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The chemtrails ruined my blue sky! Here's why...

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posted on Jul, 26 2014 @ 03:20 PM
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originally posted by: SubTruth
a reply to: Rob48

I have a question OP can they turn on/off the spraying? I was at work the other day taking a break and noticed a plane in the sky leaving a contrail I just assumed it was normal until it looked like some one took an eraser to part of the trail. This happened a about 5-6 times across the sky. It was like they were turning it on/off.


The area where you see the gaps doesn't have high enough relative humidity for the trail to persist, it's very common.

I photographed this phenomena a few weeks ago. What I noticed was that there was no gap in the trail that was left at all, the gaps appeared as that part of the trail sublimated almost immediately.




posted on Jul, 26 2014 @ 03:24 PM
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originally posted by: Tucket

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Tucket




So why wasnt there any natural cloud formation in the sky at 9am in Robs first pics?



Well if the nuclei isn't there for a cloud to form they won't. Unlike a contrail that creates the nuclei for the contrail to form which is why you didn't see clouds but did see the contrails to form.

Does that help answer your question?


Almost, Surfer. But I also want to know why Contrails continue to form even after there is no heat left for supercooling(the nucleation process).


I really want to know what you mean by "no heat left for supercooling"? Since when did heat provide cooling?

The exhaust comes out at high temperature. The air at that altitude is at about -50°C. That is what supercools it: the cold air.

When the water vapour in the exhaust cools it forms ice crystals. Those are the nucleation sites.



posted on Jul, 26 2014 @ 03:25 PM
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originally posted by: Tucket

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Tucket




So why wasnt there any natural cloud formation in the sky at 9am in Robs first pics?


Well if the nuclei isn't there for a cloud to form they won't. Unlike a contrail that creates the nuclei for the contrail to form which is why you didn't see clouds but did see the contrails to form.



Does that help answer your question?


Almost, Surfer. But I also want to know why Contrails continue to form even after there is no heat left for supercooling(the nucleation process).



I'm sorry but I really don't understand what you mean by "heat......for the supercooling process"?

The supercooling takes place simply because the jet exhaust is emerging into an ambient temperature of minus 30 degrees or so everywhere all around it. Most of the contrail wasn't part of the combustion process at all, it comes from bypass air that moisture condenses out from due to sudden and massive depressurisation, this moisture also freezes along with that from the jet exhaust, which is why contrails from modern engines are thicker than they used to be in decades gone by.

edit on 26-7-2014 by waynos because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 26 2014 @ 04:24 PM
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originally posted by: Rob48

originally posted by: Tucket

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Tucket




So why wasnt there any natural cloud formation in the sky at 9am in Robs first pics?



Well if the nuclei isn't there for a cloud to form they won't. Unlike a contrail that creates the nuclei for the contrail to form which is why you didn't see clouds but did see the contrails to form.

Does that help answer your question?


Almost, Surfer. But I also want to know why Contrails continue to form even after there is no heat left for supercooling(the nucleation process).


I really want to know what you mean by "no heat left for supercooling"? Since when did heat provide cooling?

The exhaust comes out at high temperature. The air at that altitude is at about -50°C. That is what supercools it: the cold air.

When the water vapour in the exhaust cools it forms ice crystals. Those are the nucleation sites.


Yes, that is what I was trying to suggest.. Sorry bout the confusion. ..But my question is how are these nucleation sites repeated long after the exhaust is cooled? How do contrails continue to form clouds in dry air?



posted on Jul, 26 2014 @ 04:37 PM
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a reply to: Tucket

They don't. In dry (low relative humidity) air, the contrails sublimate and vanish. The relative humidity has to be high, or the air moist enough, for contrails to persist or propagate further cloud formation. As rob showed, the RH went up to 90% when this happened. That's not dry air.



posted on Jul, 26 2014 @ 04:48 PM
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a reply to: waynos
According to OP, moisture rolled in at around 10am. Yet he suggests that contrail clouds were forming at around 9.
"Within less than an hour the trails were expanding and merging into cloud."

At this point the air is still dry.



posted on Jul, 26 2014 @ 05:34 PM
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"At this point the air is still dry"

No it isn't. The charts only show 3hr intervals. The first one is 7am, before I woke up. The second one is 10am. By 10am the moisture level was >90%. With air at that temperature you only need about 60-70% RH for contrails to form. That is the point: moister air will cause contrails to form BEFORE clouds will spontaneously form. That is why some people think that contrails are causing the change in weather. I fact they are just a symptom of higher RH.



Don't you see the whole point of my post? At 8am, in dry air, contrails couldn't form. Once the moisture reached a certain level, they could form, and by 10am the air was saturated so they could persist and spread into cirrus.

This photo was taken just after 11am, facing east. You can see the boundary of the moist air. In fact the first sign of it is a large persistent contrail heading roughly north-south!




edit on 26-7-2014 by Rob48 because: (no reason given)

edit on 26-7-2014 by Rob48 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 26 2014 @ 06:07 PM
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a reply to: Rob48

Ah, ok I get it. The second image taken at 10 threw me off. It appeared to me that around nine, there would have been a brown patch right over your house. "dry air." It does look like London still has dry air over it in that picture. It wouldve been nice to see some numbers along with those images.

Anyways, I just went to a weather site and checked the hourly RH for London today..Youre right, Im wrong.


edit: If I lived in a air traffic area I would do this experiment myself, alas, jets rarely fly over where I am.


edit on 26-7-2014 by Tucket because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 26 2014 @ 06:42 PM
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originally posted by: waynos



The supercooling takes place simply because the jet exhaust is emerging into an ambient temperature of minus 30 degrees or so everywhere all around it. Most of the contrail wasn't part of the combustion process at all, it comes from bypass air that moisture condenses out from due to sudden and massive depressurisation, this moisture also freezes along with that from the jet exhaust, which is why contrails from modern engines are thicker than they used to be in decades gone by.


parts of the combustion process exacerbate the lingering of contrails, in supercooling that requires a trigger, particulates from engine exhausts like carbon black, scavenged metals and unknown novel chemicals after combustion all in the mix, does just that. That includes behaviour of proprietory additives, after they have gone through the high temperatures of combustion, and if you don't know what goes in..you don't know what might come out. By default, jet engines are chemically active in their own right, in an environment more delicate than ground level and are still being studied. That is a need to know before anyone can speak about 'Chemtrails'
Yet and all David Keith is prepared to make something that is bad enough, much much worse..and he is not a maverick, or put it another way, he is a maverick among mavericks except of course, his way is better.



Most people would have a bitter taste in their mouth after that video. There is irony there too, in the way that scientists are allowed to scaremonger, when the plebs are told to STFU. Anyway he is pretty much destroyed as a plausible guy in the conversation.

BTW the interviewer is Tim Sebastian, not Stephen Sackur. I don't think Sackur could have done better.
edit on 26-7-2014 by smurfy because: Text.



posted on Jul, 26 2014 @ 08:34 PM
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a reply to: Rob48

Once again another thread created by skeptics. Baiting people to debate chemtrails. Perpetuating the very "hoax" he claims to be against.

The OP does not "believe" in chemtrails. Yet he of course uses the term in his title in a disingenuous manner.

It's another technique of the "professional debunker". Use sensationalism in your thread title to bait and switch your opposition.

Allowing them to then spread more propaganda and lies to the uninformed and indoctrinated masses.



The small amount of ice in the exhaust provides nucleation sites for cloud.


Still spreading your same old lies I see. It's not the small amount of ice in the exhaust.

It's the large amount of pollution in the exhaust that provides the nucleation sites.



posted on Jul, 26 2014 @ 08:47 PM
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a reply to: smurfy
I'm not in the mood to watch 24 minutes of that. Can you just tell me if anyone in the video mentioned anything about Rob's OP?



posted on Jul, 26 2014 @ 08:55 PM
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That's why there is a short gap after the engines with no visible trail: the exhaust is too hot at first.


That is what you would think the exhaust is to hot and the trail will form some distance behind the plane but watch for a period of months and see how many times you notice a trail forming right at the exhaust tail



posted on Jul, 26 2014 @ 10:58 PM
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originally posted by: MagicWand67
a reply to: Rob48

Still spreading your same old lies I see. It's not the small amount of ice in the exhaust.

It's the large amount of pollution in the exhaust that provides the nucleation sites.


I think you have your amounts back to front. Burning one tonne of jet fuel produces about one and a quarter tonnes of water. It produces about 20 grams (less than one ounce) of solid soot.

That is, more than 60,000 times more water than soot.

When a persistent contrail forms, it is because water from the atmosphere freezes onto the ice crystals in the exhaust. If you want to be very pedantic then you could argue that yes, those ice crystals originally nucleated on minuscule soot particles. But by the time they have grown enough to attract water from the atmosphere and form a contrail, they are essentially pure ice.


Once again another thread created by skeptics. Baiting people to debate chemtrails.


Not baiting anybody. The purpose of this thread was quite clear: explaining exactly WHY persistent contrails can appear suddenly in a clear blue sky and persist.

Some people apparently find this suspicious, or evidence that they cannot be contrails. The truth is simple and can be explained by one word: HUMIDITY.

You say you are not a chemtrail believer. Fine. Good. In that case you should know all this stuff. This thread was aimed at educating those who don't: those who think something is being "switched on" or "sprayed". If you don't subscribe to that theory then we have nothing to argue about.


edit on 26-7-2014 by Rob48 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 26 2014 @ 11:39 PM
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a reply to: Rob48

You've already created 2 recent threads on the same topic.

A nice demonstration that chemtrail = H2O
Rob48started this topic on Jul 02, 2014

EXPERIMENT: Can I forecast "chemtrails"?
Rob48started this topic on Jul 03, 2014


Was it really necessary to create a 3rd thread with a hoax title?

This is just SPAM now. This thread should be put in the trash bin.


edit on 26-7-2014 by MagicWand67 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 26 2014 @ 11:59 PM
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a reply to: MagicWand67
Explaining the science behind contrails is spam now? And what does your post add exactly?



posted on Jul, 27 2014 @ 01:09 AM
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a reply to: Rob48

I want you to explain your hoax title.

What does that contribute?



posted on Jul, 27 2014 @ 02:15 AM
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a reply to: MagicWand67

The persistence of a contrail depends only on the relative humidity present. If the RH is too low, the trail vanishes and nothing that's in the exhaust can affect that. Trails may form sooner, or in more marginal conditions, with HBPR engines, but persistence hasn't changed. You seem to be suggesting that there are unknown additives in jet fuel? You'd need to clarify that a bit more as the contents of jet fuel are known, published and also strictly controlled, AFAIK. Why do you think there are these additives that can make trails more persistent present?

You've also included a video which has been shown on here several times, but which is about SRM theories ( which I think most of us view with suspicion and would rather weren't carried out), not aircraft contrails. You clearly think it relevant, can you explain why?

Does anything in the video pertain to this discussion?

ETA Apologies to Magic Wand. This is a reply to Smurfy's post above.


edit on 27-7-2014 by waynos because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 27 2014 @ 02:23 AM
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a reply to: Rob48

So let me get this straight.

You want us to forget that airplanes are spewing out toxic and other harmful gases in their exhaust.

You want everyone to focus on the water in the exhaust.

And how the water contributes to these man made clouds that spread out causing global warming.

But you want us to blame Mother nature for those man made clouds that cause global warming.

It's not the fault of your industry that these man made clouds cause global warming.

It's mother natures fault that planes fly through the air polluting our environment.

Way to go.



posted on Jul, 27 2014 @ 02:25 AM
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a reply to: waynos




You've also included a video which has been shown on here several times, but which is about SRM theories ( which I think most of us view with suspicion and would rather weren't carried out), not aircraft contrails. You clearly think it relevant, can you explain why?

Does anything in the video pertain to this discussion?


What the heck are you talking about? I haven't posted any video.

Are you talking about Smurfy's video with David Keith?



posted on Jul, 27 2014 @ 02:34 AM
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a reply to: MagicWand67

Yes I am, sorry about that. I'd not even read your post when I hit reply so I don't know how that happened.



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