The Absurdness of Conspiracy Theories (The Truth About MH17, Why Do People Not Want To See It?)

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

Here is one more poster creating a thread based on propaganda.

It is a war and both sides are engaging in propaganda. Why is it so hard to decipher.

The OP makes a case out of rebels having a Buk-M system. That is hardly a case as it is well known.

The issue is who shot MH17. Having a Buk-M does not mean shooting down MH-17.

Why would rebels shoot down a commercial plane? There is no benefit or gain in it. However situation is different with the Ukraine government which is asking for arms and money to fight the rebels.

Something I wrote on a thread that linked mh370 to mh17

But obviously there's the conspiracy theorists who are so paranoid that think that anything said in a news report is a sign of the Illuminati who plan on destroying us all by dissecting our brains.

But honestly, you never know, mh17 could of been 370. I was believe that at first until I read articles about other people who lost family members on mh17. One Australian family lost family members on both flights. One UK couple was sick to the stomach when they figured out that their original flight was on mh17, but was later changed to a different flight. Passports and other items were collected at the crash sight. Therefore the people on the plane were not from mh370. If it was mh370, then where the heck is mh17? Also where are the people from mh370.

Malaysia Airlines wouldn't just hide the real mh17 and give it a new paint job and name change, in order for the real mh370 to be destroyed over Ukraine. Why? Because this would (did) ruin their reputation and would start losing more costumers because people would be scared. They'll loose money.

I agree with the OP

My own "belief"--if I might gingerly call it so--that there is something more to the MH17 debacle, stems from the classic "see who benefits most" train of thought, coupled to the quaintly coincidental timing when laid against another world event.

Can we agree that geopolitics is a LONG game, not merely day to day but that the schtick is drawn out over weeks and months and even years? The evidence seems to suggest so. In that case, take a look back over the whole Ukrainian uprising/civil war/separatist battle that has been going on for quite some time now and has shown no signs of abating. The general consensus is that the Europeans and Americans wish to isolate Russia as much as possible. The problems in Ukraine, however, are dragging on and on, and in my opinion I believe that the Ukrainian military were staring down the barrel of a bloody and protracted stalemate.

I'm exhausted--less than four hours sleep last night--so I'll curtail my discursive post into something a little more...whatever you want to call it. The MH17 disaster BENEFITS the Ukraine. It puts a moral fire under their enemies. Mh17 BENEFITS other western powers; Russia becomes the boogey man, and this is fine because we might be able to make Putin jump through a few hoops and do what WE want for a change, instead of being so downright fierce and independent and not going with the occidental flow.

Take a look at the inordinate level of outrage to this tragedy. For DAYS now, various politicians are using this disaster like a well loved chew toy! Its as if the towers in New York had collapsed all over again! Meanwhile we've got HUNDREDS of civillian deaths in Israel and Palestine, and the responses are muted, measured and never rising to the height that the situation so sorely deserves. Coincidentally enough, didn't MH17 explode on the SAME day the Israelis rolled into Gaza? How much of a psychological cover has this provided?

I apologize for the poorly worded contents of this post. I shouldn't write when I'm tired. There IS more to this than meets the eye. To think otherwise is to be somewhat blind, to history, to basic rationalism, and to even an elemental grasping of political science and geopolitical mechanics--not to mention the dark hearts and minds of mankind.

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed
It is an obvious case of mistaken identity and a very foolish route chosen by someone in Malaysian airlines. Flying over an active warzone, one where planes have previously been getting shot down , is kind of asking to get smoked.

The only conspiracy I see here is media distraction. Distraction from the border invasion occurring now.

originally posted by: voyger2
a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

My opinion at this time is very simple:

The Rebels did it.

The Rebels were bated (flight path altered) by Ukrainian Forces - If true (let's wait for the cross of information from traffic control recordings and the black box's, at the moment in opposite hands - better still) we have a different ball game. It is called co-responsibility.

This. If Ukraine knew (and they likely did, since they'ge been saying all along they have a good intelligence apparatus) that the rebels had a BUK, the airspace should have been completely closed, both and below 32,000 feet.

People like a story with intrigue, murder, and suspense. They don't enjoy the humdrum, mundane existence of normal life. They will take a tragedy over a feel-good story every day, and that's why.

Why do you think people get excited over even a nasty snow storm? Or a bunch of tornadoes? Why do you think the media portrays 95% of the bad in their news? There is probably a near-equal amount of good but "humdrum" stories out there. Those are the stories that get relegated to the last 5 minutes of the news.

It's why pretty much 100% of any media-worthy event.. be it a plane crash, a suicide, a hurricane, a war, a mass-killing on ATS is called a false flag event. Something planned for a sinister result usually involving the alphabet agencies, the Illuminati, the Bilderbergers, etc. Heck... NOTHING occurs on ATS that wasn't a false flag or a redirection. There are no accidents on ATS.. ever. : )

Just roll with it.. it's impossible to fight. Personally I think it's humanities loss of needing to survive. For thousands and thousands of years.. we had to evolve and survive.. and our brains are hard-wired for it. With life being much simpler now (relatively speaking), we crave a disaster or something else that will kick our survival mechanisms into place.

Of course.. there -are- some actual conspiracies. But I have a feeling it's actually in the neighborhood of say.. 5% of events.. or less. Certainly not the 100% that is portrayed on this site. But to be fair, this is a conspiracy site.

This sums up 100% of my thoughts for this event, I've always wondered why people always have to go to the "FALSE FLAG FALSE FLAG" theories, don't people realize that the world is a place where governments aren't the only ones who do harm? The world isn't perfect, people hurt each other everyday because they themselves control what they do not the government, yes governments might do bad things to get support for something they want but that doesn't mean everything that goes wrong on our planet is due to governments.

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

Responding to the Original Poster's Observations/Question...

Conspiracy theories abound because the richest nations on the planet contain millions of people with relatively mundane lives, and lots of extra time on their hands.

BTW..thanks for finding/posting most of the early MH17 evidence to a single thread. You're right. It's straight-forward and damning..at least against the Pro-Russia rebels. The "black boxes" and any evidence found at the crash site will only support what's already as obvious as Prez Putin's famous smirk.

If it were a lesser country than Russia involved In this, there would be hell to pay. But since this is Russia and countries put $money$ ahead of ethics, there won't be any meaningful punishment.
cwm

Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is usually the right one. What is more likely? A group of untrained rebels who managed to capture a Buk missile system that Kiev says they rendered inoperable shot down a passenger airliner, or the military of a nation that recently had started to lose the war in a big way and deployed 27 such missile systems in the Donetsk area shot it down? Occam's razor suggests that Kiev shot it down. They are responsible for the airspace of their country. No country would allow this plane to fly over such an area even if the rebels only had shoulder fired missiles because they could have managed to get better weapons. The most likely explanation is that the Ukrainian army shot it down by accident. This wouldn't be the first time they shot down a passenger airliner. The second most likely explanation is that they ordered the plane to divert to the area and lower in altitude (which has been proven), hoping that the rebels would shoot it down. The third most likely explanation is that the Kiev government shot it down on purpose, either with a buk system, or an air to air missile (it hasn't been proven that a surface to air missile was used), to pin it on the rebels in a bid to create a game changer in their losing war. Those who automatically believe that the rebels did it, are not basing their opinion on facts. They are basing their opinion on statements provided by the Kiev and US governments which have not been proven to be accurate. Both of these governments have a history of lying to the world. NO ONE KNOWS WHO SHOT DOWN THE PLANE. There are no facts to suggest who did it. It could be anything from the Malaysian government to Al Qaida to an accident. We still don't know what happened to the first Malaysian plane. We should determine what happened to that plane before we come to a conclusion as to what happened to this one. They could be related.

Why did they divert its flight path. First they were saying it was because of a storm but..then because of fuel ? Has this been gone over yet?

Personally I'm not sure what to believe. I just know that crash site looks a lot different than the Shanksville crash site

www.historycommons.org.../11=complete_911_timeline_shanksville__pennsylvania&timeline=complete_911_timeline

Just wanted to add. Why would people who control that air space allow a passenger air craft to fly over where just recently other planes have been shot down?

originally posted by: Expat888
You fell for the fairytale the americans created ... dont worry your not alone 80% of the population is susceptible to brainwashing/propaganda ..

Wow, straight out of Dr. Strangelove....

"Try one of these Jamaican cigars, Mr Abassador. They're pretty good."

"Thank you no, I do not support the work of capitalist stooges."

"Oh, only commie stooges?"

NoRulesAllowed , you need to understand you're not right. You need to understand that you're not right in the eyes of people who lack rational understanding of reality. I see this thread and I remember why I stopped reading this.

The best choice I've ever made was to stop reading the garbage, and only mainly skim over the Aviation section of the forums on my free time. Want to know why I stopped posting and reading on this forum? Because this isn't a 'conspiracy' forum, it's an anti-American/Israel forum where anything that is wrong with this world is caused by America. There is a board out there that focuses on real conspiracys, with only solid proof has to back up the claim and it filters out most of the garbage which is what I skim from time to time.

This is how conspiracy theorizing works: anything can be interpreted as evidence for the “theory.” Bomb dogs present? Government was in on it. Bomb dogs not present? Government was in on it. High security? Government knew. Light security? Government knew. No photos of victims? No victims. Photos of victims? Fakes and actors. Police don’t catch a suspect? They let him escape on purpose. Police caught suspect? Framed patsy. Security cameras show suspects? Photoshop. Cameras don’t show them? Cover up.

I mean, post pictures of civilian airliners over Russia containing contrails and most peoples minds would explode. They wouldn't know what to think. Is our Lord Putin really pulling the wool over the eyes of the world by poisoning the skys?! Nahhh, photoshopped.

I advise you to move on to another thread, NoRulesAllowed.

Everything stated in the OP, yes, this is "clear as day" to anyone willing to look into all sides and then try to take a best guess as to what most likely happened. The problem is that there are now way too many b.s. stories circulating both from "official" sources and the wonderful community of conspiracy theorists =) Now, anyone reading the recent updates about the multiple different scenarios Russian media is pushing out, it reeks of guilt/cover up.The story on their end has changed at least 3 times, with shaky evidence (though some that raises questions) On the other hand, western media has pretty much stuck with the same basic theory as to what occured. We can all speculate as to what game is being played here and by whom, thanks to this wonderful worldwide media snafu. The fact of the matter is that at this point we will never actually know 100% what happened.

Too many stinky fish here, won't be able to get the smell out

The paradox with conspiracy theories is that any proof you provide to discount it will inevitably be discounted as doctored or manufactured, so it will go in a never ending circle.

People believe what they want to believe, and in most cases no amount of proof will alter that.

With the NSA and GCHQ possessing very sophisticated tools to inject "evidence" into the social media conversation with JTRIG, I am a bit surprised we still refer to it as evidence. For me, there are still many pieces to be assembled in this puzzle, but my instincts are asking such questions as "Who benefits the most from this?" and "Who stands to lose the most?" These answers guide my thinking until we have more concrete facts upon which to base our thinking.

The fact that the US Media were announcing the answers so quickly (a la 9/11) made me distrust that interpretation off the bat, so if I had to point a finger now (in advance of the full investigation), I would point it at the Ukrainian Interior Ministry, as they stand to gain the most from getting the US and NATO involved to help them defeat the rebels. The rebels don't really gain anything from it.
a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

a reply to: 3v0lv3r

This requires the fact that they knew what type of aircraft they were firing at before shooting it down. The rebels have downed multiple aircraft, and they had recently made a warning to stay out of that airspace. They pick up an aircraft on radar, maybe visually confirm it, and they fire. The aircraft was high enough that distinguishing features would be difficult to make out, and they could have fired before total confirmation. I'm not saying at all that this was what happened in any way, but it should be considered before asking who has the most to gain/lose from this when it was a war zone that aircraft were being shot down in. Heat of the moment, could be a really big help if they're taking down a supply craft etc fire rocket...oops. I mean let's be honest, solders do make mistakes, especially "rebel" solders who have sketchy training at best.

There's too much going on with this story to even make an educated guess, but as logical as your point is and as great a way of looking at it that is, it requires eliminating the possibility that these solders fired on what they thought was a potential military target and messed up identifying the plane. While I'm sure there might be some kind of "evidence" getting pushed out somewhere to write off the possibility of a mistake, at this point we're getting a lot of information and no facts. All possibilities need to be considered

a reply to: yorkshirelad

And since you side with all the official stories, you believe that you are not a conspiracist??

Worse than anything, is a total denier, one who believes things just "are not that complicated"!!

a reply to: Laxpla

LoL you do not seem to realize that conspiracy theorizing is the exact same as any other religion, in how it works, how it can be controlled, and how it appears to others.

Please grace us with the truth, so we can know why governments do not lie, save for when protecting us from the truth.

And tell us how you can always detect WHEN all powerful corporations and hidden groups in this world cannot pull the wool over your eyes.

And finally, describe how living inside a box, sheltering yourself from those thoughts which scare and confuse you, brings you "peace".

originally posted by: Milleresque
My own "belief"--if I might gingerly call it so--that there is something more to the MH17 debacle, stems from the classic "see who benefits most" train of thought, coupled to the quaintly coincidental timing when laid against another world event.

Can we agree that geopolitics is a LONG game, not merely day to day but that the schtick is drawn out over weeks and months and even years? The evidence seems to suggest so. In that case, take a look back over the whole Ukrainian uprising/civil war/separatist battle that has been going on for quite some time now and has shown no signs of abating. The general consensus is that the Europeans and Americans wish to isolate Russia as much as possible. The problems in Ukraine, however, are dragging on and on, and in my opinion I believe that the Ukrainian military were staring down the barrel of a bloody and protracted stalemate.

I'm exhausted--less than four hours sleep last night--so I'll curtail my discursive post into something a little more...whatever you want to call it. The MH17 disaster BENEFITS the Ukraine. It puts a moral fire under their enemies. Mh17 BENEFITS other western powers; Russia becomes the boogey man, and this is fine because we might be able to make Putin jump through a few hoops and do what WE want for a change, instead of being so downright fierce and independent and not going with the occidental flow.

Take a look at the inordinate level of outrage to this tragedy. For DAYS now, various politicians are using this disaster like a well loved chew toy! Its as if the towers in New York had collapsed all over again! Meanwhile we've got HUNDREDS of civillian deaths in Israel and Palestine, and the responses are muted, measured and never rising to the height that the situation so sorely deserves. Coincidentally enough, didn't MH17 explode on the SAME day the Israelis rolled into Gaza? How much of a psychological cover has this provided?

I apologize for the poorly worded contents of this post. I shouldn't write when I'm tired. There IS more to this than meets the eye. To think otherwise is to be somewhat blind, to history, to basic rationalism, and to even an elemental grasping of political science and geopolitical mechanics--not to mention the dark hearts and minds of mankind.

Hah!

I look forward to reading your words after you've had a good night's sleep!

You've made more sense then anyone else I've read today.