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Christmas

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posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 02:03 PM
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Ever wonder why there is a "fête" or a special day almost every single month? SPENDING

January: new years day
Feb: Valentines day
March or April: Easter
May: Mother's day
June: father's day
July: Independance day/ Canada day
September: Labor day
October: Halloween
November: Thanksgiving
Dec: Christmas

Sur I am missing a whole lot of other....spending gifts and all that crap




posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 05:00 AM
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It may come as a surprise to some, but it is a fact nowhere in the Bible are Christians commanded or even advised to celebrate the birth of Christ.

Furthermore, there is not a single holy day (holiday) that a Christian must observe. It is up to his or her own discretion/guidance of the holy Spirit of Yahweh as to whether he or she will consider a day sacred. Check out Romans chapter 14:

14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.
(Authorized King James Version Bible).

Yahshua HaMashiach (Hebrew for Jesus Christ) was most likely born on Tishri 15 (Sep-Oct of the Gregorian Calendar) at the beginning of the Hebrew Feast of Tabernacles. December 25th is the birthday of Mithra, the Persian sun god, and has nothing to do with Christ. Satan Claws is the amalgamation of Odin, Thor, and the Catholic Saint Nicholas. A few examples of this are listed below:

1 - The North Pole - Scandinavia, land of the Vikings, is obviously nearby.

2. Santa's Elves - According to Norse mythology, black elves known as the Zwerge forged Thor's hammer, Mjolnir.

3. Reindeer - Odin, all-father of the Norse gods, possessed an eight-legeed horse named Sliepnir.


Those are just a few of the many pagan origins of the modern Christmas mythology.



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 05:39 AM
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Furthermore, there is not a single holy day (holiday) that a Christian must observe. It is up to his or her own discretion/guidance of the holy Spirit of Yahweh as to whether he or she will consider a day sacred. Check out Romans chapter 14:


Interesting. I have never read that verse before. In regards to this specifically, if this was the case, why did Christ when he was on earth observe the Jewish sabbath and the passovers etc. If Christ wanted to make a point of showing the world that any day was appropriate to observe, why did he not do so?

Apart from that, I liked your points regarding 'Satan Claws'. The more I think about christmas, the more phony it sounds. Most parents teach their kids that Santa is real.. a deception that is ok as it is harmless fun. Isnt a lie a lie?



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 07:44 AM
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Nobody knows when Christ was actually born. There are many dates that are given that have equal claim.
What we do know is that he wasn't born on December 25th. There are dates in the Bible that contradict this.

Also, remember the shepherds? They were watching their sheep up on the hills at night? Well, this is highly unlikely. It's winter in Israel in December too, and the sheep would have been bought down from the hills at night to protect them from the cold, just as farmers have been doing for millenia.

The most likely explanation that we have for 25th of December is that it was a date taken from another religion and adopted by Christianity. There was a religion called Mithraism that was around at the same time - it has donated a lot of symbols and dates to Christianity.
Mithras' main feast day was the 25th December. He was believed to have been born on this day as this was the winter solstice when the Sun was "reborn".

It should also be noticed that it wasn't for many years after the deah of Christ that this date was adopted. Early Christians didn't celebrate Christmas at all as they were awaiting the 2nd Coming. When Christians first started celebrating they had different dates - December 12th being one of them.

Still, none of this really matters does it? If we don't know the exact date, who cares? What does matter is that we celebrate Jesus' birthday and remember - whatever the date.



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 07:48 AM
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Originally posted by shmick25



Furthermore, there is not a single holy day (holiday) that a Christian must observe. It is up to his or her own discretion/guidance of the holy Spirit of Yahweh as to whether he or she will consider a day sacred. Check out Romans chapter 14:


Interesting. I have never read that verse before. In regards to this specifically, if this was the case, why did Christ when he was on earth observe the Jewish sabbath and the passovers etc. If Christ wanted to make a point of showing the world that any day was appropriate to observe, why did he not do so?



He did. Christ said that "the Sabbath was made for Man. Not Man for the Sabbath".
You should also remember that he worked on the Sabbath when this was supposed to be expressly forbidden - in fact there are instances in the Bible where people were executed fo doing this and this was probably one of the charges made at Jesus' trial when he was accused of not obeying Jewish law.



[edit on 6-12-2004 by Leveller]



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 09:44 AM
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Yeah, I knew when I saw the topic what was going to happen here. Anyway, for those who actually care for the answer in a modern perspective, I'll help the best I can...


Originally posted by shmick25
So we are about to experience a very merry Christmas again but I have a few questions.

1. No one knows when Christ was born. Why do we celebrate his birth at this time of year.


Better to celebrate it than to not celebrate it. Christ is the most important thing to happen to CHRISTians. It so happens other holidays occured during this time so it was consolidated with others. Who actually consolidated? I always thought it was the town governors who wanted the people to celebrate their holidays at the same time.


Originally posted by shmick25
2. If we do celebrate Christmas as the Birth of Christ, why do we incorporate the Christmas tree and father nick (Santa) (pagan figures) as well?


Saint Nicholas did give gifts, was a real person and wore red. Some internet searches can help here. As far as the other add-ons like the north pole, reindeer, elves and such, don't celebrate them but respect other people's rights to do so.


Originally posted by shmick25
From what I know, the decoration of the Christmas tree stems back from druid tradition. How the hell did it end up as Christmas tradition?


Germany. Again, internet searches would be helpful. Legend says Martin Luther, the father of the protestant reformation, started the tradition of decorating a winter tree. Who knows? Pitch the tree, don't care, it's not what Christmas is about anyway. It's nice to look at though and can be decorated Christian.


Originally posted by shmick25
3. Why share gifts? Where did this come from?


Saint Nicholas did so to remind people of Christ's birth, God's gift to man and ultimately what Christ would be giving back to mankind.


Originally posted by shmick25
Is it because of the story of Christ and the 3 wise men? How can that relate to giving presents to each other?


By spreading the word of Jesus, selflessness, and charity.


Originally posted by shmick25
Possibly we should be giving offerings to churches instead?


Give to the church too, sure.


Originally posted by shmick25
4. Another theory is that Santa clause is actually an Satan clause!


This is a bastardization that happens with the English language unfortunately. Santa Claus I believe was the Dutch translation. Santa in related languages means Saint. Claus a translation of Nicholas. Satan is from different roots - Hebrew or Greek if I'm not mistaken.


Originally posted by shmick25
Sounds funny but what if it is true?


Knowledge helps reveal truth.


Originally posted by shmick25
What if Christmas is divided into 2. Some people worship Christ!


Put me in this catagory please.


Originally posted by shmick25
and the others worship unwittingly each year Satan! Blows ya mind.


Some do by thinking it's about greed, money, selfishness, frustration, anger, dissention amoung family and friends, etc...


Originally posted by shmick25
Tell me if Christmas is some big religious conspiracy!!


No, no secrets here. All documented historical.



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 03:03 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
This is a bastardization that happens with the English language unfortunately. Santa Claus I believe was the Dutch translation. Santa in related languages means Saint. Claus a translation of Nicholas. Satan is from different roots - Hebrew or Greek if I'm not mistaken.


I don't think anyone is saying that Santa Claus is actually derived from Satan etmyologically. I just find it interesting that Santa is an anagram for Satan in English. Satan wants to be God and strives to be worshipped as such whenever and wherever he can.



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 03:44 PM
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Hi Leveller



He did. Christ said that "the Sabbath was made for Man. Not Man for the Sabbath". You should also remember that he worked on the Sabbath when this was supposed to be expressly forbidden - in fact there are instances in the Bible where people were executed fo doing this and this was probably one of the charges made at Jesus' trial when he was accused of not obeying Jewish law.


The very fact that he said 'sabbath was made for man', wouldnt that indicate that he is placing emphases on 'sabbath'? You would be hard pressed to argue a changed definition for the 'sabbath'. Even the diciples did not change their day of worship which gives greater support to the fact that the 'holy' day never did change.

Regarding the working on the sabbath, I think the point that Christ was trying to make is that the Jews of the day were getting weighed down by the law. i.e. they had to concentrate so hard on the sabbath not to break a 'law' that it was impossible to keep it as God intended. Stress free and a day of worship'.

I know that most christians do believe the day of worship does matter be it sun or saturday. I havnt heard of too many christians observing other days.

Interesting discussion though. Thanks



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 04:12 PM
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Hi Saint,



Better to celebrate it than to not celebrate it.


I agree. I think that part of the point of this conversation is that ‘why are we celebrating it at THIS time of year’. (Thanks to some informative posts I now know).



Saint Nicholas did give gifts, was a real person and wore red. Some internet searches can help here.


So, why isn’t Christmas marketed as a time to give to the poor? Obviously because of big business. This however is the point that is being made.

There is another interesting thread on Santa in this forum. Somehow saint nic gained supernatural powers. Interesting…



Pitch the tree, don't care, it's not what Christmas is about anyway. It's nice to look at though and can be decorated Christian.


That is what the catholic church does best. Christianizes pagan beliefs. It’s a pity it has been incorporated into mainstream Christian thinking, but I put it down to general ignorance mostly and an attitude of ‘well who cares anyway!!’



This is a bastardization that happens with the English language unfortunately. Santa Claus I believe was the Dutch translation. Santa in related languages means Saint. Claus a translation of Nicholas. Satan is from different roots - Hebrew or Greek if I'm not mistaken.


I agree with Ischyros follow up.

The point of my thread was to make it clear that Christmas is a man made occasion designed to bring in money for big business. The way that it is marketed does not stay true to any Christian theme. This to children can be misleading so their understanding of the significant of Christmas is greatly reduced. The primary theme is Santa, the secondary is Christ. Sounds familiar with the worship of saints in some churches.

However, saying that, many people do still respect the day as a day of peace. I have even heard of stories in war where fighting stoped over Christmas. It is also a family day where people unite with loved ones.

In short I lay claim to my original statement that has been echoed in these halls. Both Christ and Satan demand worship so it isn’t a surprise that the Christian message of Christmas has been corrupted with pagan influences to confuse the masses from hearing the Christian message.



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 04:14 PM
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shmick25

I appreciate your interest in the Sabbath. Leveller did much to answer your question regarding the Sabbath, so I will only say a llttle more. I believe that Yahweh God wants us to dedicate one day of the week to rest and worship, but I don't think he is concerned at this time as to the exact day of the week. It would be wonderul if this day could be the same for all sincere followers of the One True God, but the increasingly secular, pagan, and Satanic societies in which we live conspire to prevent this. While Sunday may in fact be the day of the Sun venerated by pagans, I don't think that means it would be a bad day to worship God on. Yahweh is the Creator and Master of all things after all.



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 05:58 PM
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Originally posted by Ischyros
but I don't think he is concerned at this time as to the exact day of the week


So was there a time that he was concerned? Will there be another time that he will be concerned?

Some people believe that the day of worship is the sign that you do not have the mark of the beast in the end days. (Most probably not really applicable to the christmas thread). i.e. a day of the week will be made mandatory and if you dont worship on that day.. well, you know the rest.



posted on Dec, 7 2004 @ 04:39 PM
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Someone mentioned Easter, you were quite correct that is should be held at the passover, instead it has been moved to celebrate the festival of Eostre, the celtic godess of fertility, it was moved at the Synod of Whitby in 644AD, by the Catholics.



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 09:41 AM
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Originally posted by Ischyros
I don't think anyone is saying that Santa Claus is actually derived from Satan etmyologically. I just find it interesting that Santa is an anagram for Satan in English. Satan wants to be God and strives to be worshipped as such whenever and wherever he can.


I hadn't considered that, nor would put it past him. Making things look out of place and reminding people of him is a specialty. Thanks.



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 09:44 AM
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Christmas is too mainstream, it was beter underground when people hardly knew about it...SELLOUTS!



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 09:56 AM
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Originally posted by shmick25
I agree. I think that part of the point of this conversation is that ‘why are we celebrating it at THIS time of year’. (Thanks to some informative posts I now know).


Consolidation I thought. But would have no objections celebrating it at another date.


Originally posted by shmick25
So, why isn’t Christmas marketed as a time to give to the poor?


I don't know. You're right. Everyone should give to everyone they can and spread the word. I just got more involved in Christmas charities this year though it should've been sooner.


Originally posted by shmick25
Obviously because of big business. This however is the point that is being made.


I'm with you on it.


Originally posted by shmick25
There is another interesting thread on Santa in this forum. Somehow saint nic gained supernatural powers. Interesting...


I think a lot of it was trying to pass on an interested story from parents to children. To create magic through fiction. I find enough magic in reality to last a lifetime though.


Originally posted by shmick25
That is what the catholic church does best. Christianizes pagan beliefs. It’s a pity it has been incorporated into mainstream Christian thinking, but I put it down to general ignorance mostly and an attitude of ‘well who cares anyway!!’


I've read this was the case. I'm still unclear as to whether this is in fact the right thing to do. Seems to create confusion when people are trying to discover Christianity sometimes, yet was very effective reaching out to those of pagan beliefs. If anyone here has some viewpoints on it, I'm very interested in hearing them.


Originally posted by shmick25
The primary theme is Santa, the secondary is Christ. Sounds familiar with the worship of saints in some churches.



Nice observation! I hadn't seen it this way before, not having a Catholic history.


Originally posted by shmick25
In short I lay claim to my original statement that has been echoed in these halls. Both Christ and Satan demand worship so it isn’t a surprise that the Christian message of Christmas has been corrupted with pagan influences to confuse the masses from hearing the Christian message.


Hear here! Thanks for the insight Shmick25.



posted on Dec, 27 2004 @ 06:11 PM
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Don't you find ironic, that Nicholas, Nick also means horny comical devil, which can be linked directly with Satan. This Old Devil or Old Nick is quite popular character in Estonian folk tales for example.
So, basically we can directly derive Satan from Santa this way
Santa Claus=>Saint Nicholas=>Nick=>Devil=>Satan
More proof how ambivalent English language could be




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