As Christians do we have to obey, without question?

a reply to: addygrace

most of the churches are affiliated with the world council of churches
(compromised)

the bible also goes on to explain "many of you will be put to trial", "the world will hate you for my sake", "do not love the world", "being tried in a furnace", and so on... so we know what we're in for, don't we?

but about "the law"
jesus said "render to caesar all that he is due, but render to God that which he is due"

in the chain of command, the CO or ranking officer carries the blame or responsibility
may as well just do what all authorities command (within reason, of course.. at some point the bible believer will have to say this far and no more..)

a reply to: addygrace

I don't believe that this Bible verse refers to 'Caeser' and secular government at all, but rather to our religious authorities!

To believe that these verses are referring to political Governments, means that we should've let Hitler, for instance, have his way.

A murderer has the power of life and death over his victim - does this mean that it is God-given? Or does it simply mean that the perpetrator is evil and has no conscience regarding life?

And IMO our allegiance should not be to false spiritual leaders either, for these are not the ones God would put in control of us.

a reply to: txinfidel

Ahhh ok. lots of fuss i have seen over the NIV and the way it describes things. I need to find and read a copy really, i tend to go for the older versions before the KJV.

a reply to: JokerThe1st

the bible is full of contradiction,truth,lies and misguided work

When it comes to God's instruction, there are no contradictions. There are detailed stories of men who resisted God's instruction to show the consequences. The bible is complete. There is no text missing. Aside from a few minor mistranslations and later altered manuscripts, the Bible is preserved.

a reply to: addygrace

but a Christian must not be submissive in instances where Gods laws are clearly violated.

Really? Like which of God's laws, for example? Do you think we have laws here in the US that force Christians to violate God's laws? Do you think that Christians should stop others from violating God's law?

As Christians do we have to obey, without question?

Obey who without question? Humans? No.
Obey when someone says God is talking through them? No.
Obey when God tells you to do something?
Sure, but He's gotta' prove that it's Him and that it's not just a delusion.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

hmm well i am afraid i have to disagree with you but that is my opinion and that is yours.
There are many versions of these same stories, some of which are much closer to the truth than The Book is, I must ask do you understand how the entire modern bible has come about?

It has been put together over years and years, it contained few books originally and as time went on more were added/removed, Unfortunately some of these additions and edits were not always with good intention.
These decisions have been made by men and written by men and as such will and do contain mistakes,deception etc....

Also do you speak Latin or Hebrew ? or Aramaic and so on ? if not as i do not then meaning has literally in many cases been ''Lost in Translation.''

a reply to: FlyersFan

i like the way your mind works
these passages might be interesting to someone who wants to get (closer) to the bottom of what you're saying there
(Rom 2:15 / Jer 31:33 / Heb 8:10 / 2 Cor 3:3 / Psa 40:8 / Luke 16:15)

Read the King James Version and you'll find no mention of government authorities and no arguments that they are to be blindly obeyed in Roman 13; the KGV talks about religious authorities and 'higher powers'. The version reads like a bastardised account of the KGV, which in turn was probably vastly different from the original books of the 3rd Century. I would find the changes made in the NIV bible to be unacceptable to be honest, they haven't just changed the book to sound more modern, they have added new words which alter the message.

If you're a Christian then yeah I guess you have to follow whatever they teach, you might have a hard time working out the specifics of what that is though, it probably depends on which variation of the Bible the local church has.

a reply to: JokerThe1st

Yes, I do understand how the modern translations came about, but its not a matter of opinion, its a matter of syllable metering.

www.brainout.net...

The masoretic text phonetically preserves the OT. Some of the vowel pronunciations may vary, but the retorical syllable pattern is there in the prophecies. The case is the same for the earliest greet NT manuscripts. They are metered with the same rhetorical pattern. All you have to do is count the syllables for authentication.

With that aside, syllable metering is not necessary in this case. Romans 13 demonstrates the same principle that Jesus lived by. The authorities falsely accused Jesus of violating the Law, and He willingly died for the benefit of His loved ones and the world. He could have run or He could have denied the accusations. He had multiple opportunities to escape judgment, but instead, He shook the political system with His obediance. It cost Him His life, but it left a lasting effect.

a reply to: addygrace
Reading that passage convinces me all the more that the entire book is control manual. It convinces me more and more that there is nothing in that book worth knowing and it needs to be thrown into the garbage.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Interesting site have bookmarked for another time

Have you heard of Gematria ?

a reply to: JokerThe1st

I know a little about Gematria, for example, David's name equals 14, which is a messianic number. David was the first king in the messianic bloodline. I dont know how to apply Gematria to the Bible in a systematic manor, at this point, Im counting syllables and anckoring the meter patterns to a historical timeline. Its very interesting, but not as easy as it sounds. To me, it proves that the text is "alive and powerfull". The meter predicted when the past prophecies would be fulfilled before hand. Sometimes it even offered alternative paths based on man's freewill.

originally posted by: th3dudeabides
a reply to: addygrace
Reading that passage convinces me all the more that the entire book is control manual. It convinces me more and more that there is nothing in that book worth knowing and it needs to be thrown into the garbage.

I'm sorry you feel that way. My original point was someone could take that passage in the Bible and make whole congregations submit, if one tried. In the end God wins out. Just reading one passage and throwing the whole Bible in the garbage doesn't sound very logical. Maybe start with the words of Jesus, that might change your mind.

1 Corinthians 16:14
Do everything in love.

a reply to: addygrace

This is a good example of the dangers of interpreting the bible literally. None of those verses in the OP have any merit or relevance to people living today, in MMXIV. Why should they? The nature of government and the concept of authority have evolved drastically in almost 2000 years. History provides numerous examples of people breaking the chains of tyrannical authority and subversive government. If I were to take the bible literally than successful rebellions against authority should never have succeeded because that authority was divinely ordained. The bible itself proves the Abrahamic god is not omnipotent or omniscience.

I am of the thought that all of the books in the bible were thoroughly examined, screened and edited of content that met with disapproval in the eyes of church fathers and emperors. There are many examples in history of this happening but that is besides the point and off topic. My point here is that the bible is expressing support for the hierarchy of government. Authority is the concept that gives all rulers their very existence. The church leaders did not want common people to get the idea in their head that they have the power to define their reality. Bad for control, bad for revenue, bad for their comfort & security. The lessons given to us by Jesus are simple; the teachings of the church are convoluted. That alone gives warnings.

In the end I agree with your points OP. I didn't intend to make a subjective reply but it happened. Authority should always be questioned. History proves that those with the power of authority will go to extreme measures to keep it. That cannot be divine guidance.

Romans 13:1-7 is crystal clear, with no ifs, and's or buts, if one believes that the bible is the word of God, one must accept the law given by Government and church authorities. Using alternative passages to nullify others, is an attempt to justify ones personal perspective.

Christians have a long history of fighting tptb and church hierarchy

Except that TPTB are mainly Christians?

a reply to: CB328

Oh really?!?

Nice avatar

a reply to: glend

Not really. It also says that you owe nothing to any man.

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:8

If the government is composed of men, then you owe them nothing but love.