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U.S. says Russia firing artillery over border at Ukraine military

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posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 12:09 AM
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Obviously, the US satellite photos do not support the Obama regime’s lies. If the White House had any evidence of Russian complicity, it would have released it to great fanfare days ago.
a reply to: thirdcoast




posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 12:13 AM
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originally posted by: ATODASO
something's definitely going down. found this, russian sourced social media leak:

ukraineinvestigation.com...


Russian soldier Vadim Grigorjev published in social network photo proofs on which we see Russia bombing Ukrainian territory. On Wednesday July 23 2:19 pm Grigorjev wrote a post ‘All night we were bombing Ukraine’.


another poster asked where this is happening. according to the article linked above, "Vadim Grigorjev location is 47.637728, 38.858143 or see the map below."

that's right near uspenka.



more proof from social media! NICE!

if Russian soldier put some pictures and said: "we were bombing Ukraine" it must be true of course...

LOL @ #proofs #socialmedia



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 12:18 AM
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so many people often say something like: "oh, dictator-like Putin and his one party and state owned media..."

and that is OK, that is their opinion but what I am really afraid is that the USA is worse while so many people don't even realize.

1984.ish real-time nightmare.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------
regarding should we trust what the US says...
edit on 25America/Chicago07u17 by demus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 12:20 AM
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originally posted by: demus
so many people often say something like: "oh, dictator-like Putin and his one party and state owned media..."

and that is OK, that is their opinion but what I am really afraid is that the USA is worse while so many people don't even realize.

1984.ish real-time nightmare.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------
regarding should we trust what the US says...


And the proles were subdued by alcohol, pornography and sports.



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 12:54 AM
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I just don't understand. This goes into my "Top ten" of goofy threads. Before you misunderstand me, I am NOT saying that anything has been proven, but what has happened to the human ability to come to opinions based on limited evidence, then changing the opinion as more evidence comes in.

Consider the evidence:
1.) Russia has submitted a radar trace (which has been shown to be altered). Attempting to show it was a Ukrainian plane, when it was actually another commercial flight.
2.) They have offered at least three different explanations concerning what happened, including two different planes and a Ukrainian ground-to-air missile.
3.) If it was a Ukrainian air defense missile, someone has to show how although it was in the "area" it was too far away to hit MH17.
4.) The crash scene was tampered with, and the black boxes were removed by the separatists.
5.) No motive, which makes any sense, has been ascribed to Ukrainians, the US, or Europe. (Do you really believe that Ukraine, US, Europe, or any combination thereof, wants to invade Russia?) The US won't invade anybody for any reason, and Europe has refused to go along with even the mild sanctions Obama has imposed.
6.) Russia has no business invading another country while trying to hide it's activities from the world. Putin has admitted that Russian troops were in Ukraine from the very start of the "revolution."

A normal ATSer, strike that, a normal adult, would at least entertain the notion that the Russians, or the separatists which they have supplied, brought the plane down. ATSers believe in Aliens and their space vehicles, that the Vatican rules the world, that RT is a reliable news source, all with far less reason or evidence that there is here.

Is there too much evidence against the Russians for you to accept it? Have they made it too easy for you? Why can't you see at least the possibility of a Russian conspiracy, especially since their invasion of Crimea was a conspiracy itself?

Anything the US says is considered automatically false, which makes me wonder what you would say if the US claimed responsibility. Would that be automatically false, too?

The idea that (supposedly) Russian soldiers post things on social media can be automatically rejected because it's on social media, worries me. Is the only thing you'll accept a handwritten confession by Putin on Kremlin stationery? But, since he's not likely to do that, feel free to claim that "It's never been proven (to our satisfaction) that Russia is involved."

It makes as much sense to say that Westboro Baptist Church found out that the flight was full of AIDS researchers and got upset. They applied to the CIA for support, who flew them into Ukraine and taught them how to bring down the plane, then flew them out the same way.



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 12:57 AM
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originally posted by: charles1952
I just don't understand. This goes into my "Top ten" of goofy threads. Before you misunderstand me, I am NOT saying that anything has been proven, but what has happened to the human ability to come to opinions based on limited evidence, then changing the opinion as more evidence comes in.

Consider the evidence:
1.) Russia has submitted a radar trace (which has been shown to be altered). Attempting to show it was a Ukrainian plane, when it was actually another commercial flight.
2.) They have offered at least three different explanations concerning what happened, including two different planes and a Ukrainian ground-to-air missile.
3.) If it was a Ukrainian air defense missile, someone has to show how although it was in the "area" it was too far away to hit MH17.
4.) The crash scene was tampered with, and the black boxes were removed by the separatists.
5.) No motive, which makes any sense, has been ascribed to Ukrainians, the US, or Europe. (Do you really believe that Ukraine, US, Europe, or any combination thereof, wants to invade Russia?) The US won't invade anybody for any reason, and Europe has refused to go along with even the mild sanctions Obama has imposed.
6.) Russia has no business invading another country while trying to hide it's activities from the world. Putin has admitted that Russian troops were in Ukraine from the very start of the "revolution."

A normal ATSer, strike that, a normal adult, would at least entertain the notion that the Russians, or the separatists which they have supplied, brought the plane down. ATSers believe in Aliens and their space vehicles, that the Vatican rules the world, that RT is a reliable news source, all with far less reason or evidence that there is here.

Is there too much evidence against the Russians for you to accept it? Have they made it too easy for you? Why can't you see at least the possibility of a Russian conspiracy, especially since their invasion of Crimea was a conspiracy itself?

Anything the US says is considered automatically false, which makes me wonder what you would say if the US claimed responsibility. Would that be automatically false, too?

The idea that (supposedly) Russian soldiers post things on social media can be automatically rejected because it's on social media, worries me. Is the only thing you'll accept a handwritten confession by Putin on Kremlin stationery? But, since he's not likely to do that, feel free to claim that "It's never been proven (to our satisfaction) that Russia is involved."

It makes as much sense to say that Westboro Baptist Church found out that the flight was full of AIDS researchers and got upset. They applied to the CIA for support, who flew them into Ukraine and taught them how to bring down the plane, then flew them out the same way.


Where exactly are you getting this information?
edit on 25-7-2014 by Zcustosmorum because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 12:58 AM
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a reply to: lightedhype

This line, that keeps showing up in our media more and more often, sets of my BS detector: "...A U.S. official, who spoke on condition of anonymity..."


edit on 7252014 by CloudsTasteMetallic because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 01:02 AM
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Foreign Policy, with this address:

www.foreignpolicy.com...

Found several films which they have confirmed showing rockets being fired from inside Russian territory on a path going into Ukrainian territory.

Read the article. It's short and explains how they determined it. As far as I can see, the American position is strongly supported, almost proven.



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 01:02 AM
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originally posted by: Vovin

Looks like old pics of abandoned Ukrainian Army artillery pieces taken a long time ago. Where are all the Russian soldiers in the picture? How do we know where this location actually is?


hey, i don't have any skin in this game, and i take the same position i do with most conflicts. i feel badly for the civilians caught in the middle, and i give zero #s about the political cockfights. and i can't vouch for the veracity of the social media account, but here's the photo.



i'm no expert, but those launchers look well maintained, there's a water bottle on one of them, and the shell containers look plenty fresh. google image search confirms that the photo is unique. eta: as for the lack of soldiers, notice the light. pink horizon indicates dawn or dusk, looks more like dawn to me. the soldier who posted it claimed to be shelling at night, so maybe they were wrapped up for the day.


And even if Russia was striking Ukrainian positions, so what? Ukrainian artillery has hit on the Russian side of the border before.


if they're shelling the border, that's another step toward escalating a conflict that's already hot as hell.


edit on 25-7-2014 by ATODASO because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 01:05 AM
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originally posted by: charles1952
Foreign Policy, with this address:

www.foreignpolicy.com...

Found several films which they have confirmed showing rockets being fired from inside Russian territory on a path going into Ukrainian territory.

Read the article. It's short and explains how they determined it. As far as I can see, the American position is strongly supported, almost proven.


Noticed how many times the word "claim" is used there?


More propaganda bullsh*t that proves zilch



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 01:08 AM
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a reply to: Zcustosmorum

Dear Zcustosmorum,

Thanks for asking, but may I narrow your request down a bit? For instance, Number 4 should be known by everyone. And, if you'd like, I'll modify Number 5 to say "I haven't seen, on ATS or anywhere else, a motive which makes . . ."

That leaves us with 1, 2, 3, and 6. Are there any of those you find particularly difficult to believe? If I go back and find the sources, will it make any difference to you? (I'm selfishly just trying to save myself time.)

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 01:12 AM
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originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: Zcustosmorum

Dear Zcustosmorum,

Thanks for asking, but may I narrow your request down a bit? For instance, Number 4 should be known by everyone. And, if you'd like, I'll modify Number 5 to say "I haven't seen, on ATS or anywhere else, a motive which makes . . ."

That leaves us with 1, 2, 3, and 6. Are there any of those you find particularly difficult to believe? If I go back and find the sources, will it make any difference to you? (I'm selfishly just trying to save myself time.)

With respect,
Charles1952


Don't bother, counting how many times the word "claim" is going to be used in your other sources may get boring

edit on 25-7-2014 by Zcustosmorum because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 01:13 AM
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originally posted by: demus

more proof from social media! NICE!


social media is tricky, but you can vet it against other sources like i did. personally, if i see the same story coming from multiple sources, especially if those sources span both sides of the conflict, i tend to think it ups the probability of smoke leading to fire. /shrug



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 01:13 AM
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a reply to: Zcustosmorum

Dear Zcustosmorum,

How about "Proves conclusively?" you saw that in the article didn't you?


Several of the videos, filmed near a pond of some sort, were apparently taken by a resident of the town. A careful perusal of Google Street View reveals that several physical features in the videos match exactly a location in the northwest corner of the town, less than two miles from the Ukrainian border.

The distinctive topography of the lake, the placement of bushes and rocks, the tree line in the background, and a series of evenly spaced light poles that appear in multiple videos and in the Google maps appear to place the rocket launch inside of Russian territory.

A preliminary analysis of the angles in the videos shows that there is almost no way that a Grad rocket launch from this location could miss Ukrainian territory. Yet another video, taken due south of the rocket launch, proves conclusively that these rockets were launched inside Russia and not over the border.


With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 01:16 AM
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a reply to: Zcustosmorum

I'm curious. How do you know what sources I might use, and what they say? Of course, you don't. It appears as though you don't want answers to the questions which you yourself asked. Are you afraid of the answers?

The motto is "Deny Ignorance," not wallow in it.



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 01:17 AM
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originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: Zcustosmorum

Dear Zcustosmorum,

Thanks for asking, but may I narrow your request down a bit? For instance, Number 4 should be known by everyone. And, if you'd like, I'll modify Number 5 to say "I haven't seen, on ATS or anywhere else, a motive which makes . . ."

That leaves us with 1, 2, 3, and 6. Are there any of those you find particularly difficult to believe? If I go back and find the sources, will it make any difference to you? (I'm selfishly just trying to save myself time.)

With respect,
Charles1952


not "particularly hard to believe" doesn't mean it is the truth.

many people don't find particularly hard to believe in aliens; grays or whatever; HAARP influence, CIA assassinations and government disruptions, death squads, mysterious beings, God, Angels, Miracles and so on...

your proofs are not proofs, your proofs are opinions and allegations based on half-information and US-West government statements + "media reports"...
edit on 25America/Chicago0700000043 by demus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 01:19 AM
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originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: Zcustosmorum

Dear Zcustosmorum,

How about "Proves conclusively?" you saw that in the article didn't you?


Several of the videos, filmed near a pond of some sort, were apparently taken by a resident of the town. A careful perusal of Google Street View reveals that several physical features in the videos match exactly a location in the northwest corner of the town, less than two miles from the Ukrainian border.

The distinctive topography of the lake, the placement of bushes and rocks, the tree line in the background, and a series of evenly spaced light poles that appear in multiple videos and in the Google maps appear to place the rocket launch inside of Russian territory.

A preliminary analysis of the angles in the videos shows that there is almost no way that a Grad rocket launch from this location could miss Ukrainian territory. Yet another video, taken due south of the rocket launch, proves conclusively that these rockets were launched inside Russia and not over the border.


With respect,
Charles1952


And that's the best there is?



Several of the videos, filmed near a pond of some sort, were apparently taken by a resident of the town. A careful perusal of Google Street View reveals that several physical features in the videos match exactly a location in the northwest corner of the town


Sounds all rather vague


Additionally, how can someone say "claim" and "apparently" and then in their own words say "proves conclusively", seriously?

Look mate, if more people are going to be getting killed, I don't want vagueries or sensationalist claims, I want cold, hard, concrete solid proof before the bombs and bullets start flying.
edit on 25-7-2014 by Zcustosmorum because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 01:20 AM
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originally posted by: ATODASO

originally posted by: Vovin
if they're shelling the border, that's another step toward escalating a conflict that's already hot as hell.



Yet a country like Israel is allowed to murder 700+ Palestinians because of dubious reasons, officially because of rocket strikes, and Russia is treated to different standards. There is no legitimate basis to judge Russia.



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 01:26 AM
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this is the "proof" US have against Russia.




“I can’t get into the sources and methods behind it,” Harf insisted to Lee’s chagrin. “I can’t tell you what the information is based on,” she said at one point during the back-and-forth.





Harf asked: “If I can’t give you the source and method, would you prefer that I not give you the information?”


and about the MH17:




During a highly publicized intelligence briefing where US officials were expected to present an assessment of MH17 downing on Tuesday, government representatives were forced to admit that no evidence currently points towards any Russian involvement.





Other evidence touted by the administration as supposed proof of Russia’s involvement in the crisis has turned out to be inaccurate, including images purported to show the Russian military fighting alongside an anti-Kiev militia printed by the New York Times later reported to be an “incorrect” representation.


embarrassing fear-mongering, childish propaganda and tactics of a 3-year-old...



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 01:30 AM
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I want to tell something about this social network thing with the soldier telling about shooting Ukraine.

Hacking the accounts is much more common there, on this social network called Vkontakte, which is used by Ukraine, too. These accounts then used for spam, or whatever. The thing i notice here, is that his account was NOT deleted as it is claimed. It was automatically frozen, as it sometimes does when it is hacked. It says something along the lines 'we have frozen the page, because the page is in the malevolent hands, notify the owner please'.

All i imply is: this source can not be trusted so much.



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