So was it Palestine or Isreal? Anyone know?

I don't know, buy I have a collection of stamps in a book dated 1931....There is no Isreal, but there is a Palastine,
"A Government under British Mandate. Capital-Jerusalem. First Stamp Issued--1918."

Gen 17:9 God said further to Abraham, "Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.

And here's the issue...

Abraham had two sons from two different women, technically BOTH are then his descendants. The Christians and Jews take the covenant to refer to Isaac, wheras the Muslims take it to refer to Ishmael. Short of God/Allah coming down and saying, "Okay, okay, I'll clarify, it goes to you!" the area will always be in religious contention until the end of time or religion.

If they could come to an agreement to share it in peace, as many do already in the major cities, then the problem could be resolved. However, the PLO (under Arafat at least) simply wants a Palestinian State only IF it means no more Isreal, and folks, that ain't gonna happen. His successor seems to be of the same mind, but has a lot more credibility as he originally shied away from the terrorist sponsoring Arafat is so known (and then apparently forgotten) for....

Ya know, if ancient history is the determining factor over who gets rights to a certain peice of land, we are all in deep crap!!! We'd go nuts just to find out just who God gave each person land too. And, well, in the meantime, American would morally have to go to whom???

Heck, we'd probably find out that most of Europe, the English, The Danes, ect....including Americans, really belong in the middle east. Since, well....that is where the Isrealites are said to have gone...When they were dispersed. The later the JEWS of JUDAH....Isreal had broken into two segments because of of disagreement of who should be king....were dispersed. I think the original Isrealites aren't the "jews' that were relocated to the area after WW2 even.

In this situation the truth is in the original source material, the Torah.
www.jewfaq.org...
Isaac was the subject of the tenth and most difficult test of Abraham's faith: G-d commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac as a burnt offering. (Gen 22). This test is known in Jewish tradition as the Akeidah (the Binding, a reference to the fact that Isaac was bound on the altar).

This is a typical example of Islam twisting history and religion to support their beliefs.

Originally posted by Gazrok
Abraham had two sons from two different women, technically BOTH are then his descendants. The Christians and Jews take the covenant to refer to Isaac, wheras the Muslims take it to refer to Ishmael. Short of God/Allah coming down and saying, "Okay, okay, I'll clarify, it goes to you!" the area will always be in religious contention until the end of time or religion.

Originally posted by dawnstar
I don't know, buy I have a collection of stamps in a book dated 1931....There is no Isreal, but there is a Palastine,
"A Government under British Mandate. Capital-Jerusalem. First Stamp Issued--1918."

Palestine is also mentioned in some of the campaigns of Napoleon from the late 1700's

napoleonseries.org
The beginning of the Palestine campaign was well recorded by De Bourienne, Napoleon's private secretary. [7] De Bourienne had been at Brienne with Bonaparte, where De Bourienne's aristocratic family background elevated him well above the petty aristocratic Bonaparte clan. He repressed his jealousy of his master and served him well until Napoleon, as consul, cashiered him for dipping too deeply into the cash box of the First Consul. [8] However, during the Egyptian-Palestine adventure, he served Napoleon devotedly.

It is mentioned as the Turkish province of Palestine-Syria in that article.
In last few hundred years at least, it seems to have been known as Palestine, not Israel.

Ya know, if ancient history is the determining factor over who gets rights to a certain peice of land, we are all in deep crap!!! We'd go nuts just to find out just who God gave each person land too. And, well, in the meantime, American would morally have to go to whom???

Ain't that the truth...

But, in THIS case, the two factions involve are BOTH trying to use scripture as the basis for their argument. Yes NC, one could say one faction is twisting the events to support their position, but actually both are simply two different takes on it. A Christian would view the Bible's account as more accurate, whereas the Muslim would cite the Quaran... Not saying either one is right or wrong, they both need to figure out a way to peacefully co-exist there, or else they'll continue to try and wipe each other out.

This is one of the reasons I support Israel more than the Palestinians in this conflict. The Israelis have come to the table several times to talk and offer the Palestinians far more than generous concessions. They get repaid by acts of terrorism deliberately targeting civilians. Now, Israel is now angel in this either, but one could certainly make the case for the moral highground here...

Originally posted by Netchicken
www.christiananswers.net...
The land promised to the Jews is huge, and reaches the Euphrates. The sub section that includes most of what we see as Israel today was called in latter times "Palestine".

Firstly, today's jews are pharisaic, which means that they are remnants of the pharisees, numbering only about 5000 individuals in ancient Palestine. These guys fled from Jerusalem (Rabbi ben Zakkai's treachery) and convertted people in Greece and Russia. The bulk of jews remained in Palestine and was later converted to islam. So jews today are not really descendants of the ancient jews to whom the land was promised by Yahweh, their god, but mostly greek and russian in descent. The 'original jews' are probably today's palestinians.

Secondly, an error many christians make today, the 'promised land' was not promised to them by the Allmighty, but by Yahweh, which is an human-like tribal god in a polytheistic pantheon, along with Baal, Milcom, Serpents, Spiders, and many others. Only later they somehow (not really) accepted a universal, perfect god, and changed the claim from 'Yahweh promised us the land' to 'God Allmighty promised us the land', a horrible error.

details of this can be found in : www.abovetopsecret.com...

This terrible theological mistake is also at the origin of what is called 'zionism' :
www.theunjustmedia.com...


[edit on 3-12-2004 by Mokuhadzushi]

Ya can't sit on the fence over this and take some humanistic "everyone is right" type stance. The Koran is flat out WRONG. The torah, is the original script, written 1000's of years earlier about their religion and God. There it is correct.

Its akin to trying to say that the Mormans and the Christians are both correct and giving the Book of Morman the same standing as the bible.

It just doesn't wash, In this issue the Koran is based on a lie.

Originally posted by Gazrok
But, in THIS case, the two factions involve are BOTH trying to use scripture as the basis for their argument. Yes NC, one could say one faction is twisting the events to support their position, but actually both are simply two different takes on it. A Christian would view the Bible's account as more accurate, whereas the Muslim would cite the Quaran... Not saying either one is right or wrong, they both need to figure out a way to peacefully co-exist there, or else they'll continue to try and wipe each other out.

Originally posted by Netchicken
Ya can't sit on the fence over this and take some humanistic "everyone is right" type stance. The Koran is flat out WRONG. The torah, is the original script, written 1000's of years earlier about their religion and God. There it is correct.

Its akin to trying to say that the Mormans and the Christians are both correct and giving the Book of Morman the same standing as the bible.

It just doesn't wash, In this issue the Koran is based on a lie.

Didnt you read what i wrote ? Yahweh is a tribal god, and therefore an idol. If someone's wrong, it's the jews by thinking that what an idol promised to them were god's words. Allah as well as God are universal, Yahweh is not.



[edit on 3-12-2004 by Mokuhadzushi]

I read what you wrote I just didn't take any notice of it. Its illogical nonsence and I thought that silence was the best answer I could give.

Indeed Yhwh is a tribal God, but he is also the supreme God. How can he be called an idol, when he hates people who practice idolatry, when an idol is nor more than the wood or stone it is made from yet yhwh is real? There is no logic in this statement, nor in the rest of your post.

However if you want to take me up on it then put it to a utu, or a new thread as it is off topic here.

Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi

Didnt you read what i wrote ? Yahweh is a tribal god, and therefore an idol. If someone's wrong, it's the jews by thinking that what an idol promised to them were god's words. Allah as well as God are universal, Yahweh is not.



[edit on 3-12-2004 by Mokuhadzushi]

[edit on 3-12-2004 by Netchicken]

My claims that Yahweh is an idol, and not God Universal are historical truth. Jewish religious Myths claim otherwise, and that's no surprise, as that is how they justify their claim on the middle east. One of the links i posted above is towards a ATS thread already discussing that topic. Use that if you will.

Another topic is, and this topic fits well into this discussion, that today's jews are mostly greek and russian pharisaic convertites, and not sadducees. That topic is also partly covered in the above link.

AS I stated before, Moku, your claims are not historical truth, and in this case, Netchicken's claims are the factual historical truth.

I'll be back to this thread as soon as I dig up some spiral-bound notebooks with notes on this topic. I don't want to get a date, figure or quote wrong.

as posted by Moku
This terrible theological mistake is also at the origin of what is called 'zionism'

The link you gave Moku, does not cover the real, truthful, and ancient meaning nor origins of what "Zionism" is. Sometimes I wonder at why people steadily stop at Theodore Herzl and claim that they know what Zionism is and what it is all about. Got a source for ya, and guess what, its not something you'll easily find on the internet, if at all. It's "Ancient Zionism: The Biblical Origins of the National Idea," written by Avi Erlich.

You want answers to what Zionism is and its origins....start there...free-thinkers do.



seekerof

[edit on 4-12-2004 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Justanotherperson
Aren't you playing with semantics. Palestine refers to a region and would not be like modern states. Regardless the colonialization of Palestine led to the "diaspora" of several million Palestinians.
[edit on 3-12-2004 by Justanotherperson]

Whew! So much stuff in this thread!
I think one of the first things to look at is whether or not the Jews have any claim to that area.

The first thing to realize is that the Jews have never NOT beenm in that area, maintaining ties to their homeland with both a distinct language and civilization. While the Jews were thrown to the four winds, some remained, maintaining those roots. This is one heck of a task (and in my opinion, accomplished only through Divine protection) considering powerhouses like the Romans tried to erase them memory. After having to crush the last revolt of those pesky little Jews, the Romans changed the name of Judea to Palestina in an attempt to disconnect the Jews' identity from the land of Israel.

AS far as the Arabs go, their has never been any particular identity as "Palestinian" Arabs. The area was just considered part of greater Syria, and at the turn of the last century, an Arab would have been offended at being called a "Palestinian" as that was a general term for the Jews. Only later in the last century, when it was seen as political strategy, did any Arabs take on the identity as a "Palestinian".

Ok, I've nothing more to ass at this time as I can't locate the spiral-bounds. So much crap is in disarray after the divorce, and much was in that state after the marriage, four years ago, when my belongings was moved around to make room for more stuff! I'll find them tomorrow, and hopefully a boar load of books that have been missing for quite some time, but this is as far as I dare go from memory. My brain is getting old, and a lot of memory cells have popped like soap bubbles!