Does the MH17 debates remind you of the Zimmerman debates here on ATS?

I tried to keep a open mind during the trial, but yet looked for a open honest discussion about it. Some attempted to shout me down.

I'm seeing the same crap again. People who are pro-west or pro-russian all voicing their opinion. and trying to shout down opposing opinion, stating that their opinion is fact because that's the way they feel about it.

Yes, I have my opinions, based upon my knowledge of weapons system and history...but they are still my own opinions and nothing more.

If proving me wrong makes you feel better...good luck in your life.

If I am proved right in my beliefs though, there is no really impact in the world from a personal standpoint.

This thing is bigger than you and me. Just something to think about.

It's good to keep an open mind. I do think that the Ukrainian gov shot the plane down thinking it was Putin(or a false flag to blame on Russia), though. I respect others opinions on the matter. I also reserve the thought that if the rebels did shoot it down, then it was a terrible mistake that they didn't mean. Either way, almost 300 lives have been erased for nothing but being at the wrong place, wrong time. Terrible tragedy. I hope the families get their loved ones and start the healing process. Such a sad world that we live in. Why can't people of the world respect each other and value life. After all, life is the greatest thing we've been given.

a reply to: Fylgje

I'll be truthful, I think it was a terrible mistake on the rebels. But once that happened, both sides are trying to use it to spin in their advantage. The West is doing it as are the Russians.

And I must admit, some of the stuff coming out of the Separatist side is down right weird.

Does the MH17 debates remind you of the Zimmerman debates here on ATS?

No. I'm not seeing it. Not at that level.

I have no doubt that the Boston Bomber trial discussion will be just like the Zimmerman trial here. With Zimmerman, people were throwing around 'raaaaaacist' and other derogatory names all over the place. I'm sure with the Boston Bombing trial people will be calling others 'anti-muslim' and 'anti-American' .. depending on what side of the discussion they are on. I think that discussion will get NASTY.

What I see are many people responding as they were programmed to do, in regards to the illegal immigration situation. Think about this, it was not but a few weeks ago that we found out there was an experiment done via social media (facebook) to see how people would react when something in their environment is changed. They have been doing this to us for decades on various levels. They set the controls, we give a response. It's very Pavlovian in nature.

Do I think the illegal immigration crisis was orchestrated? Most certainly. And now we have thousands of angry people, some, in a complete rage. I read the other day on a different site, where someone suggested they sit up in trees like snipers and pick these people off when they are dropped off in the cities. They are simply reacting the way tptb (yes powers that be) want them to react. They are definitely responding in a way that could lead to a break down in society.... and what better way to kick things off then use illegal immigrants to do so.

Look, I don't hate the illegal immigrants. They are simply doing what they were told to do.... come to America, Obama will get you in. My anger is directed at the people who created this crisis. My worries are with the fact that criminals are crossing over and nothing is being done about this. Raging on the illegals are not going to make the situation better, nor will threatening their lives. We cannot succumb to evil, to right the wrongs. We must not give the response that tptb are looking for.

I believe we have to think and act carefully. We cannot let tv or social media cloud our minds. Our country facing turbulent times and we cannot give them (tptb) the conditioned response.

a reply to: TDawgRex

Let's look at the facts, not supposition;

1. The Russians, Rebels and the Ukraine all have BUK-22's or some other SAM system capable of hitting a target at up to 78,000 feet.
2. The Russian supported the rebels in annexing Crimea and western Ukraine.
3. The US promoted and assisted in the overthrow of the Ukraine government.
4. The US supplied weapons and logistical support for the overthrow of the Ukraine.
5. The Russians are dropping the petro-dollar for trade with China and have engaged a huge deal.
6. Russia is a BRICS member which may be the new model to displace FED/BIS/IMF control.
7. Russia has been displaced from the G8.
8. Israel invaded Gaza immediately after the crash.
9. Ashkenazi jews come from the same basic area (just an aside but still a fact).
10. The US and Russia both have "pokers" in this "fire."

Who has motive for a false flag operation or misdirection;

1. The US, because of the annexation of Crimea by Russia, support for sanctions, the Russian deals with China and BRICS or possibly a distraction to present situations like the illegal immigrant problem or the upcoming elections.
2. Russia, because of sanctions, the attempted crippling of their banks by the US, financial and political interference and of course the annexing of Crimea.
3. The Israelis as a distraction to the the events in the invasion of Gaza.

Propaganda, Rumours and Diversion;

1. The rebels did it using a BUK-22
2. The US did it using MH370 and already dead bodies
3. The Ukraine did it using a BUK-22
4. The Ukraine did it using an SU-25 warplane
5. The Russians did it by pulling the rebels strings
6. The Israelis did it either through ties with Ashkenazi jews through Russia, the US or the Ukraine
7. Some terrorist event or altercation happened on the plane

As a diversion, this event can be spun to make the US, Russia or Israel look bad, it just depends on what additional "real" evidence comes out. So really, when it comes down to it, we need more real evidence but from a theoretical standpoint, we have to look at who stands to gain in this situation.

1. The US maintains petro-dollar status and BIS/IMF/FED dominance, at least for a little while on the global stage, if Russia is downgraded due to involvement, real or spun, in the attack of MH17
2. The US provides a distraction from the present problems with the US government, illegal immigration and the election cycle, diverting attention away from illegal contracts, blatant corruption and financial Armageddon
3. The US manages unified citizen solidified support for an action against Russia, much like the first days of 9/11 which could end in the highly profitable 3rd world war
4. Russia with the help of China further expands it's trading network and BRICS, sans US petro-dollars, on the global stage if the US has been shown to be the instigator or facilitator, real or imagined, of the MH17 attack
5. Israel pits the US and Russia against each other so no one is watching what the Israelis are doing, which of course will probably result in that highly profitable 3rd world war, not realizing Israel would be one of the first to go

Who has motive, opportunity and ability to pull this off;

1. The United States (direct connection through the Ukraine)
2. Russia (direct connection through the pro-Russian rebels)
3. Israel (connections through both Russia and the US through the IMF/BIS and the Ashkenazi jews)

The most important thing at this stage is to recognize propaganda. Anything that isn't definitive and has evidence to back it up is definitely propaganda. Even evidence of wrongdoing can be twisted and spun to look like the real thing. I think we have to be emotionally detached and mentally vigilant in order to separate the fly sh**t from the pepper. But even then it is unlikely all the truth or proof will ever come out.

Anyone who has anything else to add, reasons for spinning, countries or groups that would gain from this disaster, etc, please feel free.

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: Tatanka

Very nice post

Television = Weapon of mass deception.

I like your siggy too!

a reply to: bobs_uruncle

You boil it down to some very logical arguments. The thing is, I don't see people buying it. They are wrapped emotionally on their side and aren't backing down.

Propaganda at its finest.

a reply to: TDawgRex

I am a European. To me, it is important to see our own faults ... or own failures. In my eyes, people who think we always do the right think, do not love their own country. Loving your country, is to see it's faults and wanting to improve these faults.

Hearing people state western media as facts, when we all know for certain that they are really nothing but propaganda machines born from the Marshall plan. Makes me feel sick ... first of all, the WWII is long over, and Russia is no longer the Soviet Union. Accepting some McCarthy paranoia, or anti-russian sentiment as truth without question, is in my view, just that ... paranoia.

In my view, it's "we" here that are at fault. We can blame it on Russia, or Ukraine and call some break out republic for terrorists. But it does not remove the fact, that we allowed a passenger airliner to enter a war zone. And not just any war zone, a war zone we here in Europe have been shouting about for months ... doing everything in our power, to make it escalate into war.

I love my country, I love Europe ... I don't want to see it ruined by war. And I don't want to see my country, cause the harms of war to anyone ... therefore, I oppose the voices, who kling to war as if it's a goal of life.

originally posted by: TDawgRex
a reply to: bobs_uruncle

You boil it down to some very logical arguments. The thing is, I don't see people buying it. They are wrapped emotionally on their side and aren't backing down.

Propaganda at its finest.

Consider this: People who want to argue, or want to regurgitate propaganda in some morose tit for tat....why do you listen to them? Or fuel their argument with attention.

If someone wants to discuss only talking points from news sources, they likely aren't worthy of attention. Talking points are, by design, engineered to narrow arguments down and tend to employ zero sum thought (either/or). It is a fallacy, and thus will never find reason palatable (reason cannot be constrained by zero sum thinking).

Personally, I am more interested in talking with people who think, not people who can just repeat and regurgitate.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

thanks ya big 'ol furry lug. I needed that, and I think we do from time to time. I like to think that I am a rational thinker most times, but truth be told, I do get emotional from time to time.

This is one of those times, where people who are traveling home or on vacation were killed because of some idiot who "wanted a kill". (That's my theory anyways)

originally posted by: TDawgRex
a reply to: bobs_uruncle

You boil it down to some very logical arguments. The thing is, I don't see people buying it. They are wrapped emotionally on their side and aren't backing down.

Propaganda at its finest.

Thanks ;-) and you're right, that is the problem, those damned emotions get it the way. Part of it is denial, no one wants to be wrong or shown their world view is flawed, it could be related to pride. I have a similar situation with the Helderberg from 1987, I get government shills and Broederbond shills all over the forum telling me how wrong I am, it's funny because I know so much more due to my proximity with the cargo of the flight and the Chief of Counterintelligence at the time (he was my CO).

I have to presume that most don't want the truth, it's easier to parrot BS and not think for themselves. Ultimately however I think the real problem is that if you are forced to think about what is really going on, you might have to do something about it. People are generally lazy, they don't want to have to do anything about the problem if they can help it.

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: TDawgRex

I get emotional about things, too. I may be benefitting from a RL that is taking enough of my attention that I can disassociate from what is going on right now.

FTR, I think it was the US. In my observation, our 3 letter agencies are the only ones dastardly enough to do this. I think Russia and Ukraine both have way too much to lose. But Uncle Sam? He is thinking about BRICS, and Russia trying to oust the petrodollar. Not to mention Snowden.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: TDawgRex

I get emotional about things, too.

I may be benefitting from a RL that is taking enough of my attention that I can disassociate from what is going on right now.

FTR, I think it was the US. In my observation, our 3 letter agencies are the only ones dastardly enough to do this. I think Russia and Ukraine both have way too much to lose. But Uncle Sam? He is thinking about BRICS, and Russia trying to oust the petrodollar. Not to mention Snowden.

The conspiracy side of me says you may be correct.

The RL side of me says that the best laid plans never survive first contact. And that is from experience.

With todays tech, a false flag would be easy to execute, easy to exploit, easy to discredit, etc, etc... But there will always be some one who is willing to buy it.

a reply to: TDawgRex

There is no end the US government would go to while ensuring supremacy of the Petrodollar. Without Russia, BRICS is just a jolly gentlemans club.