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To The Catholics of ATS

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posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 07:22 PM
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a reply to: adjensen

Yes sorry the Catholic church, So where on earth does the whole fallen angel Lucifer come from?

There is such a huge misconception built up around this word and what it represents i find it hard to grasp how this happened, although thinking about it planets and Gods/beings have gone hand in hand for a very long time.




posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 08:15 PM
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a reply to: JokerThe1st


Yes sorry the Catholic church, So where on earth does the whole fallen angel Lucifer come from?

Again, Lucifer is a Protestant mistake, he's not a fallen angel.

As for where Satan the fallen angel stuff came from, I always assumed that it was from Jewish folklore that is not included in the Hebrew Bible, but I guess that I don't know, sorry.



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 08:40 PM
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a reply to: adjensen

Sorry i did not mean to make you repeat yourself, As far as Satan goes from a Jewish perspective, and the link to Samael


The original Hebrew term, satan, is a noun from a verb meaning primarily to, “obstruct, oppose,” as it is found in Numbers 22:22, 1 Samuel 29:4, Psalms 109:6.[6] Ha-Satan is traditionally translated as “the accuser,” or “the adversary.” The definite article “ha-,” English “the," is used to show that this is a title bestowed on a being, versus the name of a being. Thus this being would be referred to as “the satan.”



Samael (Hebrew: סמאל‎) (Severity of God) (also Sammael or Samil) is an important archangel in Talmudic and post-Talmudic lore, a figure who is accuser, seducer and destroyer, and has been regarded as both good and evil. It is said that he was the guardian angel of Esau and a patron of the Roman empire. He is considered in Talmudic texts to be a member of the heavenly host (with often grim and destructive duties). One of Samael's greatest roles in Jewish lore is that of the angel of death. He remains one of the Lord's servants even though he appears to want men to do evil. As a good angel, Samael resides in the seventh heaven, although he is declared to be the chief angel of the fifth heaven, the reason for this being the presence of the throne of glory in the fifth heaven.[1



In the Apocryphon of John c. 120-180 AD, the Demiurge arrogantly declares that he has made the world by himself: Now the archon (ruler) who is weak has three names. The first name is Yaltabaoth, the second is Saklas (“fool”), and the third is Samael. And he is impious in his arrogance which is in him. For he said, "I am God and there is no other God beside me," for he is ignorant of his strength, the place from which he had come.


Wikipedia


edit on 24-7-2014 by JokerThe1st because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-7-2014 by JokerThe1st because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 03:21 AM
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Wow! I just saw this thread, up late to pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.

JokerThe1st,

There's so much to share. I just told a friend here at ATS, read the autobiographies of the saints. A brilliant
scholar by chance picked up an autobiography of a saint in a friend's home on visiting them one weekend.

She read it and couldn't put it down, it was the autobiography of St. Teresa of Avila, a mystic. It might be on the Net to read, I would have to check. This oh so smart woman converted, she became a Carmelite sister and died in Auschwitz!

She was Jewish, her name was Edith Stein.

I'll say it a hundred times, 99,8% of the miraculous points to Christ. Free will, you just have to believe. Ask Our Lord in prayer to give you more grace so you do. He will. Time is short.


GBY,



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 05:16 PM
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a reply to: colbe

Welcome colbe
was wondering if you would notice the thread


I shall have a search for the book sounds like an interesting read.

please feel free to address the questions posed so far, hopefully more will join in the discussion



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 05:26 PM
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originally posted by: JokerThe1st
a reply to: adjensen

What is the Catholic's opinion on The Knights Templar ? after all they were officially endorsed by the Catholic church, I understand there was a whole fuss over some accusations of who they worshiped etc...

Is there any real evidence of this?

Regarding Freemasonry
Also in this day and age i find it hard to understand why The Catholic church is still against masonry. As a lot of there ideals are peaceful.

After years of searching i have never found that smoking gun that so many believe Freemasonry guilty of, Should people not be measured by there deeds and not which group they belong to ?


The Knights Templar existed for about 200 years during the High Middle Ages. Your average Catholic knows a lot less about them than history students and conspiracy theorists. In my Opinion, they were a group that went through different phases during their tenure and some of those phases they abused power and were corrupt. I do not think they were involved in any wacky conspiracy theories. More than likely their constant exposure to Islam allowed them to think of it in more realistic terms than Church officials and nobles back in Europe. This concept of Islam as something other than heretical evil probably got them in trouble, esp after King Phillip IV and his puppet Pope decided to go after their gold and take them out as a powerful rival group within Europe.

As someone who has grown up with Catholicism in heavily Catholic area (South Louisiana), I am aware that at some point the Church denounced Masonry. I know for sure, however, that there are people in this area that are both Catholic and Masons. Whether they are in conflict I don't know but it doesn't seem to be an issue for them. I doubt any possibility of "automatic excommunication." I may need to brush up on my Catechism but that sounds made up to me



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 05:39 PM
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a reply to: JokerThe1st

That's really more a personal question than a Catholic one, but I'll give you a Catholic perspective before mine (which would be a personalized version).
In more recent times, Catholicism is quite tolerant toward other religions, particularly other forms of Christianity and Judaism. The old hatreds about transubstantiation, veneration of Mary, the succession of Peter, etc are not around anymore for the most part. Catholicism, in my experience, tends to have more of a "live and let live" attitude these days.

An aspect of my own attitudes toward other faiths/beliefs is that what works for me may not work for others. Finding your own spiritual way is what matters. For me, my Catholic background and setting are helping me do that. For others, it may be Hinduism, Baptist theology, Wiccanism, Secular humanism, or whatever. I do not think an official Catholic position would agree with this, though.



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 05:47 PM
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originally posted by: JokerThe1st
OK lets get another one going

How do you guys view :

The Devil
Lucifer
Satan

To me these 3 beings/names/archetypes hold very different meanings.



To most Catholics these would be 3 different names for the same dude.
"Lucifer" comes from what many believe to be a misinterpreted passage from the Old Testament about an arrogant pagan ruler. I know that many in the modern world view him as a Prometheus figure. I think he was largely popularized by Dante's inferno. The war in Heaven and Lucifer as the leader of the fallen angels is not from the Bible or any early teachings. It grew as a myth and lots of folks believe it (All respect to them, I am not one of those people).

AS far as the differences between Satan, Lucifer, and the Devil, I don't know anything about that.



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 06:02 PM
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a reply to: pierregustavetoutant


I doubt any possibility of "automatic excommunication." I may need to brush up on my Catechism but that sounds made up to me

No, it isn't made up. I cited the Canon Law in the article that I linked to earlier.



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 06:07 PM
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originally posted by: pierregustavetoutant
I am aware that at some point the Church denounced Masonry. I know for sure, however, that there are people in this area that are both Catholic and Masons.... I doubt any possibility of "automatic excommunication." I may need to brush up on my Catechism but that sounds made up to me


They are automatically excommunicated according to Church law. However, the lay people are unaware of the laws and a lot of the parish priests either don't know about them or don't care. The law is on the books and it is a valid law. But as to it being acknowledged and enforced ... it depends on the parish.



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 06:29 PM
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originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: pierregustavetoutant
I am aware that at some point the Church denounced Masonry. I know for sure, however, that there are people in this area that are both Catholic and Masons.... I doubt any possibility of "automatic excommunication." I may need to brush up on my Catechism but that sounds made up to me


They are automatically excommunicated according to Church law. However, the lay people are unaware of the laws and a lot of the parish priests either don't know about them or don't care. The law is on the books and it is a valid law. But as to it being acknowledged and enforced ... it depends on the parish.



FF, very well said! Many Catholics do not know the Faith, hasn't been taught as it should for two plus generations.

As my college age child who likes to quote the series Game of Thrones which is Emmy nominated. Who can figure why?


"These are dark times!!"



p.s. I like your new avatar pic FlyersFan.



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 06:42 PM
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a reply to: FlyersFan
Gotcha. South Louisiana has been very Catholic since the 1700s but we kind of do our own thing. From what I've heard, parishes that are in the midst of larger Catholic communities tend to be more lenient and laid back than parishes that are surrounded by Protestants.
Not sure why that would be but I've seen evidence (visiting other parts of the U.S.) that it is true.



posted on Jul, 26 2014 @ 12:36 AM
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originally posted by: JokerThe1st
a reply to: colbe

Welcome colbe
was wondering if you would notice the thread


I shall have a search for the book sounds like an interesting read.

please feel free to address the questions posed so far, hopefully more will join in the discussion


Thanks JokerThe1st.

I looked, I found St. Teresa of Avila's autobiography to read online. I haven't read it yet. I bought a copy a couple of years ago and sent it on to my niece in New York City. She is so young, working in Manhattan. I told her to go sit in St. Patrick's Cathedral and read it. ??? I do not know if she did.

One thing St. Teresa shared, has been quoted, Teresa and her brother, when they were children wished to be martyrs so they could die quick and be assured of Heaven (youth).

I bet there are other Catholic classics to read at the link, go back to the home page.

www.ccel.org...





posted on Jul, 27 2014 @ 05:30 PM
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New question people

What level of access does the Vatican grant to people who want to see around?

also does Catholicism believe in or support a holy war so to speak ?



posted on Jul, 28 2014 @ 06:41 AM
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originally posted by: JokerThe1st
What level of access does the Vatican grant to people who want to see around?

It depends on who the 'people' are. The Vatican is open to visitors and tourists. Archeologists and historians get more access - like to the catacombs and the historical digs around the complex. There is a so-called 'secret archive' which is really a holding vault for historical artifacts. Sometimes those are put out on view for the public. But they are VERY delicate and VERY valuable so the general public isn't given access for obvious reasons ... it's too dangerous for the artifacts. However, historians and archivists and archeologists are allowed, with special permission, to access and inspect artifacts and documents. Some of the religious ones may have special restrictions on them ... restrictions about handling and, because of religious veneration issues, they may not be open to be handled. That would be a question for the vatican itself.


also does Catholicism believe in or support a holy war so to speak ?

The Catechism is clear - do not slay innocent people. And people living peaceful lives and minding their own business should not be slain simply because they worship a different god (or no god at all).

Catholic Catechism on War
The Catholic Church calls war ..... 'the ancient bondage of war'. War is de-evolved and archaic and something to be avoided. However, if a nation is threatened, then the leadership of that nation has a right to call upon the citizens to arm themselves and protect themselves.


2261 Scripture specifies the prohibition contained in the fifth commandment: "Do not slay the innocent and the righteous."61 The deliberate murder of an innocent person is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human being, to the golden rule, and to the holiness of the Creator. The law forbidding it is universally valid: it obliges each and everyone, always and everywhere.



2307 The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.105

2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.

However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed.




2310 Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.

Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.107



2315 The accumulation of arms strikes many as a paradoxically suitable way of deterring potential adversaries from war. They see it as the most effective means of ensuring peace among nations. This method of deterrence gives rise to strong moral reservations. The arms race does not ensure peace. Far from eliminating the causes of war, it risks aggravating them. Spending enormous sums to produce ever new types of weapons impedes efforts to aid needy populations;111 it thwarts the development of peoples. Over-armament multiplies reasons for conflict and increases the danger of escalation.

2316 The production and the sale of arms affect the common good of nations and of the international community. Hence public authorities have the right and duty to regulate them. The short-term pursuit of private or collective interests cannot legitimate undertakings that promote violence and conflict among nations and compromise the international juridical order.


Take note ... The church does not believe in having a weapons stockpile in order to avert being attacked. (the Reagan Doctrine). I disagree with the church on this. It could be interpreted that the Catholic church also teaches a 'measured response' type war. I also disagree with the church on this. The Church also calls for tight gun control laws and #2316 looks like it could be used as a tool to disarm the public (anti-2nd amendment in the USA). I also disagree with the church on this.



posted on Jul, 28 2014 @ 03:54 PM
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I was nominally raised a Catholic but despite repeated attempts of several 'teachers' and members of the clergy I was never convinced and now consider myself Agnostic.

However, much of its teachings remain with me and I'd be naïve to the extreme if I didn't believe it has at least contributed to my own personal beliefs and the standards by which I try to live my life.

There's obviously members here on this thread who are far more learned and informed of Catholic teaching etc than I and I might be being overly simplistic here but I'm sure I was taught, (instructed?), that the three main beliefs that separate Catholicism from all the other Christian denominations are;
1. Papal infallibility.
2. Transubstantiation.
3. The Virgin Birth.

Sure there are other differences as well, but there are countless differences between all the other Protestant / Orthodox etc denominations.

I'm not entirely sure that each is unique to Catholicism but I'm almost certain that belief in all three are indeed unique.

As for the 'fallen angel - Lucifer' and things like that, again, others are far more qualified to comment on but I'm seem to recall being informed that the origins of much that is taught in relation to that lies within Jewish folklore and even Cabbalic belief - but I could be easily wrong.

In practical terms I would say that faithful Catholics seem to be a little bit more cheerful and less solemn than their Protestant counter-parts who do appear overly dour and if I'm honest miserable the majority of the time.

I think that here in the UK where Catholics are by far the largest minority there are many misconceptions in the general populace about Catholics and there beliefs etc.

Got to say that some of the more scripture based posts in this thread went a bit over my head - something I'm not really accustomed to or comfortable with.



posted on Jul, 28 2014 @ 05:55 PM
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a reply to: FlyersFan

Thank you for yet again another info filled reply


I am sorry i keep carrying this on instead of looking these things up myself, part of my reasoning is to address as many important questions as possible to give others here a good over all take on Catholicism that they can read through and learn to understand a bit better if they want to of course.

But yes i appreciate your time and effort in the reply's you are giving.



posted on Jul, 28 2014 @ 06:02 PM
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a reply to: Freeborn

Interesting take thank you, if there is one thing i am beginning to see with all this is that the people are a lot nicer and wiser than the perceptions portray.

I know this can not be said of all but in time i see a day where understanding and tolerance are the norm



posted on Jul, 28 2014 @ 08:13 PM
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a reply to: Freeborn


3. The Virgin Birth.

I think that you mean the perpetual virginity of Mary -- belief in the virgin birth of Christ is universal among Christians.

The biggest bones of contention between Catholicism and Protestantism are the three Solas -- Sola Scriptura (scripture alone,) Sola Fide (faith alone) and Sola Gratia (grace alone,) which are largely rooted in the belief of Luther and Zwingli (and, later, Calvin,) that man is inherently depraved and can play no role in his own salvation. Most of everything else that Protestants don't like about Catholics tends to be things that they think we believe, but which we actually do not (like "worshiping Mary" or thinking that the Pope is divine.)



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 05:22 AM
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a reply to: adjensen



I think that you mean the perpetual virginity of Mary -- belief in the virgin birth of Christ is universal among Christians.


Yes, I was wrong - it is the belief in the immaculate Conception of Mary that is unique to Catholicism.



The biggest bones of contention between Catholicism and Protestantism are the three Solas


I have just read up on them.
Whilst I wasn't aware of the terminology etc, I was however aware of quite a large amount of the detail and that they were contentious - its amazing what pieces of information we can recall once prompted.



......which are largely rooted in the belief of Luther and Zwingli (and, later, Calvin,) that man is inherently depraved and can play no role in his own salvation.


Which may be the root of the dourness and the apparent outwardly miserableness of some of the more devout or fundamental Protestants.



Most of everything else that Protestants don't like about Catholics tends to be things that they think we believe, but which we actually do not (like "worshiping Mary" or thinking that the Pope is divine.)


They are hardly unique in that.
The root of most dislike and mistrust is based on ignorance - and that is a damning indictment of mankind as a whole regardless of race or creed.



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