Israel seems to have found something big and hidden...

a reply to: mr-lizard

Not really, though unpleasent it would definitely target the Militant's and Hammas military more effectively with fewer casualty's, the trick is to drive them into the Tunnel's first?.
Rather than than seeing some out of control artilliary unit target a UN sanctuary, too many civilians are dieing now but I feel Israel has no choice though it may be sowing the wind a bit and this will probably precipitate fresh terrorism against both them and the west.

a reply to: pheonix358

This is a brilliant point. These tunnels would be the smartest place to store weapons. So maybe the miles of tunnels was buried in the story because it would bring into question Israels bombing of achools, shelters, and hospitals.

a reply to: pheonix358

If the tunnels do exist then why is Israel bombing schools?

Probably wiping out the next generation, using rockets storage as an excuse to murder more kids.

originally posted by: MALBOSIA
Wow. So Israel feels threatened having to send large numbers of troops to defend engineers while they destroy a sovereign nations peoples only way to travel in their own country without crossing checkpoints enforced by a military occupation.

Poor Israel. The Palestinians just wont hand over the land to whatever you want to call them, no matter how many of their children get murdered in cold blood while the world stands by and tippy toes around it, making excuses for Israel because it is to harmful to any professional's career to criticize Israel, since you will be publicly smeared by the massive pro-Israel media machine.

Manipulation and extortion, or as the Israelis put it, "war by deception." Israel has no friends, at least for their part. They have nations they use, and nations they destroy, but not with force. From within. While you call them your friend.

There are no Israeli checkpoints inside Gaza. Check your facts.

a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

Thing is Hamas is also extremely clever, quite a few entrances to these tunnels are reported in schools, hospitals and even mosques since they know the IDF will have moral difficulties to bomb them, and if and when they do, it will help Hamas to win the PR war and portrait the IDF as war criminals.

It's a very complex situation, what people outside the Middle East sees in MSM is pretty much the PR war. The truth is far more complex than good guys vs bad guys.

Likely they have some of these tunnels so that they can pop up behind Israeli troops. Clear a building only to find it not clear.

Tricky way to do ambushes and very dangerous if the Israelis find the tunnel and do a ambush of there own.

a reply to: Shuye

Thing is Hamas is also extremely clever, quite a few entrances to these tunnels are reported in schools, hospitals and even mosques

Reported where ... in the Israeli press? Miles and miles of tunnels?

Danger, Danger sings the messenger.

Where is the proof. All I have seen so far is a short video of masked men moving through a very small tunnel.

The men could be anyone and the tunnel anywhere.

It just seems a little too good from one perspective in this conflict.

P

The Israel haters will never own up to what this really is nor the fact that it leaves Israel completely justified.

Obviously Hamas isn't building tunnels into Israel because they believe that a bunch of freedom fighters are going to come out of the ground and use automatic weapons and rockets to outman a nation who's every citizen has military training. Nobody is that stupid.

These tunnels are for genocide. This is to bring an A bomb or two into Israel or other WMD, the Israelis aren't wrong about what will happen when Iran gets nukes, this is obviously a Nation State sponsored system.

The stupidity of people... the Death toll in Gaza is 750 and people call it "Genocide" the Death toll in Detroit alone is currently 411... meanwhile Hamas is actually building and putting a system for "ACTUAL" genocide of the Jews in place.

I have been hesitant to take a side through this, but now my opinion has to go 100% Israel, these tunnels weren't being built to smuggle weed lol... they have every right to go in and stop this.

No need for flammable liquids, there is more than enough sea water, just keep pumping, there should be at least one hydraulic engineer in Israel?

a reply to: criticalhit

I have been hesitant to take a side through this

Yeah, OK, I do not believe this .... especially when you follow it with

but now my opinion has to go 100% Israel

Of course, you didn't leave out the big scary part.

This is to bring an A bomb or two into Israel

The only thing you missed out on is

It's for the CHILDREN

But with so many of those innocent children dying I can understand why you left that bit out.

Your arguments have the subtly of a kilo of C4.

P

P

There was an interesting snippet on the Channel 4 news last night about unconfirmed rumours that Hamas built their underground tunnel command centers and really high value sites underneath the UN compounds and schools and hospitals.

Which makes absolute sense. They're not ~in~ the UN compounds, they're ~under~ them. So not technically violating the letter of the law.

A question to all your smart peopleout there. How do you smuggle all those concrete in and more importantly where does the tunneled soil goes to? If you tunnel you create dirt. Dirt need to go somewhere.

a reply to: pheonix358

Your responses of "I don't believe it" and "I don't believe you" remind me of the commercials for "I can't believe it's not butter" where an obviously culinary disabled person tastes something a molecule away from plastic and says "I can't believe it's not butter" and you stare incredulously at the screen wondering what kind of accident they were in as a child...

united states...goes to Iraq looking for wmd's and find almost nothing but kill 500,000 people

Israel, kills 750 people and reveals and elaborate obviously state sponsored set of tunnels extending under their land into their infra structure

any question of their necessity in these actions just became a joke

a reply to: Slowjoe

Gaza isn't the yard of some prison and it's not an occupied territory. It hasn't been since 2005 when Israel turned their back on the place, sealed the borders for all but the limited trade they permit and let things go from there.

The main point being...dirt? How is that a concern? Hamas IS the Government and Authority in Gaza. Why would they have problems with dirt? Is there someone likely to notice they are dumping fresh tailings from the digging? If so...then call whom? Hamas is the Police, local government and security services for the whole Gaza Strip, such that it is.

As far as the concrete? They DO get construction supplies. Hundreds of trucks are allowed per year. Israel does allow concrete. They heavy restrict the amount and nature of those items being transported in (and now, we see why) but getting it isn't a major problem. Smuggling that seems even easier, given what they DO get in and prove by using.

These guys are confirmed to have REAL missiles. Not just giant home made bottle rockets. The range allows for firing into Tel Aviv itself and then shots taken even further north have now removed all doubts as to that. If they can smuggle entire missiles in then bags dry cement mix sound very straight forward (imagine the trouble involved and not just one. Many many of them.. I DO respect their sheer determination if nothing else).

a reply to: criticalhit

The Israel haters will never own up to what this really is nor the fact that it leaves Israel completely justified.

Sorry but in no way is Israel justified in carpet bombing neighborhoods, schools or hospitals. Not to mention no real proof has been shown yet.

These tunnels are for genocide. This is to bring an A bomb or two into Israel or other WMD, the Israelis aren't wrong about what will happen when Iran gets nukes, this is obviously a Nation State sponsored system.

Not the A bomb nonsense again. If Hamas were to set on of those off it would be like setting it off in their own backyard. Also seeing how Iran isn't trying to build nukes Israel is wrong on that end too.

The stupidity of people... the Death toll in Gaza is 750 and people call it "Genocide" the Death toll in Detroit alone is currently 411... meanwhile Hamas is actually building and putting a system for "ACTUAL" genocide of the Jews in place.

What foreign nation is attacking Detroit? This system if it really exists could be a safe haven for the Palestinians from the NeoNazis running Israel.

I have been hesitant to take a side through this, but now my opinion has to go 100% Israel, these tunnels weren't being built to smuggle weed lol... they have every right to go in and stop this.

And Palestine seeing that it is occupied by a hostile nation has every right to use whatever means necessary to defend themselves from that nation.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

Gaza isn't the yard of some prison and it's not an occupied territory.

How can you say it isn't some kind of prison when Israel and Egypt has checkpoints on every entrance into it? Also Palestine is occupied territory Israel has not given back all the land it has stolen since 67 much less 48.

As far as the concrete? They DO get construction supplies. Hundreds of trucks are allowed per year. Israel does allow concrete. They heavy restrict the amount and nature of those items being transported in (and now, we see why) but getting it isn't a major problem. Smuggling that seems even easier, given what they DO get in and prove by using.

So besides buildings that are built from concrete they still have enough left over to build miles of tunnels. Yeah ok.

These guys are confirmed to have REAL missiles.

Let's see them can you show some proof of the REAL missiles? Also who confirmed this Israel?

a reply to: buster2010

Buster, please explan the use of the term "carpet bomb"? You've used that term multiple times this week. I know of this tactic and have studied the results for tests in history courses. It was the preferred method for a fair % of World War II terror bombing from both Ally and Axis bombers as well as a rather infamous tactic used by the B-52 bombers in the Vietnam War. Carpet bombing isn't a term with meaning as we throw it around, but a well defined and time tested tactic of modern air war.

What area of the Gaza strip has now or even been carpet bombed by Israeli air power? The term sounds scary...but the definition simply doesn't seem to fit there.

And Palestine seeing that it is occupied by a hostile nation has every right to use whatever means necessary to defend themselves from that nation.

So is there no war tactic off limits? Is there no method they can employ which you would conisder over the line? Just as importantly...is there ANY tactic israel can employ in active defense which you would not, by definition of who is doing it, see as over the line?

Palestine isn't a sovereign nation. Again, this is international definitions, not our opinions or wishful thinking. They HAVE been recognized officially as the State of Palestine by the United Nations as of 2012.

However, a sovereign nation is a long long way from happening as more than a hope and dream. Gaza isn't occupied now, and hasn't been for over 8 years. I do wonder if the near 40% unemployment, severe potable water crisis for all near 2 million residents and misery on a rather staggering scale is what Hamas had in mind for a yardstick to success. They've embraced it, by deed if not word. As the ruling governing body of the Gaza strip, they not only embrace it, but fully own this outcome too.

Just look to the West Bank for how different their life COULD be....and while still no Disneyland by any stretch of imagination? The West Bank is night/day different in living conditions and daily reality than the stagnant Hamas camp which Gaza has become.

a reply to: buster2010

How can you say it isn't some kind of prison when Israel and Egypt has checkpoints on every entrance into it? Also Palestine is occupied territory Israel has not given back all the land it has stolen since 67 much less 48.

If the militant elements of the Palestinian population in Gaza (namely the terrorists of Hamas) would either stand down or be PUT DOWN, then the Palestinians who call Gaza home may come to know a life far far better than they've known in recent years. I was looking at all this for hours last night, after posting this thread. Looking at reports, photos of the tunnels and general quality of life standards in Gaza. It's absolutely and without question...atrocious.

It's also in the hands of and run with an iron fist BY an off shoot of the Muslim Brotherhood in Hamas and a group dedicated to the killing of every Israeli, to the last person. Israel doesn't share this goal in reply...but Hamas is officially dedicated to the deaths of every Israeli, by policy and by mission statement.

That fact means that while I may have true and deep sympathy for the Palestinian people (and I absolutely DO), I also wish them the best in overthrowing and putting down every last member of the Hamas ruling party. They don't have to embrace Fatah, but for the love of their own future, Hamas is a dead end into misery for life...and death.

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
a reply to: Slowjoe

Gaza isn't the yard of some prison and it's not an occupied territory. It hasn't been since 2005 when Israel turned their back on the place, sealed the borders for all but the limited trade they permit and let things go from there.

The main point being...dirt? How is that a concern? Hamas IS the Government and Authority in Gaza. Why would they have problems with dirt? Is there someone likely to notice they are dumping fresh tailings from the digging? If so...then call whom? Hamas is the Police, local government and security services for the whole Gaza Strip, such that it is.

As far as the concrete? They DO get construction supplies. Hundreds of trucks are allowed per year. Israel does allow concrete. They heavy restrict the amount and nature of those items being transported in (and now, we see why) but getting it isn't a major problem. Smuggling that seems even easier, given what they DO get in and prove by using.

These guys are confirmed to have REAL missiles. Not just giant home made bottle rockets. The range allows for firing into Tel Aviv itself and then shots taken even further north have now removed all doubts as to that. If they can smuggle entire missiles in then bags dry cement mix sound very straight forward (imagine the trouble involved and not just one. Many many of them.. I DO respect their sheer determination if nothing else).

I don't know wrabbit I'm no construction expert but surely Israel itself would notice thousands of tonnes of earth being moved with all those drones they have, miles of tunnels and command facilities will create a lot of debris.

Then you have the concrete again I'm no construction expert but I don't think dry mix concrete is going to work, not the store bought stuff... The mix would have to be spot on for ratio of mixing or your going to have big problems with your bunkers and tunnels in construction that usually means making huge batches.

Then you'd have the heat problem from the concrete as it sets... You'd need some powerful machinery to move all that concrete preferably via pump into the tunnels.

The logistics would be baffling someone bound to suspect something I can imagine.