Israel seems to have found something big and hidden...

FWIW, here is a recent CNN report. The reporter is inside one of the working tunnels and I'd presume by the fact it has aired, the tunnel isn't there anymore. However, it shows the disposable ones they're making at the Egyptian crossing. I say disposable in that they make them and lose them by discovery regularly enough to make it a cycle.




This next one from Euro News is about the tunnel they found running under the border and into Israel. I spent a bit of time checking into this because the first videos I saw weren't something I could say didn't just happen as a publicity thing in downtown Tel Aviv and a lot staged for the show. This has something that seals the deal on the validity tho..and it is attention getting, given the nature and construction methods there.


Hamas itself denounces the destruction and discovery of the tunnel in their own press conference about it. However, listen to what they say. They make absolutely no denial that tunnel was theirs or it was very real indeed. No, they're pissed Israel claimed credit for finding it, 18 meters down, as they claimed weather blew it so as to not give Israel credit for the discovery or something. It's a backhanded confirmation, but quite real nonetheless.

originally posted by: RAY1990
a reply to: LABTECH767

Tunneling and excavating is a highly outdated tactic in warfare, the weapons you could use underground would be much more effective above ground.

at a guess I can imagine tunneling under your enemy to plant explosives and tear their very world around them down has been an act of desperation since at least the 1500's, the invention of the cannon negated such mundane versions of taking an enemies stronghold.

I bet you that you'd struggle to find more than 40 cases of mining being used as an offensive tactic in the last 400 years, I also bet that any cases you do find the use of mining was a decision out of necessity and disparity. If these tunnels exist on the scale being mentioned that alone should say a lot.

No Tactic is outdated in warfare, it is a matter of what resourced you have at your disposal and it seem's hammas has some pretty god tunneling equipment, they can both make and import high explosive's, they are at a tactical disadvantage in any fair above ground engagement, they are fanatical thinking that killing Israeli's is going to send them to heaven if they die in doing so, they use civilian's, woman and children as human sheild's in the time honored manner of terrorists.
If underground warfare was oudated as it provided a mean's of accomplashing a first strike before your enemy know's it is coming then why other than the construction of Dumb's and bomb proof logistical highway's and military transport system's did the US develop the Nuclear powered tunnelling machines, This one could have built the channel tunnel in a fraction of the time 12160.info...
Also The use of Tunnel's only became semi obsolete and not outdated with the end of trench warfare but is still a viable method of attack on a hardened target when above ground defence is too hard to bypass.
The region where israel is located is mildly seismically active and even Seimic tunnel detection systems would be less than 100 percent in detection value.
Hammas are dangerous and have to be stopped and remember the west was never at peace with Islam, they were attacking europe up until the 1900's with turkish ottomon agression against greek's until less then 10 years before the first world war, they only lost there taste for attack, rape and enslavement of europeans in the 1700's with our own growing military and empire power that had then begun to overtake there's.
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
cmes.hmdc.harvard.edu...
Don't you feel sorry for them especially knowing what they want to do to you and your children if you do not worship there religion.

The truth is we have been at war with Islam for over a thousand years and we are today Losing that battle against the devil's unholy army but this was already prophesied in the scriptures as was there religion, the kingdom of the beast.

If you don't like or believe the truth that is your prerogative but such is my interpretation.

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
FWIW, here is a recent CNN report. The reporter is inside one of the working tunnels and I'd presume by the fact it has aired, the tunnel isn't there anymore. However, it shows the disposable ones they're making at the Egyptian crossing. I say disposable in that they make them and lose them by discovery regularly enough to make it a cycle.

This next one from Euro News is about the tunnel they found running under the border and into Israel. I spent a bit of time checking into this because the first videos I saw weren't something I could say didn't just happen as a publicity thing in downtown Tel Aviv and a lot staged for the show. This has something that seals the deal on the validity tho..and it is attention getting, given the nature and construction methods there.

Hamas itself denounces the destruction and discovery of the tunnel in their own press conference about it. However, listen to what they say. They make absolutely no denial that tunnel was theirs or it was very real indeed. No, they're pissed Israel claimed credit for finding it, 18 meters down, as they claimed weather blew it so as to not give Israel credit for the discovery or something. It's a backhanded confirmation, but quite real nonetheless.

That second tunnel is machined - where did Hamas get multi-million dollar tunneling equipment?
lol

Where did ISIS get all those brand new Toyota pick-ups?

It's all theater - imo

a reply to: intrptr

Those tunnels don't look very extensive. We didn't use tunnels much, there was no time to build them when the major bombardments started. If we had used tunnels, well, let's just say the body counts would probably have been lot closer.

originally posted by: smurfy
Well, we have seen the pictures of the tunnels perfectly executed and systematic, seemingly concrete and poured into shuttering, that would take time and perhaps a reason for Israel's prohibited substances in the blockade, 2007–present blockade of the Gaza Strip ... Construction materials including metal pipes, steel and cement are banned. We also saw some terrorists emerging from the tunnels and the exits were tiny one man jobs directly at the surface, and the tunnels themselves were strictly personnel in the given. That doesn't mean to say that there are much larger ones in the offing, perhaps caverns/cavernous staging points. Israel is certainly afraid of tunnels converging on any cities at best. At worst, they might think that the unenforceable blockade worked against them in the long run, and that all the surface stuff is just a blind to what might actually be going on down below..like a big bang for instance.

Tread carefully there. Yes, we've been shown pictures. Is this to say that they are verified pictures of the actual tunnels in question, or could be of any random tunnel? This is how the information war gets played. Major news networks are somewhat notorious for borrowing content from past events and utilizing stock footage to dramatize their broadcasts and fabricate their version of reality "on the ground."

A recent example of this that comes to mind is CNN using footage of a mob at a soccer match and claiming that it was footage from a riot in protest of Putin's reelection.

a reply to: np6888

Those tunnels don't look very extensive.

It is one of the primary reasons they defeated the US.

originally posted by: DestroyDestroyDestroy

Tread carefully there. Yes, we've been shown pictures. Is this to say that they are verified pictures of the actual tunnels in question, or could be of any random tunnel? This is how the information war gets played. Major news networks are somewhat notorious for borrowing content from past events and utilizing stock footage to dramatize their broadcasts and fabricate their version of reality "on the ground."

A recent example of this that comes to mind is CNN using footage of a mob at a soccer match and claiming that it was footage from a riot in protest of Putin's reelection.

The tunnelling has been going on for years, and has been reported on for years, often without pretty pictures. Why'd you think think Israel blocks the very materials needed for building such tunnels as you see in Wrabbit's second video, and the video I posted.
To add, the Israeli-Gaza barrier has been there since the mid 90's, and was extended around 2005 to include a barrier between Egypt. The picture below gives a good idea of the construction of a deal of the tunnels, but not all, this one was blown out by the Israelis.



There's also more to this than just Gaza, similar constructions around the world have led to governments danger assessments.

originally posted by: BABYBULL24

That second tunnel is machined - where did Hamas get multi-million dollar tunneling equipment?
lol

Where did ISIS get all those brand new Toyota pick-ups?

It's all theater - imo

It could be, it could be not. But since you mention ISIS, and that they are supposed to be in Gaza, it begs the question, is HAMAS going to let them use the tunnels into Egypt? I think not, it's a HAMAS lifeline, and HAMAS need to be seen keeping ISIS out of Egypt, while Egypt would likely rather just close the tunnel/s. Then all in all, I would say that Israel would rather deal with HAMAS than ISIS, there were some reports that Israel suspected some rockets were ISIS. Why? I'm not sure, but maybe Israel has intel on ISIS as to just where they are coming from. and ISIS's hit and run MO is very odd since they seem well equipped. Okay, you could say ISIS tactic is wreck locally, and hope that the locals end up fighting each other tribal fashion and destablizing that part of the world, at least temporarily, but then that's what intel agencies do too.
So it's very complicated for all concerned except ISIS, where you have HAMAS, albeit reluctantly, along with Egypt and Israel would rather close the tunnels. HAMAS may also have other reasons for not being too touchy-feely with ISIS, but Google is your friend in that respect.

On thing to remember here is that the Syrian rebels...ISIS, used huge tunnel bombs in Aleppo.

a reply to: Shuye

Eh.. not quite. The only one i've heard of recently was an abandoned school.

They aren' just popping up out of tunnels in mosques, schools, and such where people are beuase there are many spies and Mossad. They would be outted quickly.

Also the civilian human shield arguments are absurd because Hamas knows Israel has NO problem bombing civilians.

a reply to: pheonix358 Actually, there is a need for the school/hospital scenario. If Hamas didn't use them and then Israel would go where are the missiles being stored?

At a guess the tunnel system wasn't ready for whatever tactical mission they had in mind.

Secrecy through misdirection.

a reply to: MALBOSIA

The Palestinians are not a sovereign nation.

a reply to: BABYBULL24

First off: The Palestinians receive more aid per capita than any country or group of people in the world. Where has that money been used?

New Toyota pickups? Oil money can buy all the Toyota pickups Japan can manufacture and then some. I knew a guy who helped customize 7 747's purchased by a middle eastern oil magnate no one had heard of. Wasn't Kuwait or Saudi royal family. Each one was done differently. One with gold trim interior, one with platinum, one was some black interior. There were different configurations. The custom seating was made with deer hide grown in Spain that was without defects (no scratches or imperfections of any kind). Several had his seat as a throne... He had pictures to go along with his story. Each one was a classic example of excess. And there were 7...for one guy.

originally posted by: myselfaswell
a reply to: Wrabbit2000

Hundreds of thousands of tons of concrete have been used for construction of tunnels

That statement I find very, very hard to believe. It makes it sound like something from Men in Black.

1 cu.ft of concrete weighs = 150 lbs
1 cu.yd. of concrete weighs = 4050 lbs

I'd imagine the thickness of the tunnel walls, in order to support ~30m of pressure from above is pretty significant. I find their guesstimation believable.

Whether it's psy ops or information warfare on Israel's part one thing is for sure, like Netanyahu said before the ground invasion they are going to end this once and for all. The moment I heard that they mobilized their troops outside Gaza I knew they were going in eventually and the moment I heard that they went in I knew they were going to wipe Gaza off the face of the earth. They used peace talks in Egypt and a possible cease fire to move their troops in. Every time their is a possible cease fire agreement on the table it doesn't list any of the demands that Palastinians want. Israel knows Hamas won't accept them and turn down the agreement and it makes Israel look good to the world for offering while being able to continue their assault. Both Hamas and Israel knows that this is the endgame, this is all or nothing. Even if what Israel is saying is overexaggerated there is no way to confirm what they say and by the time someone does they''ll have more reasons ready as to why they have to continue the campaign. Gaza is a tiny walled in city which means it is only a matter of time before the entire place is completely leveled and whatever civilians remain will have no choice but to leave. All Israel has to do is pump out enough propaganda to keep the world distracted until they are done.

a reply to: Hoondi

The cease fires that Hamas is not agreeing to Set things to the Treaty of 2012. Back to as they were before the ceasefire, if there were one. At this point, a new treaty could be negotiated.

Hamas is rejecting the ceasefires cause, even though they are losing, they want to dictate terms and come away with a "win". How utterly stupid. How utterly psychotic that they have a choice to stop the bloodshed and choose not to.

THE BLOCKADE

Breaking the seven-year blockade of Gaza imposed by Israel and Egypt is the primary Palestinian demand.

Hamas wants its crossings with Israel and Egypt reopened, demanding detailed assurances that the flow of goods and people will be resumed. Egypt has sharply restricted travel in and out of Gaza over the past year, following last year’s military ouster of the Hamas-allied Muslim Brotherhood and Islamist President Mohammed Morsi. Hamas is wary of Egyptian assurances to ease the blockade. Such promises also were part of a truce that ended more than a week of fighting in 2012, but were not fully implemented.

While Israel has indicated a willingness to ease some of the restrictions, its main fear is that Hamas will use the free flow to rearm itself and restock its weaponry. Israel says construction material that it has allowed into Gaza was used by Hamas not for building schools and homes but rather to construct tunnels.

Here is the, supposedly, full list:

Hamas' demands

These are the demands that Israel will not accept.

originally posted by: bbracken677
a reply to: MALBOSIA

The Palestinians are not a sovereign nation.

If you asked the Palestinians I think they would disagree. Palestine no longer exists on any current maps but that is because Israel wiped them off the map illegally while the world turned the other cheek. That is why Israel claims that Muslims are trying to wipe them off the map. Like the thief that is paranoid of being stolen from. Guilty concious...

a reply to: MALBOSIA

Palestine has never been a sovereign nation. Not one ruled over by Palestinians.

Do you suppose there were no Jews in Israel before or after the British took the region in WWI from the Ottomans?

Both sides are responsible for the continuing conflict. Today, once again, Hamas rejected a cease fire. They seem to be oblivious to the suffering of their own people. Or, more likely, they just like the press that dying Palestinians make.. the poor victims.

originally posted by: bbracken677
a reply to: MALBOSIA

Palestine has never been a sovereign nation. Not one ruled over by Palestinians.

Do you suppose there were no Jews in Israel before or after the British took the region in WWI from the Ottomans?

Both sides are responsible for the continuing conflict. Today, once again, Hamas rejected a cease fire. They seem to be oblivious to the suffering of their own people. Or, more likely, they just like the press that dying Palestinians make.. the poor victims.

So Israel has been expanding since 1948 onto who's territory? Was it just a void.

I guess you can say that Canada is not sovereign since it is part of the British Commonwealth. Maybe a bad choice of terms but the results would be the same if someone posted a religious flag here, claimed statehood and armed themselves with nuclear weapons.

originally posted by: MALBOSIA

originally posted by: bbracken677
a reply to: MALBOSIA

Palestine has never been a sovereign nation. Not one ruled over by Palestinians.

Do you suppose there were no Jews in Israel before or after the British took the region in WWI from the Ottomans?

Both sides are responsible for the continuing conflict. Today, once again, Hamas rejected a cease fire. They seem to be oblivious to the suffering of their own people. Or, more likely, they just like the press that dying Palestinians make.. the poor victims.

So Israel has been expanding since 1948 onto who's territory? Was it just a void.

I guess you can say that Canada is not sovereign since it is part of the British Commonwealth. Maybe a bad choice of terms but the results would be the same if someone posted a religious flag here, claimed statehood and armed themselves with nuclear weapons.

As I stated, both sides are responsible. One of the ways Israel is responsible has been the treatment of the Palestinians, no?

Your allegory: More accurately it would be the history of the Americas. The facts are, the Indians lost and will never get the land back. Fact is: Israel is, and is not going anywhere. The facts are either dealt with or... we have the Israeli - Palestinian conflict.

Fair is a concept that never exists in nature and seldom exists in human history. Deal with it or not. I don't care lol