Our understanding of existence demands miracles.

a reply to: TzarChasm

god can come from nothing.

the universe cannot.

this has not been explained.

Actually, it's fairly easy to explain.

If God exists outside of time, he can be eternal.

Because the universe exists in time, it cannot be eternal -- it can have an infinite future, but it can't have an infinite past, or this moment could not be here.

Because the creation cannot contain the creator, we know that, if there is a creator, he existed outside of time, so he didn't "come from nothing", he just was, is and always will be -- being eternal, there is no need for him to be created.

a reply to: TzarChasm

god came from nothing. not a miracle.

What if we consider one ultimate fact? That there must be
a causeless cause at some point? Because an infinite number of
retro-generations is even more impossible than God, even to you.
God would simply be the causeless cause. And that to me, makes
more sense than anything I've ever come across.

originally posted by: adjensen
a reply to: TzarChasm

god can come from nothing.

the universe cannot.

this has not been explained.

Actually, it's fairly easy to explain.

If God exists outside of time, he can be eternal.

Because the universe exists in time, it cannot be eternal -- it can have an infinite future, but it can't have an infinite past, or this moment could not be here.

Because the creation cannot contain the creator, we know that, if there is a creator, he existed outside of time, so he didn't "come from nothing", he just was, is and always will be -- being eternal, there is no need for him to be created.

'exists outside of time' a very speculative and theoretical proposition if ever i read one.

a reply to: TzarChasm

'exists outside of time' a very speculative and theoretical proposition if ever i read one.

Not really, that's pretty much how the Abrahamic religions always viewed God, even before anyone really understood anything about time or relativity. I presume that you understand the bit about how the universe, being in time, cannot be eternal.

But perhaps you can explain to me how the creator of something can exist in his creation before he has created it.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: TzarChasm

god came from nothing. not a miracle.

What if we consider one ultimate fact? That there must be
a causeless cause at some point? Because an infinite number of
retro-generations is even more impossible than God, even to you.
God would simply be the causeless cause. And that to me, makes
more sense than anything I've ever come across.

eh??? since when has that been an ultimate fact??? and who decided that??

originally posted by: adjensen
a reply to: TzarChasm

'exists outside of time' a very speculative and theoretical proposition if ever i read one.

Not really, that's pretty much how the Abrahamic religions always viewed God, even before anyone really understood anything about time or relativity. I presume that you understand the bit about how the universe, being in time, cannot be eternal.

But perhaps you can explain to me how the creator of something can exist in his creation before he has created it.

there is nothing about creationism that i can explain to you. thats why i dont subscribe to it. i dont have a good answer, and evidently, neither do you or randy. that's okay tho, no one is demanding that we know everything.

a reply to: adjensen

Because the creation cannot contain the creator, we know that, if there is a creator, he existed outside of time, so he didn't "come from nothing", he just was, is and always will be -- being eternal, there is no need for him to be created.

Sounds like Russian dolls.

Is there a reductionist clause that allows for our creator to have been created by another one or is it 'turtles all the way down?'

a reply to: Kandinsky

Is there a reductionist clause that allows for our creator to have been created by another one or is it 'turtles all the way down?'

Now Kandy, that was intellectually dishonest and you know it.

a reply to: TzarChasm

eh??? since when has that been an ultimate fact??? and who decided that??

Oh sorry, it does require some thought.
Or
I did. And those are the rules that I've just made up.

a reply to: adjensen

But perhaps you can explain to me how the creator of something can exist in his creation before he has created it.

What did the creator create his creation out of? If there is nothing but the creator, then he must have used himself as the material. Hence, he exists in his creation.

a reply to: randyvs
Hello Randy, To me a miracle is an accepted truth that suspends reason, and is beyond the realm of science, if you will.
I call myself a scientist, and, for example, I will not state as a fact that Jesus did not turn water into wine. If you can show me evidence to convince me beyond a reasonable doubt, then I will fully accept it. If you can convince me that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, then I can believe it. But once I believe these things, they are no longer miracles, because they now (to me) would meet the rigorous standards of the scientific method. To me, all of reality exists within the realm of nature. Each and every true phenomenon within the universe conforms to the law of reason.

a reply to: Diderot

Now your post, I find very well thought out. And at the
same time very un negative, if may cast such a term.
I tend to like your post very much from the scientific point
of view. Good one.

One other thing tho, it does take water to make wine.

originally posted by: snowspirit
"Our understanding"

^those two words speak volumes.
That which we don't yet understand, fully, does seem miraculous.

even if we do understand something, it doesn't make it any less miraculous.

a reply to: taoistguy

even if we do understand something, it doesn't make it any less miraculous.

What an excellent point, I must say.

a reply to: Words

What did the creator create his creation out of? If there is nothing but the creator, then he must have used himself as the material. Hence, he exists in his creation.

Exactly. And, if the universe is made up of "pieces of god" then there's no reason why it can't also be eternal, with no beginning or end.

Also, if there is a god, there is no reason to assume that there aren't two gods, or infinite gods, or gods that create gods.

a reply to: randyvs

cheers. i got it off the back of a cornflakes packet.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Is it just me or have you actually softened your stance in some ways?

a reply to: windword

or gods that create gods.

Or for that matter, A GOD who creates what we perceive to
be Gods. No? Nice to have you with us Windword.

a reply to: randyvs

Or, a god the duplicates itself, like cells do.

a reply to: snowspirit

So true. We don't understand and we probably don't deserve to at this point (We have regressed. So much).We inhabit only a very small sector of our intellect. Our understanding is limited. All of the other potential has been shut down because although we have the intellectual capacity for working our own miracles, emotionally we're still the club dragging cave people braining each other for gimme, gimme gimme...Too dangerous. Like giving a rocket launcher to a four year old. He wants the candy - all of the candy - and he'd blow up everyone to get it.

What do we develop over all else? Weapons. To be used against our own kind. "He's not my kind, he's a Christian." or "He's not my kind, he's a Muslim" or blah, blah, blah throughout history. So you burned witches at the stake. Real witches would have turned their oppressors inside out. It made NO sense. You're all humans. Get a clue. Stop being stupid. There's no excuse for it anymore.

Humans have the capacity to be small gods of their realm. Again. If they just accept their fate as caretakers of a beautiful place...Stop the enslavement. Stop the wars. Stop being stupid. You are all born equal.