I Want Opinions and Facts, page 2

Now, before I begin my rebuttal, I do want you to know that I really am trying to have a serious discussion with this on you. Text makes it very hard to convey tone, facial expression, and hand gesture, so at times I will probably sound condescending. Just know that none of this is a personal attack, I am merely playing the devil's advocate, and trying to help us both by challenging your statements. Debate on an a subject should force you to either reinforce, or adapt your views. You should also enter into any debate with the acceptance of the possibility that you are wrong.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
You're not clearing things up, only obfuscating it, by nitpicking at definitions and semantics, which has comprised much of this post. I have better things to do than that, leave the debate of semantics of words to those who compose the dictionary.

Well, I'm sorry, but having come from many years worth of training in debate, speech competitions, essay contests, Toastmasters International, and various other such avenues of education, one of the most important aspects of a persuasive arguement, time and time again, has been to use the correct terminology.

I know it doesn't seem like it from my previous posts, but I am on your side. I'm not convinced, as you appear to be, that it is currently taking place, or that it will happen any time soon. But I do believe it is important to keep the fear of a One-World Government alive, so that in the future we never make the mistake of allowing it to happen...

And I'll even leave myself open to the concept of what you are trying to say, but if you want to convince those who actually have an education in government and political structure, it is vital that you use the correct terms. And if someone, like myself, understands what you are trying to say, and takes the time to listen and figure it out, and then when they do, suggests a more appropriate word, you might consider using that word instead instead of repeatedly defending the wrong words.

Either that, or you should set up an explanation of your blanket terms, at the begining of the dialogue. I realize this might seem redundant, or unneccesary, but if you go and read any amount of classic philosophical literature, or legal documentation, you will find that this is the norm.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
1. Liberals?

Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.

See, I still have to disagree here. Germany and Russia, in WWII, were both very authoritarian states, yet they still ended up on opposite sides of the war. China and Japan are perhaps even better examples, as in WWII, both were extremely authoritarian, dogmatic, bigoted, and had an orthodoxy dating back thousands of years, and yet still ended up on opposite sides of the war.

Additionaly, you still use the wrong word here. "Liberals," as I understand the term, are just as prone to bigotry, orthodox views, authoritarian attitudes, and dogmatic practices. For instance, PETA (about as liberal a group as they come), if they had their way, would force the rest of the nation to take their views on animals and enact strict laws and harsh punishments for those that broke them. Any strongly religious Liberal is already, by definition, following dogmatic practices. Some Liberals have traditions dating back hundreds or thousands of years, and adhere to them strongly.

And just as important to the arguement is the fact that "Conservatives" can be just as anti-orthodox, nontraditional, and unbigoted as any Liberal. My own father is a prime example. He's not very religious. Any traditions he has are traditions he made up to keep the family together (such as lunch on Sunday). As for bigoted, he married my mom (a Native American) has a son (me) who's marrying a Latina, and acts as a primary liason to Japan for his company. He enjoys discussing the Talmud with his Jewish friends, the Bible with his Christian friends, and the Quraan with his Muslim friends, but subscribes to none of them. Yet he is very conservative when it comes to politics, because he believes that Conservatives have better fiscal policy, and for the most part, has been proven correct.

You may think I'm trying to obfuscate the issue with small details like this, but I'm trying to help you understand that when you use a blanket term like that, you are immediately going to alienate half your audience that might otherwise listen. Once you slap "The Elimination of Liberals" as a tagline to the requirements for the NWO to achieve it's goals, any conservatives out there are pretty much going to stop listening to what you have to say, because your message has just become, in their mind, nothing but liberal rubbish.

So again, I implore you, in the future, if you use this same strategy to defend your claim, that you use something besides "Liberal," and instead opt for something like "Elimination of Political Diversity."

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
2. Islamic States? ...and that is why they must be eradicated by the empire for its NWO goals to succeed.

I still disagree with your assessment of their being any greater of a threat than, any other states, but this is a minor enough point that I don't feel it neccesary to argue.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
That is what is happening today in the Middle East, they are being killed in their hundreds of thousands/millions, and are being demonized by the western propoganda machine, and ostracized by the global society.

I don't know about demonized, but yeah, I can agree that they've gotten an unjustly bad rep among the ignorant.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
When we say "islamic terrorists" "muslim terrorists" we are effectively segregating the muslim culture from our society. There is no other culture in the world, that has it's own breed of terrorists, and it's own name in infamy.

No. I'm sorry, but you're incorrect on this one. Ireland had the IRA. Columbia has FARC. Japan has the Yakuza. China has the Triads. The South China Sea nations have roving bands of pirates. Russia has numerous terrorist bands rising up every day. And don't even get me started on all the stuff going on in Africa...

I will agree that Muslims currently have an unjustly bad rep here in the U.S., but they are not unique by a longshot, they are only the most recent, and the most recent ones to strike down thousands of lives in the U.S. Before you make a claim like "Always," "Only," "Never," or any superlative statement, you must do your research. And proper research will almost-always prove that a superlative statement is incorrect.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
This will be amplified after the next staged terrorist attack, and then you will witness as a backlash against the muslims, racial profiling by the state and the people itself. Not only will the victims be Muslims, but Sikhs, Hindu, Jains, Indo-Buddhists and other foreigners with middle-eastern and south asian looks.

Yes, sadly, I feel you are correct on this. I had become good friends with a Sikh, who owned a gas station near my old apartment. Twice a week I would stop for gas and smokes, and we'd chat for a while before I left. He would tell me of India, of the Sikhs, and I would tell him of places in America he had not yet been, and we'd discuss politics...

...and then 9/11 hit. It happened to hit right after I got gas that morning, at that same place... so I didn't need to go back for about 3 or 4 days. What had previously been a cheery little stop with an open door and a friendly face, now had boarded-up windows and bars over the door. I entered to find him staring at me without recognition in his eyes, only fear. He acted as if I were holding up the place with a shotgun. Concerned, I asked him if he was okay, and a light sort of switched on in back of his eyes. He recognized me at last, and with a shaking hand, pulled two packs of Camel Wide Lights from the overhead shelf and set them delicately on the counter, as if they might attack him at any moment. I slid my money across the counter, and gingerly picked them up, wondering why he was in such shock. With a haunted look, he said "I didn't do it... It wasn't me. It wasn't even my people," and began to weep.

Being a Texan, I'm not real comfortable in the presence of a crying man, so I left, but I'll always remember the look on his face, and can only imagine the sorts of horrors he must have been through in the backlash from 9/11. Here was a man, rightly proud of his heritage as a protector of India, who had come to America to seek his fortune, that he might bring his family over as well, and let them share in the opportunities this land provided... and almost overnight, everyone he knew had treated him as if he had personally slain their family...

It is not a sight I will ever forget. It is the first time I was ever truly ashamed of my country.

But this was not due to some fiendish plot by the NWO, or by the Government, or by Shadow Puppeteers who orchestrated some intricate scheme. It was the ignorance and anger of people who wanted to put a face to one of the greatest tragedies in American History. It was simply latent or blatant racism, fear and ignorance, lashing out at the nearest person who resembled The Enemy.

If there were ever a nuclear attack on U.S. soil, or some comparable terrorist act, I fear it would result in a very short-lived genocide by the people, until the government could get it under control.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
This is all designed by the state. It scares me that these people are being set-up like this, and when I look at them today, I hate to think what is going to happen to them.

B-llsh-t!!! I'm sorry, but that's the biggest load of crap I've ever heard. And if you ever want to be taken seriously by me, or anyone else with half a brain, you need to realize that sometimes otherwise ordinary people will do stupid and hateful things because they are ignorant and fearful. Sometimes individuals who work for the state, or the local, or the federal government will join in on these acts as well, but they are NOT an act of the state. They are the acts of very very stupid people.

Ignorance and Racism will exist regardless of government, because of mankinds inherent sense of xenophobia against that which is different.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Of course you cannot see it, if you knew about it, you would not give a rats arse about elections, no one would.

On the contrary. It is BECAUSE I see, that I DO care about elections. It's the people who do not vote that allow antichrists like Bush into office. It's apathy like yours that allows a lapdog senate and house. It's that kind of attitude that lets the ignorant rule and the few to govern. You dare to lecture me on how I cannot see, when you do not even bother to vote?

I sat and watched every single minute of the debates. I followed Nader's stances and interviews with a Hawk's eye. I watched Farenheit 9/11 then watched Farenhype 9/11 just to get both sides to the story. I read article after article, from as many publications as I could, and when I finally decided to vote for Kerry, despite being in a "red state", I walked into the voting booth knowing that despite the fact the Texan electoral votes would probably go to Bush, I was voting my conscience with as much information as I could obtain, and as much forethought and meditation on the subject as was needed.

Your vote DOES count. It DOES change the government, and it DOES change the world. If enough people who didn't want Bush in office had gotten off their stupid high horse, and come down among us "blind folk" long enough to cast their ballot, Bush would not be in the White House right now. Kerry would. Despite what you think you know, the System DOES work. It works really really well. But because of this retarded attitude that one's vote doesn't matter, or wouldn't make a difference, you ALLOW ignorant tyranny and oppression to continue.

You aren't a revolutionary, you aren't a seer, you apparently aren't even all that educated on the subject you're trying to discuss. If you were, you would use any and all means to fight it, and that includes work both in and outside of the system. You want to make a difference, and talk about how messed up our government is, fine. But don't expect me to think you anything other than an armchair revolutionary until you get off your lazy butt and vote, because THAT is the only non-violent way that will ever truly determine who runs our country.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
So instead you've been given a false sense of freedom and you lap it up. You've been indoctrinated into the human matrix, by inundating you with worries, tax, bills, share prices,

What, you mean being a responsible adult, and PAYING my way through life instead of letting someone else pay for me? You mean that, by showing up at work each day, and EARNING my pay, that I am bowing down to the man? You mean to say that by putting food on the table for my family, and making sure we have running water and electricity, that I am some sort of drone or zombie? Would you have me instead go live in the woods, in a wooden shack, hunting my food while my wife plows the garden? Or do you mean I should expect these things to be provided to me on a silver platter, with no concerns about the future? If so, who's going to pay for it?

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
and keeping you entertained with football and movies, and your thinking controlled by religion, science or cults.

I never watch sports, almost never watch television, and while I do watch movies, it is to broaden my horizons and experience something I might not otherwise see. I cannot stand most Hollywood blockbusters, and prefer the more independant films or offbeat directors. If I watch something for Eye Candy, it is for the intrinsic artistic value of it, a visual and audial blend of beauty. My thinking is controlled by no one. I am spiritual in nature, and fascinated by theology, but ascribe to no particular religion except perhaps Shamanism, but even then with a healthy mix of other views thrown in. Every day I question my beliefs, and try to disprove them logically so that I am forced to defend my beliefs. If I find that they fail to stand up against attack, then I adapt them or change them. As such, I've reached what I feel to be a very secure and enlightened approach to my spirituality. I take every scientific announcement with a grain of salt, knowing that more things fail than succeed. If it interests me, I read more on it, and if it doesn't, then I don't.

I am not the pawn you think I am. I am not a mindless Grunty who sits before the electric hearth at night, keeping myself entertained, and then drone into work for The Man the next day. Every day I seek to enlighten myself further, and instead of rabidly clinging to a view, I leave myself open enough to accept new ideas, or even the idea that I am wrong. And it is because of this that I do not automatically buy into your statements, and instead argue them.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Meawhile, right under your noses, they make amendments to your constiution,

What ammendments??? Where? The only amendment that's ever come out in my entire lifetime is the 27th Amendment, which took 200 YEARS to eventually pass! Bush has proposed a new Amendment about defining marriage, but even his lapdog legislation appear to have opted against this, because ammending the U.S. Constitution is such a grueling process, and requires such a large majority, that it is almost impossible even with the absolute best of intentions that everyone agrees with (much less something that many people do not agree with).

Did you do ANY real research on this, or are you old enough that the 11 Ammendments (almost all of which took over 100 years worth of work to pass) in the last century seem like a lot?

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
...legislate draconian laws, wage illegal wars on sovereign nations,...

Sometimes, yes. I agree. And thanks to people not voting, those laws get passed.
I can't say anything about the "wars" claim, because I agree.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
plan your own murder and liase with other around the world on whether their actions are going to plan, and even have spare time to engage in satanic rituals and human sacrifice. Yet, you, are so engrossed in the human matrix, that you remain oblivious.

Okay, you've officially entered uncredible tabloid-land. Had you bothered to name a specific individual, it would be called libel, and you'd probably get sued. And I'm not even going to honor this by arguing it until you provide a shred of evidence other than your word. Speaking as a paranoid schizophrenic, if you honestly believe this stuff, you either need evidence, or you need therapy. Now if you can provide me genuine (not photoshopped) photos of Bush or any other member of my government doing these things, or documents listing my name on the "Terminate" list, or any other sort of credible evidence, I'll listen further, otherwise, you've just shot all your credibility to hell, and only the insane people would believe you.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Yet, those few who have taken the red pill and become aware of the actual human reality, who come and tell you what is happening, you police, ridicule and condemn, because that is what you've been conditioned to do. It is a

Firstly, what is this magic red pill you speak of? Do you mean that gelcap prop that actor Lawrence Fishbourne held out to actor Keanu Reeves in the Watchowski Bros. production "The Matrix"? That red pill? Did the boxed set come with one that magically transported you outside of our world and revealed truth to you?

If you mean a metaphorical red pill, then you need to state what the metaphor represents, otherwise, I've got an image of you licking the TV screen from a movie.

Secondly, you just got through telling us that we are effectively being brainwashed by movies, when you yourself are apparently using a movie to back up your claims.

Have you even read "The Allegory of The Cave", that the Watchowski brothers said they based the movie off of?

Thirdly, if I condemn and ridicule, it's because the one I do so to has made an outrageous claim with no supporting arguements, and is spouting nothing but cliche lines and regurgitated propaganda from someone else, instead of actually putting any real research or thought into it. NOT because I was conditioned to, but because I long ago learned the hard way that you can't just make stuff up without those things, and expect to be taken seriously.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
When you are ready to leave the Matrix, you will see there is shadow government a transnational governing entity, a government behind the governments of the world. You will realise that your sovereignity is nothing but a farce, that you are being controlled and regulated, like any resource or commodity in the world, by the empire. If they want, they can send/transfer a million of you to a prison Island, and no one will bat an eye lid, and actually that has already been done, that's what formed Australia.

Indigo, I left the Matrix a long time ago. But I didn't exchange one blindfold for another. You really want to see? Then open your eyes and read, research, and always challenge your own beliefs, and leave yourself open to the idea that you are wrong, and adapt your views when neccesary. Do this day in, day out, for decades, and I think you'll find a lot more of the truth than can be found in one sci-fi conspiracy film. I have seen things more wonderous than most people can imagine, and experienced things more terrible than most people's nightmares because of it, and I still have enough of a grip on reality to know you can't just say A = B. You have to proof out the equation.

I leave myself open to the possibility that you are, in fact, correct, but your choice of ways to convince me of it are sorely lacking in anything other than cliche and paranoid rantings.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Further, if you are not aware, the wages you so proudly proclaim here, is nothing but paper with writing that entiltles you to a loan from the federal reserves.

Economics having been my major in college, I'm pretty sure I have a firm understanding of the way money works. Or is College Education also merely a tool of The NWO to corrupt my mind?

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
You actually own nothing you think you are purchasing. It is owned by the state. This may come as a shock to you, especially for someone who believes he's free , but you don't even own yourself.

Okay, I'm going to need to see the legislation on this. Surely you can provide this, yes? And I don't want a cut and paste from some tabloid conspiracy site either, I want HR bills, state laws, federal laws, with the appropriate coding so I can verify them. And some answer about shadow-governments hiding these laws isn't going to cut it.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
True ownership comes from equity, land and property. If you own that, you don't even need a taxable income. You can become self-dependent.

I'm sure I'm going to regret this, but no, in fact, no one in America truly owns the land anymore. It is on lease from the state or federal government. At some point, I'll try to find the specific legislation on this, it's been too long since I've read them to accurately go into much more detail, but that's what it amounts to.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
In the same way the rich are self-dependent, it's not because they earn income, it's because they own property and land, and generate a non-taxable income from that. You are the worker/slaves that work your ass of 24/7 for them, pay high taxes, own nothing, and have to pay bills and the national debt.

All that depends on the current administration and the tax laws of that year, and they do change with every administration, and every year. But the true reason that the rich are self-dependant is not any sort of conspiracy at all, it's simply having the discipline to let your money work for you, and having the buying power to buy smart, instead of cheap.

Two examples:

1.) If you set aside money in an interest-bearing account, and do not touch it, and let it ride, your money generates more money from the process of loaning. The more time you let it sit, the larger it gets. Anyone who is smart enough to invest at an early enough age can be a millionaire by the time they are 65. Anyone. If you put away a mere $2 per day into an interest bearing account, you can be a millionaire by the time you are 65. The older you get, the more money you have to put away in order to achieve this. And the more money you put in, the more exponentially this amount grows.

(Source: "Smart Women Finish Rich" by David Bach)

2.) Rich people can afford to be poor. They can buy more frugally. For instance, if a cheap $5 pair of shoes wears out in 6 months, but if a $100 pair of shoes will last you 20 years, the poor person who always buys the $5 pair (because it's all that they can afford at once) will spend $200 on shoes versus the rich person who spends only $100. The person who buys the 7oz. can of food for $1 gets a worse deal than the person who buys the 28oz. can for $2.

Rich people end up being staying rich because they have the discipline to save early, let their money work for them, and spend their money wisely. Those that don't, don't stay rich for long. It doesn't remotely require a conspiracy, it's just plain economics.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Or you are too overconfident for your own good? Have you seen these guys?
(snip of photots of cops in riot gear)

The only time I've ever seen these guys deployed is when the people got out of hand to a point when it was required. The Rodney King riots, the WTO riots, and so forth...

And despite someone's opinions or right to protest, nothing gives someone the right to loot and destroy property. I personally experienced the aftermath of the WTO riots in Seattle. I saw those riot cops with my own eyes, and I saw the destruction and looting committed by the ignorant arseheads who dubbed themselves protestors. They smashed in Nike storefronts, grabbing shoes, jewelry, and other expensive items off the shelves. How is that anything other than looting? They overturned BUSSES, and set them on fire. BUSSES! A people who should have been all for public transportation to lower the pollution and traffic rate, were overturning these. Innocent people were brutally mauled, women were raped in the confusion, people were robbed of wallets and anything valuable. How does this advance anyone's cause?

I was GLAD the police came out in force, and I felt sorry for them having to restrain themselves in the face of people attacking them. These weren't nameless, faceless men and women who answered to shadowy powers and came from hidden legions in a secret base. They were normal people, like you and me, who swore to uphold the law, and in the face of extreme violence, panic, and rioting, worked for over 30-straight hours to try and bring about some semblence or order to the city, while having to wear over 100 lbs. worth of equipment, armor, and remain alert and on their feet. You tell me how YOU would have controlled the situation.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child

(snip of news stories)

See, you are living in the country of the US, and you don't even know this is happening, does that not illustrate what I said about the human matrix. It's not that you are lucky, it's that it's not your turn yet.

I am QUITE aware of these sorts of things happening. I try to keep a very reasonable grip on current events, and in some cases, such as the WTO riots, I witnessed the events with my own eyes. And then I watched how the media treated it afterward. They painted the protestors as martyrs, and the riot cops as brutal opporessors. If these "peaceful protestors" would stop rioting, raping, looting, and pillaging, perhaps the riot cops wouldn't be neccesary. Perhaps they wouldn't anticipate and deploy them whenever any sort of large protest happens.

In other cases, mistakes happen. It is a sad fact of life. Sometimes police get the wrong house, and that is regrettable. Sometimes a truly innocent bystander is in the wrong place, at the wrong time, and a life may even be lost. Sometimes a gypsy cop may be having such a bad day that they end up taking out all their rage and frustration on a person who resists arrest. I neither condone or excuse these things, but I do have the sensability to recognize that they are the exception, and not the norm. I also have enough personal experience in events later reported by the media, to know that they can often be so heavily biased as to not even remotely resemble the situation.

If a bunch of cops suddenly kicked open my door in the middle of the night, and drew guns on my family, then realized they had the wrong house, and apologized, I would calmly send them a bill for any damaged property, and it would be replaced. Just like if a waitor accidentally spilled wine all over my coat, I'd send them a bill for the cleaning, and dismiss it as a mistake. Because people are human, and make mistakes sometimes.

If they shot one of my family, I know that they would be brought up on charges, lose their job, be publicly discredited forever more, and the legal system would most likely award us enough money to live comfortably the rest of our lives. While this would never bring back the life of my wife or child, it would punish the system so much as to make it even less likely to happen in the future.

I won't deny that these things have all happened in the past. I know they have, but again, it is not indicative of any kind of conspiracy. It is only a testament to the fallability of humans on both sides of the law.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Finally, have a look at the FEMA executive orders, to be deployed under martial law:

(snip executive orders)

Interesting. This is the first evidence I've seen in your arguement. I'll look these up and read on them before making further comment about them.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Are you still confident?

As I said the NWO is happening, nobody can stop it, but it's better you become aware of it now, than later, because it gives you time to prepare. If not, then good luck.

I'm still quite confident. So far the only reasonable evidence you've provided are those FEMA Executive Orders, and I still intend to research them before I take them seriously. You want me to become more aware, you're going to need to provide more evidence in the meantime. If you want to succesfully to convey your arguement, you'll need to work on your choice of words. And frankly, even if there is a OWG in the works, your defeatist attitude about not being able to do anything about it needs to change as well, otherwise, there's no point in expressing it in the first place.

Finally, I respond to your movie cliche of the red pill with one from another movie:

No Fate.

I invite serious discussion, but you are discussing a topic with me, that I have discussed over and over again, and researched as extensively as my means could permit, and I am more than convinced in what I am saying; otherwise I wouldn't say it. I am not wrong, but if you can produce evidence to the contrary, I would reconsider. Further, you do not have to worry about me being offended by what you say is a condescending tone, which I do did not find by the way, but I am immune to this. I will, however terminate discussion at my own discretion. I hope you don't mind, but I am getting sick of discussing whether the inevitable will happen.

Well, I'm sorry, but having come from many years worth of training in debate, speech competitions, essay contests, Toastmasters International, and various other such avenues of education, one of the most important aspects of a persuasive arguement, time and time again, has been to use the correct terminology.

I have absolutely no special training in debate, speech or essays. I only rely on common sense, my intuition and my intellects. It 's working better than your training.

And I'll even leave myself open to the concept of what you are trying to say, but if you want to convince those who actually have an education in government and political structure, it is vital that you use the correct terms. And if someone, like myself, understands what you are trying to say, and takes the time to listen and figure it out, and then when they do, suggests a more appropriate word, you might consider using that word instead instead of repeatedly defending the wrong words.

I am not trying to show you up, but so far it is you who have been using the incorrect terms, which shows poor verbal comprehension. Such as trying to say a hive-mind, or a society homogenized to a collective mindset, ruled by an elite, is unification, or every government is an oligarchy. To then claim you have special training and education in these fields, in light of that, is quite comedic for me.

See, I still have to disagree here. Germany and Russia, in WWII, were both very authoritarian states, yet they still ended up on opposite sides of the war. China and Japan are perhaps even better examples, as in WWII, both were extremely authoritarian, dogmatic, bigoted, and had an orthodoxy dating back thousands of years, and yet still ended up on opposite sides of the war.

Additionaly, you still use the wrong word here. "Liberals," as I understand the term, are just as prone to bigotry, orthodox views, authoritarian attitudes, and dogmatic practices. For instance, PETA (about as liberal a group as they come), if they had their way, would force the rest of the nation to take their views on animals and enact strict laws and harsh punishments for those that broke them. Any strongly religious Liberal is already, by definition, following dogmatic practices. Some Liberals have traditions dating back hundreds or thousands of years, and adhere to them strongly.

And just as important to the arguement is the fact that "Conservatives" can be just as anti-orthodox, nontraditional, and unbigoted as any Liberal. My own father is a prime example. He's not very religious. Any traditions he has are traditions he made up to keep the family together (such as lunch on Sunday). As for bigoted, he married my mom (a Native American) has a son (me) who's marrying a Latina, and acts as a primary liason to Japan for his company. He enjoys discussing the Talmud with his Jewish friends, the Bible with his Christian friends, and the Quraan with his Muslim friends, but subscribes to none of them. Yet he is very conservative when it comes to politics, because he believes that Conservatives have better fiscal policy, and for the most part, has been proven correct.

I am not talking about the liberal term in the context of political theories or parties, and I've already made that clear by producing one of the literal definitions. I've told you that I am not going to engage in petty discussion of semantics of words. I consider it is a glorified waste of my time. We are discussing "liberals" in the context of "NWO" as in a group of people who deny authoritarian and fascist rule.

As I showed you earlier with the sovereign term. An independent nation differs with the NWO's plans for an oligarchic and fascist One World Government. In the same way, a liberal group differs with the NWO's authoritarian/fascist government. Does that make sense? Yes it does. Next.

Ignorance and Racism will exist regardless of government, because of mankinds inherent sense of xenophobia against that which is different.

Yes, mankind has an inherent xenophobia and ignorance, which is only another manifestation of the root fear: the fear of the unknown. However, masses of people do not engage in organized genocidal or racist behavior nationwide without being externally influenced and manipulated. This what Hitler did. He amplified and manipulated an already existing prejudice and xenophobia through skiled propoganda.

We are witnessing the same kind of manipulation through skilled propoganda again. However, the Bush government is doing this through subltle propaganda, while on the surface claiming to be sympathetic to the Muslims. That is the real BS.

Further, I suppose you have no idea that 9/11 was a staged event by the Bush administration to usher in the police state laws and justify the wars, that even you agree, are illegal. This is another form of skilled psychological mind control. It's called Problem Reaction Solution. The jews were Hitlers scapegoat. The Muslims are Bush's. There has already been state arrests of Muslims.

On the contrary. It is BECAUSE I see, that I DO care about elections. It's the people who do not vote that allow antichrists like Bush into office. It's apathy like yours that allows a lapdog senate and house. It's that kind of attitude that lets the ignorant rule and the few to govern. You dare to lecture me on how I cannot see, when you do not even bother to vote?

I sat and watched every single minute of the debates. I followed Nader's stances and interviews with a Hawk's eye. I watched Farenheit 9/11 then watched Farenhype 9/11 just to get both sides to the story. I read article after article, from as many publications as I could, and when I finally decided to vote for Kerry, despite being in a "red state", I walked into the voting booth knowing that despite the fact the Texan electoral votes would probably go to Bush, I was voting my conscience with as much information as I could obtain, and as much forethought and meditation on the subject as was needed.

Your vote DOES count. It DOES change the government, and it DOES change the world. If enough people who didn't want Bush in office had gotten off their stupid high horse, and come down among us "blind folk" long enough to cast their ballot, Bush would not be in the White House right now. Kerry would. Despite what you think you know, the System DOES work. It works really really well. But because of this retarded attitude that one's vote doesn't matter, or wouldn't make a difference, you ALLOW ignorant tyranny and oppression to continue.

You aren't a revolutionary, you aren't a seer, you apparently aren't even all that educated on the subject you're trying to discuss. If you were, you would use any and all means to fight it, and that includes work both in and outside of the system. You want to make a difference, and talk about how messed up our government is, fine. But don't expect me to think you anything other than an armchair revolutionary until you get off your lazy butt and vote, because THAT is the only non-violent way that will ever truly determine who runs our country.

Then you are deluding yourself like the rest. Your vote does not matter. Hear it again. Your vote does not matter. It never did. The leaders are selected by their bloodlines of uber-rich families. There has not been a single president of the US that has been a common man. All of the elections have been fradulent. I do not have to have a degree in politcs to know that. The skull and bones and the masons are where the leaders are chosen. This time around, both Bush and Kerry, were both Skull and bones. There have been three presidents who were Skull and Bones. The state is run by a shadow government, a government behind the elected government, and this is an actual fact, jack. This is why the actions of Reagan 20 years ago, that seeded the war on terrorism, have lead to fruitation today. This is why the actions of Ford and Henry Kissinger 30 years ago, have lead to the invasion of East Timor in 1999. This is why George Bush Sr and Clinton's actions lead to the Iraq war of today.

Did you have a vote on the Patriot Act I and II. Did you have a vote on the wars? Do you have a vote on the concentration camps set-up for mass dissidents. No you didn't. Stop deluding yourself. Many of these proposals were passed in congress without analysis and reading of many members. The orders come from the higher up in the pyramid. The elected governments are nothing but puppets. Like the puppet government in Iraq right now.

If you want your freedom, you go out there and fight for it, you are not going to get it handed to you because of one paper with your nomination on it. To learn who you are fighting, you need to remove the cover of darkness of your enemy in the shadows. That is what a liberal and true patriot does. They fight for their freedom and god-given rights.

What, you mean being a responsible adult, and PAYING my way through life instead of letting someone else pay for me? You mean that, by showing up at work each day, and EARNING my pay, that I am bowing down to the man? You mean to say that by putting food on the table for my family, and making sure we have running water and electricity, that I am some sort of drone or zombie? Would you have me instead go live in the woods, in a wooden shack, hunting my food while my wife plows the garden? Or do you mean I should expect these things to be provided to me on a silver platter, with no concerns about the future? If so, who's going to pay for it?

You have no choice, but to to use the system, otherwise you cannot survive. I am telling you the system is in place to breed complanecy, to make you dependent on it and to keep you away from the truth. They indoctrinate you with education and religion and braiwash you with false beliefs to keep you from the truth. The truth is there is no need for fossil fuels, the men-god elites are sitting on ZPE. That will provide you more than enough to run your entire household. The truth is alternative forms of medicine and healing are much more effective than conventional drug and surgical medicine. The truth is you are a far more complex and powerful being than you see yourself as. The truth is the universe is vast and multidimensional.

You are leasing your property and possesions from the state. The moment they pull the plug, the illusion is over, and you find you have nothing. As I quoted earlier: None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free

I never watch sports, almost never watch television, and while I do watch movies, it is to broaden my horizons and experience something I might not otherwise see.

I am not the pawn you think I am. I am not a mindless Grunty who sits before the electric hearth at night, keeping myself entertained, and then drone into work for The Man the next day. Every day I seek to enlighten myself further, and instead of rabidly clinging to a view, I leave myself open enough to accept new ideas, or even the idea that I am wrong. And it is because of this that I do not automatically buy into your statements, and instead argue them.

Well most people do, and that is what I am illustrating to you. The moment most of these people leave the human martix, the NWO is in trouble. The NWO thrives in the dark. If you remove the cover of darkness, it will begin to suffocate.

What ammendments??? Where? The only amendment that's ever come out in my entire lifetime is the 27th Amendment, which took 200 YEARS to eventually pass! Bush has proposed a new Amendment about defining marriage, but even his lapdog legislation appear to have opted against this, because ammending the U.S. Constitution is such a grueling process, and requires such a large majority, that it is almost impossible even with the absolute best of intentions that everyone agrees with (much less something that many people do not agree with).

Did you do ANY real research on this, or are you old enough that the 11 Ammendments (almost all of which took over 100 years worth of work to pass) in the last century seem like a lot?

You have obviously not read anything about the Patriot act I and II and the National ID card.

Sometimes, yes. I agree. And thanks to people not voting, those laws get passed.
I can't say anything about the "wars" claim, because I agree.

The people don't even know that these laws actually exist. If you ask the common man on the street what the patriot act is, he wouldn't have a clue. These laws are quickly passed without few knowing. There is nothing you can do about it. Except to take a proactive role and educate the public and make them aware. Try telling some common man what the Patriot act is and he'll be dumbfounded "you're boring me dawg, let's talk about football"

Okay, you've officially entered uncredible tabloid-land. Had you bothered to name a specific individual, it would be called libel, and you'd probably get sued. And I'm not even going to honor this by arguing it until you provide a shred of evidence other than your word. Speaking as a paranoid schizophrenic, if you honestly believe this stuff, you either need evidence, or you need therapy. Now if you can provide me genuine (not photoshopped) photos of Bush or any other member of my government doing these things, or documents listing my name on the "Terminate" list, or any other sort of credible evidence, I'll listen further, otherwise, you've just shot all your credibility to hell, and only the insane people would believe you

You have just illustrated what I said about the self contained policing system. The sheep are also the sheepdog for the other sheep and keep them in line. That is exactly how the system works. You give the masses a version of reality so unlike the real one, that if anyone ever tells them the truth, they would think it is completely preposterous and absurd. Yet can you possibly conceive the CIA was caught in traffiking children for ritualistic abuse for the elite rich? Can you possibly conceive that the Present of America has gone through sanataic rituals where he had to masturbate in a coffin, swear to keep secrecy over a false murder, and recite the following in front of someone weilding a butchers knife "The Hangman equals death. The Devil equals Death. Death equals Death" Who do you think is doing the cow mutilations? Where do you think the legends of vampires originates from?

This is reality. The elite bloodlines that rule this world are occultists. Are you surprised that even Hitler and the Nazi's were involved in the occult. Do you even know these men-god elites plan to exterminate more than 90% of the worlds population. There is so much you don't know about reality. You are not educated about reality. You are actually living in a society where a lot of satanic symbolism and ideaology is prevalent.

Even I found it very difficult, and as an open-minded person, the satanical angle of the NWO really tested my imagination. You need to do your research. We are talking abouot an highly evil NWO, and you witnessed some of that evil, in the Nazi's. Evil exists; just like good exists.

Indigo, I left the Matrix a long time ago. But I didn't exchange one blindfold for another. You really want to see? Then open your eyes and read, research, and always challenge your own beliefs, and leave yourself open to the idea that you are wrong, and adapt your views when neccesary. Do this day in, day out, for decades, and I think you'll find a lot more of the truth than can be found in one sci-fi conspiracy film. I have seen things more wonderous than most people can imagine, and experienced things more terrible than most people's nightmares because of it, and I still have enough of a grip on reality to know you can't just say A = B. You have to proof out the equation.

I leave myself open to the possibility that you are, in fact, correct, but your choice of ways to convince me of it are sorely lacking in anything other than cliche and paranoid rantings.

I have read, researched and challenged my views. It is you who haven't. Otherwise you would actually know an evil transnational cabal; a shadow government does exist. In fact just recently the shadow government was reported in mainstream media. I am not going to provide the evidence for you, I would like you to do your own research for once.

Economics having been my major in college, I'm pretty sure I have a firm understanding of the way money works. Or is College Education also merely a tool of The NWO to corrupt my mind?

You are taught obsolete ideas, false history and incorrect principles in nearly every discipline. Not intentionally. It is just the system set by the state. If only people knew the theories of space, time and gravity are wrong. They are still being taught Newtownian mechanics from hundreds of years ago. I know law graduates who don't even know what the Patriot act is. Further, college education, destroys your ability to think independently, because you are predisposed to a certain way of thinking.

For instance, you claim you are trained in debate, essays and speech, yet you display such poor verbal comprehension. Some of the most stupid and closeminded people I have met have been college graduates. All a college education is good for is as an introduction to a disciplne. I remember talking to someone with an MD in physics who did not even know that we had actually produced anti-matter, he thought it was speculation. My college professor in physics told me I was delusional, simply because I expressed interest in the paranormal. So, telling me you've majored this and that, is not going to impress me at all. I weigh a person's true intelligence and character from what he says and does. Not from a piece of paper.

I'm sure I'm going to regret this, but no, in fact, no one in America truly owns the land anymore. It is on lease from the state or federal government. At some point, I'll try to find the specific legislation on this, it's been too long since I've read them to accurately go into much more detail, but that's what it amounts to.

Yes, no American truly owns the land. The land is owned by the state and the uber-rich with purchasing power.

All that depends on the current administration and the tax laws of that year, and they do change with every administration, and every year. But the true reason that the rich are self-dependant is not any sort of conspiracy at all, it's simply having the discipline to let your money work for you, and having the buying power to buy smart, instead of cheap.

Yes, it is economics. I did not say it was a conspiracy. What I am saying that they deliberately keep citizens under debt, tax them, make them pay bills and consume overpriced products to keep them in poverty. More than 90% of the common people let them. As I said it a self-contained system. If people woke up, all they need is the intention and will to, and things could change. As long as the common man is dependent and in debt, he is poor.

The only time I've ever seen these guys deployed is when the people got out of hand to a point when it was required. The Rodney King riots, the WTO riots, and so forth...

A few dozen thousand people were all out of control? According to a majority of the reports from varied sources, the demonstrations were peaceful, and there was only one rouge group, that was suspected of being implanted, They were brutally attacked by the state. This is not an isolated incident, it's happend in many other peaceful protests too. According to the Patriot Act such acts can be considered acts of domestic terrorism and the participants jailed for life.

In other cases, mistakes happen. It is a sad fact of life. Sometimes police get the wrong house, and that is regrettable. Sometimes a truly innocent bystander is in the wrong place, at the wrong time, and a life may even be lost. Sometimes a gypsy cop may be having such a bad day that they end up taking out all their rage and frustration on a person who resists arrest. I neither condone or excuse these things, but I do have the sensability to recognize that they are the exception, and not the norm. I also have enough personal experience in events later reported by the media, to know that they can often be so heavily biased as to not even remotely resemble the situation.

If a bunch of cops suddenly kicked open my door in the middle of the night, and drew guns on my family, then realized they had the wrong house, and apologized, I would calmly send them a bill for any damaged property, and it would be replaced. Just like if a waitor accidentally spilled wine all over my coat, I'd send them a bill for the cleaning, and dismiss it as a mistake. Because people are human, and make mistakes sometimes.

If they shot one of my family, I know that they would be brought up on charges, lose their job, be publicly discredited forever more, and the legal system would most likely award us enough money to live comfortably the rest of our lives. While this would never bring back the life of my wife or child, it would punish the system so much as to make it even less likely to happen in the future.

I won't deny that these things have all happened in the past. I know they have, but again, it is not indicative of any kind of conspiracy. It is only a testament to the fallability of humans on both sides of the law.

You were claiming that no one has kicked your door down or beaten you like a dog to suggest that your state is safe. I have shown you otherwise. I often see all police brutality or even US army brutality, attributed to human fallability or isolated cases. Yet, the commonality and frequency of such events in security forces demonstrates that this is an institutional problem. It is hardly surprising consider the training process systematically dehumanizes them. WACO, where an entire special operation was involved in burning down a building and killing 70 civlians, including childten. WTO, Miami, Portland, Oregon. Shooting on children and killing children. Entire operations against schools and neighbourhoods. Tanks on streets. Mass troop exercises in the middle of the streets. These events have all happened within months or a few years. That's not human infalliblity. That is the state. You have military running around amok on your streets.

Do you have any idea what would happen during Martial law? You don't have to guess, just read what they have planned for you.

I'm still quite confident. So far the only reasonable evidence you've provided are those FEMA Executive Orders, and I still intend to research them before I take them seriously. You want me to become more aware, you're going to need to provide more evidence in the meantime. If you want to succesfully to convey your arguement, you'll need to work on your choice of words. And frankly, even if there is a OWG in the works, your defeatist attitude about not being able to do anything about it needs to change as well, otherwise, there's no point in expressing it in the first place.

I am not going to have to do anything. I have given you the pointers in this post for you seek your own evidence. The execute orders, and the subplots of operation cable splicer and garden plot are hard facts. If you are confident knowing that your president has gone through satanic rituals, that your state has passed laws that Hitler passed, that is involved in the genocide of innocent people, and that there are executive orders in place to throw you into prison camps. Then you are being plain delusional.

Now, I think I'll get some sleep.

[edit on 11-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]