The Absurdness of Conspiracy Theories (The Truth About MH17, Why Do People Not Want To See It?)

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

There's a strange comfort in presuming that some all-powerful, shadowy sinister group is behind all tragedies.

Much easier to speculate about the IllumiNSACIACabalNWO (or insert boogey-man of choice) than face the disconcerting realization that, maybe, just maybe, the world is essentially rudderless, and no one is truly at the wheel of the ship.

Just my two pennies.

originally posted by: Mr Mask
You question nothing, you research nothing, you speak loudly against those questioning, and you have zero understanding of how an information war works.

Oh, and lets not forget you think Twitter is a solid source for information.

Man...farmers in Syria have more insight on these tactics than you. You must spend a lot of time in front of TV.

MM

It's funny because in my opinion, I do exactly the OPPOSITE of what you believe I do.
My skepticism is BECAUSE I question a lot, in this case "alternative" theories and their validity/logic. I look at the "official" and commonly believed events...and at the alternative and decide WHICH of those makes more sense.

Simply questioning and doubting an official story just "because it is hip" to question and hip to be "anti establishment"..and then tending towards another theory EVEN IF FAR FETCHED...imho is not smart, it's ignorant.

For instance, I am believing in 9/11 the OFFICIAL STORY, that terrorists attacked the WTC in planes, not because I did not question the story, but because no alternative theory convinced me that it is true.

I am believing in that rebels shot down this plane because the theory this was a set-up, involving an intentional shoot-down of a commercial airliner and then a massive intelligence campaign to fake tweets and posts...is LESS LIKELY than the more simple explanation. Although I admit that in this case, this alternative theory IS possible, it is less speculative than many other conspiracy theories out there. Even then, if I *were* to believe the other side of the story I would need evidence. So far, I haven't seen it. Neither have I see evidence for chemtrails, NASA coverups, dead bodies on planes or holograms/actors staging a 9/11 attack.

And by the way, I haven't watched TV in 10+ years. But I am ALSO not hanging out on random conspiracy sites and believe anything I read just because "it is cool" to have an opinion which is anti MSM/anti establishment.

Text en.m.wikipedia.org...

It looks to me that Kiev is in charge of the site and always has been. The rebels are blocking the freezer car and train that the bodies were loaded onto.
And what in the world is that rubber looking cadaver that the website I reference to is talking about?
to me it is starting to look like everyone, kiev and all the oligarchs that congregated in kiev, putin, langley, the pentagon, israel, nato, EVERYONE looks to be in on this. All the media worldwide seems to be playing this up. This looks staged and planned, even the discussion we are having.

This event has a different air to it, a feeling that is "the business". (A gambling/hustler term)
I am seeing what looks like a very well orchestrated "man-in-the-middle" operation. Thats how they can get so much actual audio and video live that they can then edit to sell the story.

man in the middle, this is the protocol of nsa operations and langely. This is an information war.

Text the-tap.blogspot.com...

Text BBC Says: The UK has accused the Russian government of not doing enough to pressure separatists who control the area to allow international access to the crash site.

Kiev Says: “As of today we managed to load 192 bodies and 8 body parts of the innocent victims of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 flight onto a special train,” Vice Prime Minister of Ukraine, Volodymyr Hroisman, said in a statement on the government’s website today.

So Kiev IS in charge of the crash site! Maybe they always were...

The rebels are blocking the train from moving, I read, but that's all and it's potentially a reasonable request...

www.independent.co.uk... tml

originally posted by: NoRulesAllowed
For instance, I am believing in 9/11 the OFFICIAL STORY, that terrorists attacked the WTC in planes, not because I did not question the story, but because no alternative theory convinced me that it is true.

So, when in doubt, you believe the official story. You don't even seem to understand the depth of your conditioning.

You believe a story not because it's inherently convincing, but because no story is more convincing. If you find no story convincing you should remain agnostic. Not accept the official story.

Geez, someone has done a number on you.

originally posted by: NoRulesAllowed
In other words: Whether we will ever know the truth....is questionable...

Welcome to ATS. This is the best example of a fact that I have seen yet.

Your entire OP may be 100% right. Or not.

Trust, but verify.

There are many possibilities and since you do not know ''the truth'', perhaps you could refrain from judging those of a more rational nature that choose to exercise their own faculties and sense of justice to gather facts and data before making any irrational conclusions.

The most absurd thing is to fall for the lies of the US media AGAIN!

Here are serious news people who dispute what the OP has gobbled up: the MSM lies and accepted them eventhough they have already helped lie us into the war in Iraq
Almost lied us into a war with Syria and now are trying to lie us into a war with Russia!

Lied about 911
Vietnam
CUBA
I could go on and on. But you see that’s how they get away with things, the mentality of this op is everything out of the MSM has to be true, eventhough they have lied and been caught too many times

THEY DON’T DESERVE TO BE BELIEVED!
You have to earn trust

MH17: Weathering the Propaganda Firestorm

“The level of unsubstantiated propaganda being directed against Russia regarding the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 has reached unprecedented lows. There is tangible desperation across Western media establishments, their political spheres, and within their corporate-financier funded policy think-tanks as they attempt to reassert their agenda and narrative not only upon the crisis in Ukraine, but upon the entire world as their weakening grip becomes apparent to all. The dangerous desperation emanating from the West follows the latest in a series of growing failures - the previous and most comparable being the loss of its proxy war against Syria and the desperate criminal conspiracy they unleashed in a failed attempt to save it.”

What Did US Spy Satellites See in Ukraine?

Exclusive: The U.S. media’s Ukraine bias has been obvious, siding with the Kiev regime and bashing ethnic Russian rebels and Russia’s President Putin. But now – with the scramble to blame Putin for the Malaysia Airlines shoot-down – the shoddy journalism has grown truly dangerous, says Robert Parry. By Robert Parry In the heat of the U.S. media’s latest war hysteria – rushing to pin blame for the crash of a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet on Russia’s President Vladimir Putin – there is the same absence of professional skepticism that has marked similar stampedes on Iraq, Syria and elsewhere – with key questions not being asked or answered. The dog-not-barking question on the catastrophe over Ukraine is: what did the U.S. surveillance satellite imagery show? It’s hard to believe that – with the attention that U.S. intelligence has concentrated on eastern Ukraine for the past half year that the alleged trucking of several large Buk anti-aircraft missile systems from Russia to Ukraine and then back to Russia didn’t show up somewhere.

So why hasn’t this question of U.S. spy-in-the-sky photos – and what they reveal – been pressed by the major U.S. news media? How can the Washington Post run front-page stories, such as the one on Sunday with the definitive title “U.S. official: Russia gave systems,” without demanding from these U.S. officials details about what the U.S. satellite images disclose? Instead, the Post’s Michael Birnbaum and Karen DeYoung wrote from Kiev: “The United States has confirmed that Russia supplied sophisticated missile launchers to separatists in eastern Ukraine and that attempts were made to move them back across the Russian border after the Thursday shoot-down of a Malaysian jetliner, a U.S. official said Saturday. “‘We do believe they were trying to move back into Russia at least three Buk [missile launch] systems,’ the official said. U.S. intelligence was ‘starting to get indications … a little more than a week ago’ that the Russian launchers had been moved into Ukraine, said the official” whose identity was withheld by the Post so the official would discuss intelligence matters. But catch the curious vagueness of the official’s wording: “we do believe”; “starting to get indications.” Are we supposed to believe – and perhaps more relevant, do the Washington Post writers actually believe – that the U.S. government with the world’s premier intelligence services can’t track three lumbering trucks each carrying large mid-range missiles?

What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms. The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said. Instead of pressing for these kinds of details, the U.S. mainstream press has simply passed on the propaganda coming from the Ukrainian government and the U.S. State Department, including hyping the fact that the Buk system is “Russian-made,” a rather meaningless fact that gets endlessly repeated. However, to use the “Russian-made” point to suggest that the Russians must have been involved in the shoot-down is misleading at best and clearly designed to influence ill-informed Americans. As the Post and other news outlets surely know, the Ukrainian military also operates Russian-made military systems, including Buk anti-aircraft batteries, so the manufacturing origin has no probative value here. Relying on the Ukraine Regime Much of the rest of the known case against Russia comes from claims made by the Ukrainian regime, which emerged from the unconstitutional coup d’etat against elected President Viktor Yanukovych on Feb. 22. His overthrow followed months of mass protests, but the actual coup was spearheaded by neo-Nazi militias that overran government buildings and forced Yanukovych’s officials to flee. In recognition of the key role played by the neo-Nazis, who are ideological descendants of Ukrainian militias that collaborated with the Nazi SS in World War II, the new regime gave these far-right nationalists control of several ministries, including the office of national security which is under the command of longtime neo-Nazi activist Andriy Parubiy.[See Consortiumnews.com’s “Ukraine, Through the US Looking Glass.”] It was this same Parubiy whom the Post writers turned to seeking more information condemning the eastern Ukrainian rebels and the Russians regarding the Malaysia Airlines catastrophe. Parubiy accused the rebels in the vicinity of the crash site of destroying evidence and conducting a cover-up, another theme that resonated through the MSM. Without bothering to inform readers of Parubiy’s unsavory neo-Nazi background, the Post quoted him as a reliable witness declaring: “It will be hard to conduct a full investigation with some of the objects being taken away, but we will do our best.”

In contrast to Parubiy’s assurances, the Kiev regime actually has a terrible record of telling the truth or pursuing serious investigations of human rights crimes. Still left open are questions about the identity of snipers who on Feb. 20 fired on both police and protesters at the Maidan, touching off the violent escalation that led to Yanukovych’s ouster. Also, the Kiev regime has failed to ascertain the facts about the death-by-fire of scores of ethnic Russians in the Trade Union Building in Odessa on May 2. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Burning Ukraine’s Protesters Alive.”] The Kie

originally posted by: generik
here is all the facts as can be proven so far. an aircraft went down in the zone of war in the Ukrainian civil war. that is it, everything else at this point is speculations. be it from western sources, Russian sources, twitter accounts, facebook posts or the freaky haired guy saying it was the ancient aliens that did it. none of it can be called proof.

This...

This is logic. For those just joining the world's stage and its event from the comfort of your little chair...the post I am quoting is all you need to know.

For those just recently getting involved with "critical thinking" (you know who you are), this is what you must eventually accept if you are to participate in an adult conversation about your world around you.

Not "lets trust TWEETS BRO!"

MM

originally posted by: Moresby
So, when in doubt, you believe the official story. You don't even seem to understand the depth of your conditioning.

Being skeptical -- and conspiracy theorists are the pure definition of skeptical -- requires questioning the validity of all sources. However, when dozens of independently corroborating sources paint a unified picture, even if that picture is labeled "the official story," one needs to afford it some credibility. Especially when, a small number of affiliated contrarian sources tell a unified and completely different story -- Russian propaganda.

To me, those independently corroborating sources paint this picture:

1) Russian separatist rebels in eastern Ukraine have previously shot down Ukrainian military aircraft, most-likely with sophisticated weapon systems such as the Russian BUK.

2) The Russian BUK is a complicated weapons system requiring significant training to hit a target, training that can only come from Russia.

3) The immediate "chatter" after the downing of MH17 (caught by several sources) strongly indicates involvement by Russian separatist rebels -- including "chatter" reconnoitering debris.

4) The immediate follow-up by Russian separatist rebels is classic cover-up by taking control of the debris fields and tainting any and all evidence, and in many cases, removing evidence.

5) The immediate follow-up by Russian-funded/controlled Propaganda media (RT.com) has been classic deflection and obfuscation through many techniques of bias-confirmation and false information.

6) And finally -- the Russian response is playing out exactly like the downing of KAL007 in 1983, so if this all seams familiar, it's because it is.


Being skeptical of media is one thing, and while important, it shouldn't trump denial of logical conclusions in the face of overwhelming points of data.


My take: it was a mistake by anxious Russian separatist rebels, and is now a panicked Russian cover-up.

originally posted by: tridentblue
a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

Sometimes it's simple, but then there's the 900 pound gorilla in the room. Currently, about 90% of Russia's 147 million people are living in a totally different reality, following 1+1 simple reporting from their news media about how Ukraine did it, following a totally different trail of evidence and facts that proves that. I think this is what I was reading:
www.theguardian.com...
Would he have the high support if they believed what you are saying? No. So they are living in a different reality.
And that's a big part of the wars of the 20th century, different groups of people living in different realities constructed for them, all of which seem 1+1 obvious to them, to the point they will take up arms and kill each other.

great post man. You totally get it.

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed


Except there is no real evidence.

The air craft they shot down weren't flying anywhere NEAR as high as this jet. Also, the Ukraine also has the same weapons system and have actual motive to bring down a passenger jet. The rebels are not going to have much experience with this system.

The so called proof is sketchy at best, especially the audio tape. Sorry, it's not conspiracy theory. There is satellite data that will tell exactly who brought this down, but no one wants to reveal their capabilities. I would probably look at the group with the airforce and experience with BUK (ukraine) first. Especially since it was reported the jet was being shadowed by fighter jets.

originally posted by: SkepticOverlord

originally posted by: Moresby
So, when in doubt, you believe the official story. You don't even seem to understand the depth of your conditioning.

Being skeptical -- and conspiracy theorists are the pure definition of skeptical -- requires questioning the validity of all sources. However, when dozens of independently corroborating sources paint a unified picture, even if that picture is labeled "the official story," one needs to afford it some credibility. Especially when, a small number of affiliated contrarian sources tell a unified and completely different story -- Russian propaganda.

To me, those independently corroborating sources paint this picture:

1) Russian separatist rebels in eastern Ukraine have previously shot down Ukrainian military aircraft, most-likely with sophisticated weapon systems such as the Russian BUK.

2) The Russian BUK is a complicated weapons system requiring significant training to hit a target, training that can only come from Russia.

3) The immediate "chatter" after the downing of MH17 (caught by several sources) strongly indicates involvement by Russian separatist rebels -- including "chatter" reconnoitering debris.

4) The immediate follow-up by Russian separatist rebels is classic cover-up by taking control of the debris fields and tainting any and all evidence, and in many cases, removing evidence.

5) The immediate follow-up by Russian-funded/controlled Propaganda media (RT.com) has been classic deflection and obfuscation through many techniques of bias-confirmation and false information.

6) And finally -- the Russian response is playing out exactly like the downing of KAL007 in 1983, so if this all seams familiar, it's because it is.


Being skeptical of media is one thing, and while important, it shouldn't trump denial of logical conclusions in the face of overwhelming points of data.


My take: it was a mistake by anxious Russian separatist rebels, and is now a panicked Russian cover-up.

Your first point isn't worth much without noting the differences in altitude between those planes and a commercial aircraft cruising at 33,000 feet. One can shoot down a cargo plane landing or taking off with a shoulder mounted system.

Your second point would be refuted by the fact that Ukrainians also have this system and likely have more people in country trained to use it.

Third point, the separatists had downed several planes before and the chatter locates the downing of the alleged Malai flight at a location 60 km from where it was actually downed. The explanation by Russia for these discrepancies is that the call Ukraine is claiming as evidence is actually a (poorly) pieced together work of several calls.

I am not saying one side over the other, but there just isn't nearly enough evidence to tell. Of course the group in control of that area is going to take control of the crash site. They certainly aren't going to let their enemy. An enemy that has more motive and also initiated the no fly zone.

It could have been either the Ukrainians or the separatists, but to say either side is more likely is way premature. My guess would be the US and Russia both know from satellite data, but they won't tell the public because no one wants to reveal their capabilities and they rely on this from each other.

If you recall, last time the US got riled up over the action of an enemy it was them blaming Syria for gas attacks that were actually committed by the rebels the our government was trying to support.

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

how about this...we have been lied to so many times by just about everyone that its so hard to believe anything...i think that is why...we over question everything.

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

My opinion at this time is very simple:

The Rebels did it.

The Rebels were bated (flight path altered) by Ukrainian Forces - If true (let's wait for the cross of information from traffic control recordings and the black box's, at the moment in opposite hands - better still) we have a different ball game. It is called co-responsibility.

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

Ah Yes If Twitter Says it must be True Right? Remember Syria? whatever happened to all those opposition twitter users?

a reply to: voyger2

Why didn't the rebels shoot down the slower, lower Ukrainian jets then?

There is zero reason to think it was the rebels over the Ukrainians. The rebels were starting to turn the tide, and Ukrainians had more motive. Also if the Ukrainians had actually had jets up there then they could have identified the plane and made a plan. The Ukrainians were more capable of taking it down from surface or air.

That's all just theory though. We have no idea who downed it.

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

Russia Today is an State Funded controlled Propaganda media? and what does that make CNN and other news sources outlets reliable sources?

My take: it was a mistake by anxious Russian separatist rebels, and is now a panicked Russian cover-up.

So Russia is in an panicked cover up? i have to disagree. Your actually believing the American Government the same Gov that lied and almost started an intervention in Syria based on false pretexts.

3) The immediate "chatter" after the downing of MH17 (caught by several sources) strongly indicates involvement by Russian separatist rebels -- including "chatter" reconnoitering debris.

2) The Russian BUK is a complicated weapons system requiring significant training to hit a target, training that can only come from Russia.

The Ukrainian Military has BUK weapons system in its military gear as Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union. For you to claim that the rebels somehow have BUK you have to provide some proof. No offense admin.

has been classic deflection and obfuscation through many techniques of bias-confirmation and false information.

Assad did it! Putin did it! Russia was behind it and the usual many techniques of western bias through the use of Propaganda already finger pointed even before any evidence.

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: voyger2

Why didn't the rebels shoot down the slower, lower Ukrainian jets then?

The most important point, IMO, Is why did Ukrainians intentional divert the flight path to a new trajectory (were the rebels were shooting at antonovs or plains) escorting them with a jet fighter endangering the safety of the civil aircraft. If they did that, they are co-responsible for the tragic results.

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: voyger2
That's all just theory though. We have no idea who downed it.

True. Let's wait for recordings from Kiev Traffic control and the black box's.

This will likely get buried and missed like most of my other posts....

But we know that they (Russian backed rebels) received a Buk type AA system prior to this happening. I think that it was honestly just a case of someone having the equipment and wanting to use it.

I can't seem to wrap my mind around any reasons that Russia would condone this sort of behavior. There is no benefit in it for them to be responsible for the deaths of foreign nationals for no reason.

I can see why Ukraine might want to "stage" this, but do they have the capability. This wasn't done under the cover of night, and someone would have seen something that points the finger at Ukraine for being responsible for this. I could see the motivation for them to put together a false flag attack, but I don't think that is the case here.

a reply to: voyger2

I was under the impression that the black boxes were handed over... Did I just make that up?