J. White calculates why Apollo craft could not have survived passage through the VABs

originally posted by: choos
a reply to: FoosM

funny how you didnt highlight the keywords..

they are able to measure at the billion electron volt level.. they did not say that there were billion electron volt particles..

They did so. Please read it again slowly, the whole paragraph.
Then get back to me.

Relativistic Proton Spectrometer (RPS)
The RPS will measure inner Van Allen belt protons with energies from 50 MeV to 2 GeV. Presently, the intensity of trapped protons with energies beyond about 150 MeV is not well known and thought to be underestimated in existing specification models. Such protons are known to pose a number of hazards to astronauts and spacecraft, including total ionizing dose, displacement damage, single event effects, and nuclear activation. This instrument will address a priority highly ranked by the scientific and technical community and will extend the measurement capability of this mission to a range beyond that originally planned. The project’s goal is development of a new standard radiation model for spacecraft design.

athena.jhuapl.edu...

Wow... wow. That was back in 2013.
NASA just admitted they had no way of knowing the extent of the energies in the Van Allen Belts
But now its clear. NASA does not, and did not have any shielding against such high energies.
So we have a contradiction.

Apollo went through the heart of the belt,
but there is no shielding that can protect astronauts through such belt.

a reply to: FoosM

No, Apollo did not go through the heart of the belt.

originally posted by: Rob48
a reply to: FoosM

No, Apollo did not go through the heart of the belt.

Who are you going to believe, NASA or some dude on the web?

Edit to add:
That drawing you provided is inaccurate, Apollo would not just escape the orbit in a straight line

a reply to: FoosM

You are aware of how much energy is in a single eV, yes?

1 electron Volt ( 1 eV) is = to 1.602176565 x 10^−19 Joules

That's 0.0000000000000000001602176565 Joules of energy.

2 GeV is 2 billion electron volts. That's the same as 0.0000000003204 Joules of energy.

A mosquito has 1 TRILLION electron volts ( 1 TeV) of energy.

Ionizing radiation dosage means you need to consider 3 factors:

Distance.
Shielding (if any, and air itself can act as shielding).
TIME.

The important thing to remember here is TIME. How long you or someone is exposed to the ionizing radiation.

Take a look at this chart, link provided to see it better:



Radiation Dosage Chart

1 Sv (sievert) = 1 Joul per kilogram

So, 2 GeV is equal to 3.204 x 10^-10 Jouls per kilogram or 0.0000000003204 sv, or 3.204 nano sv

According to the chart above, a single chest X-ray is 7 mSv, which is 0.007 Sv or:

A LOT more than 2 GeV of energy.

The Apollo astronauts went through this area very quickly. They didn't spend days, weeks or months being exposed to it. Their exposure was between 0.0016 to .0114 Sv or 0.016 to 1.14 rads.

Maximum exposure for US radiation workers is 50 mSv or 0.050 Sv....in other words: they received less than the maximum permitted for a person working at a nuclear power plant.

Why is it no one wants to do the math? Or they seem to forget the actual time spent in the strongest part of the belts?

originally posted by: FoosM

originally posted by: Rob48
a reply to: FoosM

No, Apollo did not go through the heart of the belt.

Who are you going to believe, NASA or some dude on the web?

Edit to add:
That drawing you provided is inaccurate, Apollo would not just escape the orbit in a straight line

That "dude on the web" plotted the course from the EXACT numbers provided by NASA, as you would know if you actually read his page.



Jarrah is still totally wrong even with his updated video.

originally posted by: eriktheawful
a reply to: FoosM


Why is it no one wants to do the math? Or they seem to forget the actual time spent in the strongest part of the belts?

Ah, so you agree that the Apollo supposedly would have gone through the strongest part of the belt?

originally posted by: Rob48

originally posted by: FoosM

originally posted by: Rob48
a reply to: FoosM

No, Apollo did not go through the heart of the belt.

Who are you going to believe, NASA or some dude on the web?

Edit to add:
That drawing you provided is inaccurate, Apollo would not just escape the orbit in a straight line

That "dude on the web" plotted the course from the EXACT numbers provided by NASA, as you would know if you actually read his page.

Jarrah is still totally wrong even with his updated video.

I read his page and ripped it apart a long time ago, but thanks anyway.

Doesnt really matter if JW is wrong or right, NASA has basically admitted themselves that
travel through the belt was impossible.

a reply to: FoosM

It doesn't matter if they did or not, because they went through quickly enough that they didn't receive a harmful dose of radiation. It's the exact same as when there have been nuclear accidents. You can be exposed to fairly high doses for short periods of time, and recover from it just fine. That's what happened here. They traveled through the belts quickly enough that they didn't receive a harmful dose.

originally posted by: FoosM

originally posted by: Rob48

originally posted by: FoosM

originally posted by: Rob48
a reply to: FoosM

No, Apollo did not go through the heart of the belt.

Who are you going to believe, NASA or some dude on the web?

Edit to add:
That drawing you provided is inaccurate, Apollo would not just escape the orbit in a straight line

That "dude on the web" plotted the course from the EXACT numbers provided by NASA, as you would know if you actually read his page.

Jarrah is still totally wrong even with his updated video.

I read his page and ripped it apart a long time ago, but thanks anyway.

Doesnt really matter if JW is wrong or right, NASA has basically admitted themselves that
travel through the belt was impossible.

Are you really trying to be that obtuse?

Are you actually READING posts?

Can you do math at all?

Can you not read a chart showing dosages of radiation?

NASA admitted no such thing.

You, on the other hand, are trying so desperately to make it seem as though they have.

Again: do you, or do you NOT understand what 2 GeV is?

Do you, or do you NOT understand what the acceptable dosage is?

Do you, or do you NOT understand that the AMOUNT OF TIME EXPOSED is VERY important in figuring out someone's radiation dosage?

Apparently, no. You do not understand, or you are closing your eyes, plugging your ears and yelling "BLAH BLAH BLAH!" so you do not have to accept facts.

The Van Allen Belts being used to prove Moon Hoax has been debunked over and over and over and over....and yet, none of you learn.

originally posted by: FoosM

originally posted by: Rob48

originally posted by: FoosM

originally posted by: Rob48
a reply to: FoosM

No, Apollo did not go through the heart of the belt.

Who are you going to believe, NASA or some dude on the web?

Edit to add:
That drawing you provided is inaccurate, Apollo would not just escape the orbit in a straight line

That "dude on the web" plotted the course from the EXACT numbers provided by NASA, as you would know if you actually read his page.

Jarrah is still totally wrong even with his updated video.

Doesnt really matter if JW is wrong or right, NASA has basically admitted themselves that
travel through the belt was impossible.

No, they didn't, because it wasn't.

If it "doesn't really matter if JW is wrong or right" then why did you post his video and ask whether anyone would challenge his maths?

It is clear that his maths was worse than terrible and he hasn't a clue about radiation.

Surely by now you ought to realise that Jarrah is just a big scam merchant?

Ask yourself this: why does he want you to think Apollo was a hoax?

originally posted by: FoosM

I read his page and ripped it apart a long time ago, but thanks anyway.

Doesnt really matter if JW is wrong or right, NASA has basically admitted themselves that
travel through the belt was impossible.

ripped it apart?? somehow i dont believe you given how much trouble you are having with calculating radiation dosage..

and also, you dont even know the flux of this billion electron volt..

do you plan to use this billion electron volt charge and multiply it with the flux of an area that is about two earth radii distance away, like you did with the 10-100MeV electrons?? you are being dishonest if so.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: FoosM

It doesn't matter if they did or not, because they went through quickly enough that they didn't receive a harmful dose of radiation. It's the exact same as when there have been nuclear accidents. You can be exposed to fairly high doses for short periods of time, and recover from it just fine. That's what happened here. They traveled through the belts quickly enough that they didn't receive a harmful dose.

If what you say is true, their dosimeters would have reflected that.
Warnings would have gone off.
But they supposedly cruised through the belts with no problems whatsoever.

"They traveled through the belts quick enough" is just your way of explaining the
inconsistency. And your "quick enough" started around 20 minutes till we proved it
took longer. Then it was an hour... till we proved it was longer. So your "quick enough"
theory has been falling apart over the years.

Fact: NASA admits to to at least one mission travelling through the heart of the VABs.
Fact: NASA admits no shielding could protect astronauts flying through the heart of the VABs.
Fact: Prior to Apollo missions, nobody could think of a way to get passed the VABs including Van Allen:

Even after Van Allen shielded his Geiger counters with lead, the results were still equivalent to 10-100rad/hr. He concluded that effective shielding of astronauts was beyond engineering feasibility available at the time, that even a rapid transit through the belts would be hazardous, and that for these reasons the two belts must be classed as an uninhabitable region of space that all manned space flight must steer clear of.

See that? Van Allen does not agree with your "Quick Enough" theory. There is no "quick enough" if there is no
sufficient shielding.


Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists Mar 1961

See that, there is no sufficient shielding.

Apollo was rated at 8 g/cm2. And we know thats not the entire capsule.
But lets say it was, its still below the 10g/cm2 you need for the Outer belt, and clearly not sufficient for the Inner belt. So please explain how they did it?

The "Aluminum Shielding" theory
All of a sudden honeycombed aluminum became a solution? Why? Was aluminum some miracle material discovered in the 60's? You will have to show that 8 g/cm2 of aluminum would be rated above 10g/cm2 shielding.

Remember, at least one mission went through the heart of the VABs, the hottest point.

a reply to: FoosM

There wouldn't have been warnings because they weren't exposed to a dangerous level of radiation.

You managed to go from one extreme to another. You have the dose for zero shielding, and the shielding required to completely block all radiation. You seem to think that there is no middle ground, it's all or nothing. All they had to do was attenuate enough to get through, which the Apollo shielding did.

Once again: the Apollo missions did not go through "the heart of the belt".



Those red dots represent 10 minute intervals. How long did it spend in the zone with more than 1000 particles per cm² per second? Less than three minutes.

originally posted by: FoosM
If what you say is true, their dosimeters would have reflected that.

The dosimeters do reflect that.

Warnings would have gone off.

Neither the radiation telemetry to the ground nor the personal dosimeters gave cause for concern. The lack of warnings should tell you something.

But they supposedly cruised through the belts with no problems whatsoever.

Your choice of words is disingenuous - they did not cruise through the belts, the took a path that minimised their exposure to them, which was always the plan. They were more concerned with solar flare events than the VB.

"They traveled through the belts quick enough" is just your way of explaining the
inconsistency. And your "quick enough" started around 20 minutes till we proved it
took longer. Then it was an hour... till we proved it was longer. So your "quick enough"
theory has been falling apart over the years.

'Proved''? 'We'?

You have proved nothing other than you know how to copy and paste from an incompetent lying bully's website without referencing it. In your own words then, how long did they spend in the VAB? Provide us with evidence of the trajectory, and timings and the doses you think they would have received as a result. Do some maths for us.

Fact: NASA admits to to at least one mission travelling through the heart of the VABs.

Until you provide a source for this claim, as requested several times, you're making it up.

Fact: NASA admits no shielding could protect astronauts flying through the heart of the VABs.

Source, or you're making it up.

Fact: Prior to Apollo missions, nobody could think of a way to get passed the VABs including Van Allen:

Source, or you're making it up. The article you quote says the VAB are regions to steer clear of. This is considerably different to going through them. When planning the missions, as has been pointed out to you several times, the designed a trajectory that minimised their exposure to them.

See that? Van Allen does not agree with your "Quick Enough" theory. There is no "quick enough" if there is no
sufficient shielding.

That isn't what it says. It says it would be hazardous without shielding.

See that, there is no sufficient shielding.

Not what it says. Read it again. You're also relying on a 1961 report to bolster your argument when by the time Apollo flew both the Soviets and USA had much more data from unmanned probes that actually made it as far as the moon.

Apollo was rated at 8 g/cm2. And we know thats not the entire capsule.

And? The article you quote says 'projected shielding'. Did this figure remain the standard by the time Apollo flew?

But lets say it was, its still below the 10g/cm2 you need for the Outer belt, and clearly not sufficient for the Inner belt. So please explain how they did it?

Source? They did it by minimising their exposure to it.

The "Aluminum Shielding" theory
All of a sudden honeycombed aluminum became a solution? Why? Was aluminum some miracle material discovered in the 60's? You will have to show that 8 g/cm2 of aluminum would be rated above 10g/cm2 shielding.

It wasn't just aluminium. Aluminium shielding isn't a theory, it's been used in spacecraft for decades.

Remember, at least one mission went through the heart of the VABs, the hottest point.

Repeating the same claim numerous times doesn't make it so. Provide a source for the claim or you're making it up.

All you have done so far is dismiss figures you don't like and provide none of your own.

Stop parroting Jarrah and provide us with some numbers that back up your claims. Who are you going to believe? NASA or some dude off the web?

originally posted by: Rob48
Once again: the Apollo missions did not go through "the heart of the belt".

Those red dots represent 10 minute intervals. How long did it spend in the zone with more than 1000 particles per cm² per second? Less than three minutes.

And the dosimeters didnt go off?
Why not?

originally posted by: onebigmonkey

originally posted by: FoosM
If what you say is true, their dosimeters would have reflected that.

The dosimeters do reflect that.

So this is your "dosimeter theory"
The fact that the dosimeters didnt go off meant Apollo was successful?
Really?
How about, the dosimeters didnt go off because they didnt go through the VABs in the first place?
That's more logical.

Because how do you explain that Apollo went through harsher radioactive environments for longer periods of time than Mercury or Gemini but their levels were the same?

a reply to: FoosM

What do you mean by "the dosimeters didn't go off"?