripples..

But that's the question I'm asking? Where has this ideology of god come from?

From man.

The pagens sort of had it right. They worshipped the land and sea and the sun the stars and each other. They gave thanks to what they could see, what was right in front of them. To then say it's some entity that made and controlled it all is absurd.

I'll apply the scientific method of observation to Paganism to expose a glaring contradiction in their beliefs, just to show you how absurd their beliefs really are. The simple reason why they worship the dirt they stand on is because they believe that god resides in all things, so therefore that makes nature worth worshiping since nature essentially is god. Most of these religions will make such a claim and then do a complete 180 and state that God is "unknowable". This goes for the Wiccan faith as well, which has a similar relationship to paganism as to psychiatry has to psychology. They also state their "supreme god' is ultimately "unknown" and is of little concern to them.

Its the same case with Gnosticism, who also espouse similar pantheistic beliefs about their "supreme god" who they call "the Monad" or "the one" and also Yahweh who they refer to as the "the maker" of the material world, of which they claim was made in the image of "the makers" own flawed image. They are claiming that we can see God in nature, yet "god" is unknown at the same time. Well, you can't have it both ways, if "god" as they call him is "unknown", then they have no right at all to claim that "god" resides in anything at all. Since "god" is unknown, then their entire belief about "god" should have ended there. This is the key difference between Bible based Christianity, where we know who and what God is, which has nothing in common with nature and the rest of the world with its conflicting materialistic beliefs.

a reply to: BlackManINC

Not really a contradiction though, the pagens literally worshipped the ground they walked on. But I don't believe they thought it was a god like we now do. They thought nature was a gift, that can only come from some higher power. And in a sense it does.

We, well some, believe that the god we know can actually integrate with our lives, and cause miracles here on earth. And even punish or reward you after you die.

Why this is a belief, with no evidence to either suggest that it actually even happens, to me, only means the notion was invented to make us either not rise up to our so called leaders or stop us going insane if "this" is all it is.

I don't need a god to be a good person. Apart from the odd rule, the commandments are a good way to live your life by. I just don't see the need to be threatened to follow them...

a reply to: thesneakiod

OP,

So we are weak minded because we are on the opposite end of the spectrum from you? What proof do you have that it was not God? Now you say its a sign of madness or the weak minded, and yet once again I could just turn that ad hominem right back at you. Those type of claims do nothing to further your argument, so I guess I will have to go with the broad statement that we have zero proof that anyone or anything controls this universe, judges us, .ect...

I would like to point out it was Christianity that gave rise to Science. It never used to be about Science or God. I believe the two can coexist.


So lets start with no evidence that anyone or anything controls the universe. Well i wouldn't say you have evidence of control you have evidence of design. Everything is very precise and finely tuned in nature.

Evidence:

Fine Tuning of the Physical Constants of the Universe
Parameter Max. Deviation
Ratio of Electrons

rotons 1:10^37
Ratio of Electromagnetic Force:Gravity 1:10^40
Expansion Rate of Universe 1:10^55
Mass Density of Universe^1 1:10^59
Cosmological Constant 1:10^120

These numbers represent the maximum deviation from the accepted values, that would either prevent the universe from existing now, not having matter, or be unsuitable for any form of life.

The ripples in the universe from the original Big Bang event are detectable at one part in 100,000. If this factor were slightly smaller, the universe would exist only as a collection of gas - no planets, no life. If this factor were slightly larger, the universe would consist only of large black holes. Obviously, no life would be possible in such a universe.

Another finely tuned constant is the strong nuclear force (the force that holds atoms together). The Sun "burns" by fusing hydrogen (and higher elements) together. When the two hydrogen atoms fuse, 0.7% of the mass of the hydrogen is converted into energy. If the amount of matter converted were slightly smaller—0.6% instead of 0.7%— a proton could not bond to a neutron, and the universe would consist only of hydrogen. With no heavy elements, there would be no rocky planets and no life. If the amount of matter converted were slightly larger—0.8%, fusion would happen so readily and rapidly that no hydrogen would have survived from the Big Bang. Again, there would be no solar systems and no life. The number must lie exactly between 0.6% and 0.8% (Martin Rees, Just Six Numbers).

www.godandscience.org...

So there is a little bit of evidence of a designed universe.

Just a bit more of fun, Scientist estimate there are 10^82 atoms in the known universe. You lacking the belief of a creator believe that 0 ^ infinite power(science says the big bang happened from a point of infinite density) = 10^82 (at the very least). We can simplify that to 0(as no matter how many times you multiple zero by zero you get zero)=10^82. This is mathematically absurd so maybe atheism is for the insane and weak minded?

Now lets get to evidence of a creator of life. Let me start with an analogy to help you understand the argument first as it can be a bit confusing. You are walking along the beach looking for the worlds largest sand castle, and you come across some scratches in the sand. They read " World's Largest Sand Castle One Mile ->." These scratches carry what is known as a semiotic dimension. They portray abstract information to the observer, and also allows the observer to understand that based on the semiotic dimension another form of intelligence put that message there and it was not just random chance.

DNA codes for life. It takes over 3 billion pairs of code to make you and I and everyone we know. We are all advanced biological machines. During protein synthesis, an mRNA strand copies a DNA strand, and carries it to a ribosome the ribosome then decodes a codon(which passes abstract information from a mRNA strand to a ribosome) in order to build a gene. Here again we have semiotic dimension in the code for life. It implies intelligence behind life. There is your evidence.

If religion was invented now people would laugh? I think you are misinformed on the statistics of believers to non-believers.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Not that I understood hardly any of your post (apologies), and I can't reply with any maths on that level but your argument isn't what I made this thread about. I've never mentioned the Big Bang or anything about the design of human life.

And say "something" did create the universe, is that what you're praying to? Some completely unknown entity that may or may not even realise "it" created us?

"It" also didn't think we were that important seeing as dinosaurs and countless other creatures lived on this planet millions of years before us. Why not create man first?

Did we not first spring from the sea and over time become what we now know as man? Why not create a intelligent human first? Why make us evolve from apes? What was the reason or science behind it?

Too many questions....

a reply to: thesneakiod

Not that I understood hardly any of your post (apologies), and I can't reply with any maths on that level but your argument isn't what I made this thread about. I've never mentioned the Big Bang or anything about the design of human life.

You said you didnt understand why people could believe in God, and not be considered insane. I gave you logical evidence that supports the idea of intelligence behind the creation of the universe.

And say "something" did create the universe, is that what you're praying to? Some completely unknown entity that may or may not even realise "it" created us?

Well I believe there is also evidence within our world that proves that the Creator cares about us. For example, If the Creator exist, but does not care about us then why is there a moral law?

No I dont believe we sprang from the sea and over time became man.](I dont disagree with this because it disproves God, because it doesn't. I disagree because I think we need to give Science more time to find out how it actually happened) The springing out of the sea is a hypothesis . The evolution from Ape to Man has no known genetic pathway for which it could operate in. The mathematical probability of evolution occurring as you are saying it does is higher than 1 in 10^50....once again this is mathematically absurd. Are you sure I am the weak minded one?

"It" also didn't think we were that important seeing as dinosaurs and countless other creatures lived on this planet millions of years before us. Why not create man first?

If I am right God died for us? What do you mean he didnt care for us. Look its going to be hard to talk about God with you as you dont seem to have any background knowledge on theology.