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originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People
originally posted by: Expat888
You fell for the fairytale the americans created ... dont worry your not alone 80% of the population is susceptible to brainwashing/propaganda ..
While I agree it is wrong to blindly believe things, what makes it less likely that the Russians are creating a fairy tale? Are they somehow unable to do such a thing?
That leaves us with looking at the raw facts, rather than believing versions of facts as the as presented by others (by both the U.S./EU and by the Russians). One raw fact we do know is that a few weeks earlier, pro-Russina separatists shot down a military cargo. Knowing this, then why would you think it is unlikely that the rebel could also shoot down this airliner (possibly confusing it with another military plane?
originally posted by: JRCrowley
a reply to: NoRulesAllowed
"The Absurdness of Conspiracy Theories"
You mean like this?
19 hijackers, devout religious fundamentalists who liked to drink alcohol, snort coc aine, and live with pink-haired strippers, managed to knock down 3 buildings with 2 planes in New York, while in Washington a pilot who couldn’t handle a single engine Cessna was able to fly a 757 in an 8,000 foot descending 270 degree corskscrew turn to come exactly level with the ground, hitting the Pentagon in the budget analyst office where DoD staffers were working on the mystery of the 2.3 trillion dollars that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld had announced “missing” from the Pentagon’s coffers in a press conference the day before, on September 10, 2001.
Like that one?
Ukraine rebel commander acknowledges fighters had BUK missile
.
Reuters By By Anton Zverev 32 minutes ago
By Anton Zverev
DONETSK Ukraine (Reuters) - A powerful Ukrainian rebel leader has confirmed that pro-Russian separatists had an anti-aircraft missile of the type Washington says was used to shoot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 and it could have originated in Russia.
In an interview with Reuters, Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Vostok Battalion, acknowledged for the first time since the airliner was brought down in eastern Ukraine on Thursday that the rebels did possess the BUK missile system and said it could have been sent back subsequently to remove proof of its presence.
Before the Malaysian plane was shot down, rebels had boasted of obtaining the BUK missiles, which can shoot down airliners at cruising height. But since the disaster the separatists' main group, the self-proclaimed People’s Republic of Donetsk, has repeatedly denied ever having possessed such weapons.
Since the airliner crashed with the loss of all 298 on board, the most contentious issue has been who fired the missile that brought the jet down in an area where government forces are fighting pro-Russian rebels.
news.yahoo.com...
"I knew that a BUK came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a BUK from Luhansk was coming under the flag of the LNR," he said, referring to the Luhansk People’s Republic, the main rebel group operating in Luhansk, one of two rebel provinces along with Donetsk, the province where the crash took place.
"That BUK I know about. I heard about it. I think they sent it back. Because I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence," Khodakovsky told Reuters on Tuesday.
"The question is this: Ukraine received timely evidence that the volunteers have this technology, through the fault of Russia. It not only did nothing to protect security, but provoked the use of this type of weapon against a plane that was flying with peaceful civilians," he said.
"They knew that this BUK existed; that the BUK was heading for Snezhnoye," he said, referring to a village 10 km (six miles) west of the crash site. "They knew that it would be deployed there, and provoked the use of this BUK by starting an air strike on a target they didn’t need, that their planes hadn’t touched for a week."
"And that day, they were intensively flying, and exactly at the moment of the shooting, at the moment the civilian plane flew overhead, they launched air strikes. Even if there was a BUK, and even if the BUK was used, Ukraine did everything to ensure that a civilian aircraft was shot down."
originally posted by: SkepticOverlord
a reply to: punkinworks10
Was just reading coverage of this elsewhere. To me, it looks more like a change in the narrative than one guy standing up.
Ukraine Rebel Commander Says Separatists Shot Down MH17 With A Buk Missile From Russia
"I knew that a BUK came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a BUK from Luhansk was coming under the flag of the LNR," he said, referring to the Luhansk People’s Republic, the main rebel group operating in Luhansk, one of two rebel provinces along with Donetsk, the province where the crash took place.
"That BUK I know about. I heard about it. I think they sent it back. Because I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence," Khodakovsky told Reuters on Tuesday.
"The question is this: Ukraine received timely evidence that the volunteers have this technology, through the fault of Russia. It not only did nothing to protect security, but provoked the use of this type of weapon against a plane that was flying with peaceful civilians," he said.
"They knew that this BUK existed; that the BUK was heading for Snezhnoye," he said, referring to a village 10 km (six miles) west of the crash site. "They knew that it would be deployed there, and provoked the use of this BUK by starting an air strike on a target they didn’t need, that their planes hadn’t touched for a week."
"And that day, they were intensively flying, and exactly at the moment of the shooting, at the moment the civilian plane flew overhead, they launched air strikes. Even if there was a BUK, and even if the BUK was used, Ukraine did everything to ensure that a civilian aircraft was shot down."
So now the narrative is that the Ukrainian government new the BUK was there, and provoked the missile launch on a 33,000 foot high civilian aircraft by flying low-altitude airstrikes.
originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People
originally posted by: Expat888
You fell for the fairytale the americans created ... dont worry your not alone 80% of the population is susceptible to brainwashing/propaganda ..
While I agree it is wrong to blindly believe things, what makes it less likely that the Russians are creating a fairy tale? Are they somehow unable to do such a thing?
That leaves us with looking at the raw facts, rather than believing versions of facts as the as presented by others (by both the U.S./EU and by the Russians). One raw fact we do know is that a few weeks earlier, pro-Russina separatists shot down a military cargo. Knowing this, then why would you think it is unlikely that the rebel could also shoot down this airliner (possibly confusing it with another military plane?
LOL
Simple the Cargo plane was WAY WAY WAY lower than the jetliner because the cargo plane was LANDING. It could have been shot down with shoulder fired weapons, hell it could have been shot down with unguided rpgs. The jetliner however was shot down at 33/32 thousand feet. That requires a much more advanced system. The difference between aiming at something and using advanced systems is why we KNOW it is unlikely that rebels could also shoot down an airliner.
originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Soylent Green Is People
The SA-11 is a scary system. Not because it's so effective, but because it was designed to be as simple to operate as possible, and even lacks an IFF system.
aviationweek.com...
originally posted by: whitepanther999
Last but not least, being Russian, i am affected by infowar, and honestly any of you would do the same.
Trying to get to the truth, using what i have - i think the opposite side have enough western media arguments, would not be of use for me to use them.
originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People
originally posted by: Expat888
You fell for the fairytale the americans created ... dont worry your not alone 80% of the population is susceptible to brainwashing/propaganda ..
While I agree it is wrong to blindly believe things, what makes it less likely that the Russians are creating a fairy tale? Are they somehow unable to do such a thing?
That leaves us with looking at the raw facts, rather than believing versions of facts as the as presented by others (by both the U.S./EU and by the Russians). One raw fact we do know is that a few weeks earlier, pro-Russina separatists shot down a military cargo. Knowing this, then why would you think it is unlikely that the rebel could also shoot down this airliner (possibly confusing it with another military plane?
LOL
Simple the Cargo plane was WAY WAY WAY lower than the jetliner because the cargo plane was LANDING. It could have been shot down with shoulder fired weapons, hell it could have been shot down with unguided rpgs. The jetliner however was shot down at 33/32 thousand feet. That requires a much more advanced system. The difference between aiming at something and using advanced systems is why we KNOW it is unlikely that rebels could also shoot down an airliner.