Is understanding possible?

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

well thanks for your reply. I take it with great respect that you would take time to answer me

I've said it many times...I was literally just trying to start a general discussion on the topic of true understanding. That's all...as I replied earlier, I KNOW the textbook definitions of things like secondary and all that. I just wanted to see what the folks here felt about these things. I'm just as perplexed as you

I have a Masters in Clinical Psychology and am licensed as an LPC (in a year LCPC and finally in my own practice). Regardless...I agree much with what you said. I feel like you get it...you've been there. though like an LCSW I do not pretend to be an expert on the person. I am here to listen to them and help guide them to THEIR answers...not mine

right now I love my job and I want to keep loving it. I just wanted some simple discussion here about understanding. To answer your questions about me personally...

I typically am an existentialist and feminist therapist...to an extent...I will never pretend to be an expert about those fields. I just use them to frame my work. I also am a big user of CBT because I specialize in anxiety/PTSD/ASD

I am sorry to hear of your break from the field. I wish you the best of course. It sounds like you were quite compassionate. So far, as mentioned, I am able to come home and sleep without thinking about work...will it always be that way? I am not sure yet...

thanks a ton for the reply...I am a pretty good active listener and will continue to 'practice' being so

The answer is very analog, it is such a big combination of factors. Experience is a very profound part of the combination, like a personal message.

Understanding things is so complicated. It is a constant cycle of belief and disbelief as your understanding grows. Rather than trying to understand one subject in a vacuum, try noticing the pattern of all the things experienced. There always seems to be a next level of understanding. Feeling like one really understands something is completely possible so therefore it is possible to 'experience understanding'

a reply to: KyoZero

I have a Masters in Clinical Psychology and am licensed as an LPC (in a year LCPC and finally in my own practice). Regardless...I agree much with what you said. I feel like you get it...you've been there. though like an LCSW I do not pretend to be an expert on the person. I am here to listen to them and help guide them to THEIR answers...not mine

I'm glad to hear that!!....may I ask what school you attended??

My grad school experience was from '99-'02. I left the field in '06, and am ashamed to say I haven't kept up with what the different schools are teaching.

But I have kept up with the science of it all.

I also am a big user of CBT because I specialize in anxiety/PTSD/ASD

CBT is a great technique. It depends (with any technique) on whether the client is on board with the suggestion.

I'm sure you'll do fine, and I'm delighted to hear that the Clinical Psychologist side is coming around to client self-determination.
It wasn't like that 10 years ago.

a reply to: KyoZero

I can only speak from my own experience. My BA is in psychology wiht emphasis on human development and group dynamics. I also have extensive undergrad work in Music and Mathematics.

Most of my Master's work, to date, has been in General Systems Theory mostly as it relates to orgainizations. General systems has been my life's avocation.

I never studied psych in order to be a 'therapist' however I do practise in in the areas of recovery, teaching, and business on an informal level.

As I looked into Psychology as a profession it became clear that 1) I did not agree with certain 'ethical' stances of the profession and that 2) I didn't have the patience to work with most individuals do to my own arronance and bossy nature.

I firmly believe that Psycology has done more harm then good to this point in time as a whole. It is the parent of Propoganda. It's being used to torture and demean people.

However there is the good side too. The newish "Positive Psychology" has outstanding posibilities for personal growth for millions. The energy psychology has wonderful potential for good as well. How this and other (Buddist Psychology, Neuropsychology) techniques will be used 'collectively' on groups and masses of people has yet to be seen.

These discussions are being had in the Psychology Tribe. But in the trenches, with real people seeking solutions none of that matters.

KyoZero's distinction between Psychology and Social Work is valid in this context. And I would agree that Social Work is what is needed - but with extended psychological tools.

Talk therapy is important to get a sense of a client's (or groups) prime modes of acting and thinking. You have to acquire a sense of the 'ground' before applying any possible antidote or making any suggestion. My experience has been to suggest a solution to a given problem before I have a sense and understanding of the context. And that is what I mean by doing harm, unintentionly, but harm none the less.

And no, HarbingrerOfShadows (now let's interprerate that handle), one can never LIVE another's experience but one can and does come to a sense of understanding of a person or group and their perpective if one listens deeply and without judgement.

One of my beefs with Psychology is that (I studied at a very eclectic school) is that many only use the tool they've been taught work and don't find the tool that any given client needs. With a willing client, try out everything that might help until you find the right approach.

You are facilitating the healing not causing it.

As I've said, enjoy the journey.

a reply to: Visitor2012

Dear Visitor,

Let me try a different tack.

We have all felt desperation. Desperation is that combination of fear and dread when we are confronted by a real or perceived existential threat, a threat to our physical or mental safety.

What will cause you to feel this and what will cause me to feel this can be quite different, but we feel the same thing.

I can relate to your feeling of desperation and you to mine. We may not understand the causes of the feeling but the feeling is the same.

Then you can help me to cope with my desperation by sharing how you do it, or what you've heard other people do to productively cope with desperation. You can help me from reacting in an unhelpful and perhaps dangerous manner.

Desperate people do desperate things, we see the desperation all around us in Isreal/Gaza, Russia/Ukraine, the child refugees at the US border.... all examples of poor coping skils of individuals and groups. And on both sides I might add.

a reply to: KyoZero

What do you feel of the world of psychology/therapy/counseling/social work as a whole? Many of these professionals don't have direct experience in what they treat (a lot do...but many don't) Do you feel these people are all doing damage?

If a doc has never experienced something similar, he can't help but operate from an outside observer's perspective. And that's not the best perspective to operate from when it comes to psychology. In my opinion of course.

a reply to: FyreByrd

Desperate people do desperate things, we see the desperation all around us in Isreal/Gaza, Russia/Ukraine, the child refugees at the US border.... all examples of poor coping skils of individuals and groups. And on both sides I might add.

Well the burden is to show how, for example, a desperate, unemployed middle class American who never set foot outside the border can understand and relate to the desperation felt by child refugees in Ukraine. Or how an un-married man, with a black eye, can relate to the pain,suffering and humiliation felt by a female victim of spousal abuse or rape.

How can a person relate to anything with which they had no direct relationship with in the beginning? Wasn't that the main question? I really cut straight to the point in my first post when I said that you have to know the blues to play the blues. Metaphorically speaking, It's not about playing the right notes and copying another blues player..you have to intimately and personally know the subject matter as an existential experience to be any kind of authority on it.

a reply to: Visitor2012

I think I've answered your question sufficiently. You releate to the other's feeling not the phsyical incident(s) that caused that feeling.

I've never been in prision, but I do relate to the feeling of powerlessness of being imprisoned. I get imprisioned in my own thinking - in my own close-minded-ness - those are my prisons.

In many ways it's more a matter of thinking of others more then you think of self, of listening to them and seeking points of common feeling. Then you are communicating.

Again I'll quote Taleg Kyabgon:

"As ordinary sentient beings, we'll never copletely rid ourselves of eoistic thoughts and desires; it's more a question of making an honest assessment of our qualities and gradually reducing our self-obsessive tendencies."

originally posted by: Visitor2012


Well the burden is to show how, for example, a desperate, unemployed middle class American who never set foot outside the border can understand and relate to the desperation felt by child refugees in Ukraine. Or how an un-married man, with a black eye, can relate to the pain,suffering and humiliation felt by a female victim of spousal abuse or rape.

The middle aged white man desparate to feed his family may resort to theft or dealing drugs or seek work in another country. He alone knows how far he will go. Those children desparate to save their lives and avoid gangs, avoid perhaps having to murder others or sell drugs seeks safety in a more, questionably, stable country. Same feeling desparation - different actions.

The beaten man will feel humiliation and frustration, just as the beaten women will. Same feeling - different cause.

As a young women I experienced my best friend blow her own brains out. It was tramatic, to say the least. I thought no one cared, no one understood how retched I felt. I turned away from the very people who were standing beside me to hold my hand through it, because they didn't care. It took a long time to realize, to be open minded enough to see, those people understood my FEELINGS, but could do nothing to change the situation which is what I was looking for. I was looking for magic not understanding. No one could bring her back. They cared, they loved her too but I was too wrapped up in my own misery that I did not see their pain or their understanding. Mostly because I didn't want to. I wanted to be the star - my pain is so deep....... all that crap.

a reply to: FyreByrd

I've never been in prision, but I do relate to the feeling of powerlessness of being imprisoned. I get imprisioned in my own thinking - in my own close-minded-ness - those are my prisons.

Metaphorically, I can understand the relationship, but if you're comparing it to the experience of being in solitary confinement, you haven't even the remotest clue what you're talking about. And I somehow doubt you'd repeat that nonsense to someone who just came out of a 10 year stint.
Nobody is arguing the emotional and psychological benefits of having someone to talk to, someone who listens and cares. But that is not the same thing as understanding.

a reply to: FyreByrd

As a young women I experienced my best friend blow her brains out. It was tramatic, to say the least. I thought no one cared, no one understood how retched I felt. I turned away from the very people who were standing beside me to hold my hand through it, because they didn't care. It took a long time to realize, to be open minded enough to see, those people understood my FEELINGS, but could do nothing to change the situation which is what I was looking for.

They knew you were going through a difficult time, but nobody understood your feelings at any point in time. They didn't then and they don't now. Imagine perhaps....no knowing. The only person who could even remotely understood what you were going through, would be someone who lost their friend in similar circumstances. Noticing someone in a distressed state and reacting to it one way or another is one thing, but knowing what that person is feeling and experiencing? No dice. That's all I'm trying to say.

The beaten man will feel humiliation and frustration, just as the beaten women will. Same feeling - different cause.

This is what I was saying. If you talk about something you have no personal experience with, all you'll do is damage and all you'll cause is confusion in those who trust in what you say. There is no similarity between a man getting a black eye and a woman being attacked and beaten by her own spouse, or getting raped. You simply can't draw any useful parallels between the two.

I had a friend who did the same thing, but I wasn't present and he wasn't my best friend. Yet, still, I have no clue what you went through.

Like I said, being a listener can be a great healing for other people. But that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I thought the original post had to do with understanding and perceiving something that one hasn't experienced personally.

A little off topic, but your OP seems more like, does "everything taste like chicken" in a weird way to me. Like how someone(A) knows what chicken taste, while another person(B) has never had chicken. However, the one(B) person could of eaten something that tastes like chicken, but it was not the experience, or know of having chicken. B nvr tried chicken, B could only imagine.

No different then going to war, and living to tell the tale of thunderous blasts that shake the ground. One could only imagine how the vibrations could of felt.

I guess it all comes to Patience to understand, but I believe there is a fine line between empathy and sympathy when walking in someones shoes.

originally posted by: Visitor2012
a reply to: FyreByrd

I've never been in prision, but I do relate to the feeling of powerlessness of being imprisoned. I get imprisioned in my own thinking - in my own close-minded-ness - those are my prisons.

And I somehow doubt you'd repeat that nonsense to someone who just came out of a 10 year stint.
Nobody is arguing the emotional and psychological benefits of having someone to talk to, someone who listens and cares. But that is not the same thing as understanding.

And yet I have talked to several former convicts about just this subject and find much common ground as do they. And that is the point - finding the common ground allows us to 'understand' and help one another. It precisely the act of acknowleging the common feeling from radically different experience that allows both to expand their experience and empathy.

a reply to: Specimen

That's perception. I can never know what 'green' looks like through another's eyes. We are conditioned to point to a certain color and agree to call it 'green' but who know's how you internally see it or I do.

On a long car trip, my husband and I had a discussion on this sort of topic. He asked, how is it that we have people in positions of power in specific areas, who do not have experience in that specific area?? Like a Minister of Health, who is not a doctor, or a Minister of Culture who has never been involved in the arts? (this is in reference to where we are, in France). Can someone who lacks direct experience make valid judgements?

Upon arriving at our destination, we took up this subject again with our hosts, who happen to be both in the medical industry. The answer we got from one of them (a doctor himself, who rose to higher positions in the medical material industry) was quite thought provoking!

He said that, if you have a doctor become Minister of Health, the concern is that he may come in with a personal bias due to his experience. He may have preferences or ties with certain pharmaceutical companies, for example, which would impact his judgement. The Minister is not acting alone- he is not a head without a body- he is surrounded by a cabinet of professionals who counsel him. Though each one of those might have their individual biases and preferences and point of view, they can point out each others biases, weaknesses and such. It is best that the ultimate judge between them have some distance from the subject personally, in order to cut through all that.

I found that a rather thought provoking and valid point of view. Being too close to something can make you less objective, ad less likely to perceive the globality of a subject.

a reply to: FyreByrd

I'm glad you put the word understand in quotes.

a reply to: Bluesma

It is best that the ultimate judge between them have some distance from the subject personally, in order to cut through all that.

Based on that, who should be responsible for sending people to war? Someone with battle experience or someone with just a PhD in war history?

Who should counsel the vets? People with experience in the battlefield, or just anybody with just a phd in psychiatry with no concept of what war is like?

a reply to: FyreByrd

That is true, but perception can give a person the idea of an event depending on how broad, or experienced their perception is.Some people could be scared, or disgusted by the colour of green, where another one could love the colour.

It like temperature, most people get the idea of Hot and Cold, or Damp and Dry.

originally posted by: Visitor2012
a reply to: Bluesma

It is best that the ultimate judge between them have some distance from the subject personally, in order to cut through all that.

Based on that, who should be responsible for sending people to war? Someone with battle experience or someone with just a PhD in war history?

I don't have a personal stance on that at this time, but according to the particular idea I shared, the concept would be that the best person would be neither someone with battle experience, nor someone with a PhD in history. It would be best if it was someone that had no experience or knowledge in that area at all, surrounded by a group of counselors that have various types of experience in it (the vet, the PhD, etc.).

The idea is that the responsible is sort of the "melting pot" for all the knowledgeable and experienced perceptions.
In him (her) they all mix to find a meeting point.

This would mean the only pre-requisite would be a high aptitude fro reception, empathy, and creativity.

Who should counsel the vets? People with experience in the battlefield, or just anybody with just a phd in psychiatry with no concept of what war is like?

Someone with a high aptitude for empathy and philosophical thought, would be my guess. Some people are able to grasp a really good sense of anothers personal experience. My stepmother is a shrink that works with very seriously ill criminals- serial killers and the such, in prison facilities. She has never killed anyone, and yet she is able to understand and mentally meld with these people, to a point she has much affection for them!

But then philosophical thought comes in.... one must be able to step into the mind and perception of another, but also then step back out. This is a sort of gymnastic of mind that not everyone is good at. Practice in studying philosophy is an exercise which can develop that ability for some.

If someone needs help, they not only need to be understood, but they need an exterior perception as well (otherwise, why go to any sort of counsel at all? If we both jump in the hole and are stuck there we've only spread the suffering further.

originally posted by: Specimen
a reply to: FyreByrd

That is true, but perception can give a person the idea of an event depending on how broad, or experienced their perception is.Some people could be scared, or disgusted by the colour of green, where another one could love the colour.

It like temperature, most people get the idea of Hot and Cold, or Damp and Dry.

That is my point, thank you. You understand the ground/archetype of the experience not the the specifice subjective experience.