Ancient sources for rescued books from the Library of Alexandria

originally posted by: MerkabaMeditation
a reply to: Hanslune

How can you make a request for a document that you don't know they have? And, since the indexes are not publically available, how can you know what documents they do have? You don't get access to the Index Room without having beforehand told them the document you want. It's like the Chicken & the Egg and which came first - but with documents. Let us say you are looking for The Gospel of Mani, if you don't know the index to the document (like the title) then you will get a reply from the Secret Archive that it don't exist, and you will not be let into the Index Room to browse for it. See how silly this is?

-MM

I have no idea why you are having such a hard time with this. You are making something up that as far as I can determine doesn't happen

This is my understanding of the procedure:

You get authority to do research

You arrive and are admitted

You can look at the indexes and order what you want

If you think their is another way this is done could you document this?

originally posted by: mwood
It seems to be a huge loss for humanity. The same thing is happening right now and nobody is stopping it.

ISIS is destroying holy & historical sites that can never be replaced. Someday people will look back again and morn the losses.

It also happened with the Maya/Aztec cultures when the Spanish invaded and in China when a new dynasty was created. A LOT of knowledge was lost, and perhaps a lot of mistakes were repeated throughout history without those texts.

originally posted by: Kratos40

originally posted by: mwood
It seems to be a huge loss for humanity. The same thing is happening right now and nobody is stopping it.

ISIS is destroying holy & historical sites that can never be replaced. Someday people will look back again and morn the losses.

It also happened with the Maya/Aztec cultures when the Spanish invaded and in China when a new dynasty was created. A LOT of knowledge was lost, and perhaps a lot of mistakes were repeated throughout history without those texts.

A great deal over 95% of the writings of the Romans were lost the greatest known loss of existing material. With the Roman loss (that which the Eastern Roman Empire didn't save) was the loss of Greek materials too.

Link to a partial list of writing known to have been lost

originally posted by: Hanslune
I have no idea why you are having such a hard time with this. You are making something up that as far as I can determine doesn't happen

Here are some proof for you that the Vatican Secret Archives are far from publically available from the Vatican itself:

...there are sections of the Vatican Secrets that are not open to the public and it is only the Vatican that has access to these sections

Source: www.vatican.com

Publication of the indexes, in part or as a whole, is forbidden.

Source: ARCHIVUM SECRETUM VATICANUM - RULES FOR SCHOLARS

How is this in any manner a publically open archive?

-MM

originally posted by: MerkabaMeditation

originally posted by: Hanslune
I have no idea why you are having such a hard time with this. You are making something up that as far as I can determine doesn't happen

Here are some proof for you that the Vatican Secret Archives are far from publically available from the Vatican itself:

...there are sections of the Vatican Secrets that are not open to the public and it is only the Vatican that has access to these sections

Source: www.vatican.com

Publication of the indexes, in part or as a whole, is forbidden.

Source: ARCHIVUM SECRETUM VATICANUM - RULES FOR SCHOLARS

How is this in any manner a publically open archive?

-MM

Um...
Here's what the man said, in response to your statement that it isn't open to the public:

It is if you below to an a credited organization. I got in for a look see in 84. Also anyone can request photocopying of their material.

(my emphasis)
IOW, you're using a straw man. Hans told you the deal, but you feel the need to claim he said something that he never said.

It is open to the academic public that have an interest and reason to examine the materials. With the exceptions you've been told about (Hans, again.)

Harte

originally posted by: Harte
Um...
Here's what the man said, in response to your statement that it isn't open to the public:

It is if you below to an a credited organization. I got in for a look see in 84. Also anyone can request photocopying of their material.

(my emphasis)
IOW, you're using a straw man. Hans told you the deal, but you feel the need to claim he said something that he never said.

It is open to the academic public that have an interest and reason to examine the materials. With the exceptions you've been told about (Hans, again.)

Harte

I've never contradicted that scholars have access, see my post on the previous page:

originally posted by: MerkabaMeditation
True, even though "selected scholars" are let into the Vatican Secret Library, they still need to know what they are looking for to get access to it. This is a strange way of making something public to me, and it is obvious that they are hiding something . otherwise they would have made the library completely open to the public.

-MM

My claim is that the Varican Secret Archive is not easily nor publically accessable for scholars when:

1. The indexes are not public
   
2. Only for selected scholars
   
3. Parts of the Archive is not available to scholars
   

The worst part in my opinion is not knowing what is in there. If the document that you want to read is not referenced in any other work you can not get access to is as it is virtually impossible to find. Lets say you are looking for the lost work Acts of Solomon asreferenced in the bible. You may suspect that it is in the Vatican Secret Archives but since the indexes are not publically available you can not find it unless you visit the Vatican Secret Archive Index Room yourself. If you send a request for the book and its not easily found in the index you will not get access to the Index Room as the book then does not exist. Still, let us say you do get access to the Index Room to look for the Acts of Solomon, then just how do you find it without even knowing the indice of the Acts of Solomon?

A researcher who arrives at the ASV is presented with an array of items designed to provide access to specific archival material. While a list of the indici is available, there has been no overall schema readily apparent to the user to give that user a sense of the entire archives and how the various levels or groups of finding aids fit. At that most general level of inquiry, that of a general inventory, a standardized system assembled via a structured database seemed to hold the greatest potential for organizing and presenting relevant information.

Source: The Vatican Archives Project: Description and Methodology.

At current, the Secret Archives are indexed as follows:

First, there are numbered indici from to indentify the major collections, but even these indici that is your starting point are not complete. The works indexed before 1881 have indices 0-999, while "modern" indices are numbered 1,000 and upwards.

Secondly, the major collections are divided into two subsections:

There are several summary registers and inventories that were selected by the ASV staff and pulled from the stacks and placed in the Index Room to serve users as indici to the collections. In most cases these particular indici were prepared at the same time as the records themselves and were designed for administrative retrieval of particular records series. Written in diverse hands and often of unpredictable format, these can be much more difficult to use.

Source: The Vatican Archives Project: Description and Methodology.

Thirdly, there are a variety of specialized indices that are not provenance-based but rather reflect the interests or the energies of a particular archivist in relation to particular documents or subjects.

My conclusion is as follows; parts of the Secret Archive's contents are hidden by preventing scholar access, and other parts of the Archive are obfuscated by not making the indexes publically available or even allowing scholars the means to publish the indexes in parts or whole.

-MM

originally posted by: MerkabaMeditation

originally posted by: Hanslune
I have no idea why you are having such a hard time with this. You are making something up that as far as I can determine doesn't happen

Here are some proof for you that the Vatican Secret Archives are far from publically available from the Vatican itself:

...there are sections of the Vatican Secrets that are not open to the public and it is only the Vatican that has access to these sections

Source: www.vatican.com

Publication of the indexes, in part or as a whole, is forbidden.

Source: ARCHIVUM SECRETUM VATICANUM - RULES FOR SCHOLARS

How is this in any manner a publically open archive?

-MM

It isn't its the private papers of the Pope and they don't release material for 75 years - as noted before

a reply to: MerkabaMeditation

My conclusion is as follows; parts of the Secret Archive's contents are hidden by preventing scholar access

Yes that is part of their stated privacy policy

and other parts of the Archive are obfuscated by not making the indexes publically available or even allowing scholars the means to publish the indexes in parts or whole.

Other than using the indexes within the VSA - you seem to be blaming non library sorted material from the original makers for the lack of organization, so are your private papers organized by Dewey Decimal or LC? Probably not.

You appear to believe that the VSA is hiding lost works, but considering the French had the entire archive for 8 years and they didn't notice anything, this seems unlikely. If the Vatican, as you believe, is hiding stuff it wouldn't be in the VSA. Think about it, why would you put super secret stuff into a place where people can get to it? If it was very 'dangerous' I'd destroy it not keep it.

Makes no sense.

So what do you think the Vatican is bogarting and why?

originally posted by: Hanslune
It isn't its the private papers of the Pope

You are wrong; and to prove it here is what the official Vatican web site www.vatican.com says on the matter:

The Vatican archives obtained the name Vatican secrets archives to show that the archives are private and that they are personal property to the Pope and do not belong to any other department of the Roman Curia.

-MM

originally posted by: Hanslune
a reply to: MerkabaMeditation

My conclusion is as follows; parts of the Secret Archive's contents are hidden by preventing scholar access

Yes that is part of their stated privacy policy

Secrecy and privacy are different things, I believe this is about secrecy and not privacy. Why would an archive need to be "private" if it is supposedly publically available? It is an contradiction.

originally posted by: Hanslune
a reply to: MerkabaMeditation

and other parts of the Archive are obfuscated by not making the indexes publically available or even allowing scholars the means to publish the indexes in parts or whole.

Other than using the indexes within the VSA - you seem to be blaming non library sorted material from the original makers for the lack of organization, so are your private papers organized by Dewey Decimal or LC? Probably not.

I'm criticising actively forbidding scholars from making copies of the indexes and forbidding publication of indexes.

originally posted by: Hanslune
a reply to: MerkabaMeditation
You appear to believe that the VSA is hiding lost works, but considering the French had the entire archive for 8 years and they didn't notice anything, this seems unlikely. If the Vatican, as you believe, is hiding stuff it wouldn't be in the VSA. Think about it, why would you put super secret stuff into a place where people can get to it? If it was very 'dangerous' I'd destroy it not keep it.

Makes no sense.

So what do you think the Vatican is bogarting and why?

Who knows what is in there as the indexes are not public we can not know unless the work is referenced in some other source.

-MM

originally posted by: MerkabaMeditation

originally posted by: Hanslune
It isn't its the private papers of the Pope

You are wrong; and to prove it here is what the official Vatican web site www.vatican.com says on the matter:

The Vatican archives obtained the name Vatican secrets archives to show that the archives are private and that they are personal property to the Pope and do not belong to any other department of the Roman Curia.

Here's what Hans said:

originally posted by: MerkabaMeditation
Here are some proof for you that the Vatican Secret Archives are far from publically available from the Vatican itself:

...there are sections of the Vatican Secrets that are not open to the public and it is only the Vatican that has access to these sections

Source: www.vatican.com

Publication of the indexes, in part or as a whole, is forbidden.

Source: ARCHIVUM SECRETUM VATICANUM - RULES FOR SCHOLARS

How is this in any manner a publically open archive?

-MM

Hans - "It isn't its the private papers of the Pope and they don't release material for 75 years - as noted before"

In what way does that differ from your Vatican quote?

Will you be standing behind the Pope, demanding he write faster so that you can have access to his private writings immediately?

"C'mon, Pope, hurry up! I have to publish that letter to your brother in tomorrow's blog!"

Harte

originally posted by: MerkabaMeditation

Secrecy and privacy are different things, I believe this is about secrecy and not privacy. Why would an archive need to be "private" if it is supposedly publically available? It is an contradiction.

Because its a private archive the Popes decided to make publicly available for some materials, as stated several times. The Pope can pretty much do anything he wants with his own materials, he isn't an publicly elected official nor a corporation, why do you feel he has to provide everything to you?

I'm criticising actively forbidding scholars from making copies of the indexes and forbidding publication of indexes.

Okay so what does that do for us? I thought you were trying to make a case that the VSA saying they didn't have lost work x really meant they had it.

Who knows what is in there as the indexes are not public we can not know unless the work is referenced in some other source.-MM

Hmmm, why not ask one of the many scholars who see and work with the indexes if there anything interesting in them.

originally posted by: Harte
Here's what Hans said:

Hans - "It isn't its the private papers of the Pope and they don't release material for 75 years - as noted before"

In what way does that differ from your Vatican quote?

It is not me that says the Secret Archive is the property of the pope, it is the official Vatican web site www.vatican.com :

The Vatican archives obtained the name Vatican secrets archives to show that the archives are private and that they are personal property to the Pope and do not belong to any other department of the Roman Curia.

Not sure why you are fighting me on this, but I suspect that when Hans says "It isn't its the private papers of the Pope", then he is actually saying that the Vatican Archive is private (thus agreeing with me). His sentence has double negatives in it that confuses me as to its true meaning. It may be that the sentence is semantically correct English though - I would not know for sure as English is not my native language. I'm pretty sure that the sentence could have been formulated more clearly though. I've read it all along as though Hans claims that the Secret Archives is not the private property of the pope; which is ofcourse false.

However, if Hans means that the Secret Archives is not private, then the link to the official Vatican web site above and the above quote from the Vatican official web site should normally settle an argument like this once and for all. Thus, I'm leaving this discussion now (but not the thread); if you cannot accept statements from the Vatican themself about the Secret Archives being private (which is the opposite of public mind you) and the personal property of the pope then it is not much more I can do to convince you of this documented and well-sourced fact.

-MM

Vatican archives are open to the "public," with the exception that Hans pointed out.

Simple as that.

You can't pretend there's something "mysterious" there, unless you mean something written by the a Pope in the last 70 years or so.

That would pretty much preclude every conspiracy theorist's claims concerning the archive. Obviously, it precludes any materials from the Library of Alexander (the topic of the thread, after all.)

Are you just mad that you can't read correspondences from recent popes?

Guess what. You can't read my private correspondences either. Wonder what "mysterious artifacts" I've included in them?

Harte

a reply to: MerkabaMeditation

You are way over thinking this it isn't really as complicated as you seem to be making it.

There is a room where they keep all the papers of the popes.

You can read those papers they have released and are older than 75 years

You cannot read those younger than that.

That's about it
Now if you want to know WHY they won't allow you to read the current papers of the Pope or WHY they won't allow an index to be published you might want to ask them. lol