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Why East-Ukraine Is Fighting So Hard For its Self-Determination…

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posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 02:12 PM
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Having pretty much confirmed (so be it by deduction) it was Kiev that murdered, no less than 298 passengers onboard flight MH-17 www.abovetopsecret.com...

I was asked by a respected opponent...

tsurfer2000h: And the Russian are any better, and where is the evidence they are so racist and violence proned.
Well... I found so much evidence of Ukraine’s provocations, against ethnic Russians, that it clearly merited an entirely new discussion (this topic, long-predates, anything to do with Flight MH-17). But its a long essay, so for shorter readers, you can skip to “List of 2014 Provocations”.

Firstly The Non-Domestic Politics…
The current crisis began with: The Western-backed, introduction, of an ideologically, anti-Russian, parliament. One that could easily make Russia’s use, of its gigantic navy base in Crimea highly unreliable, and which (if Russia were ever to lose total control of this base) would cost them military access to the Black Sea, as well virtually land-locking Russia’s gigantic naval fleet (long located there ever since Tsar times in fact) en.wikipedia.org...
Ukraine is also known to contain Europe’s 3rd largest gas reserves (at approximately 42 trillion feet) consortiumnews.com... the Black Sea itself is also rich with still unutilized deposits viableopposition.blogspot.co.uk... and the Black Sea (together with Crimea) is already vital to the economically efficient, transportation, of Russia’s existing oil & gas exports.

Therefore to lose Crimea hurts Russia both economically and militarily -and not in a small way either.

This context then makes Ukraine’s civil-war, extremely similar to Syria's war since: Aggressive U.S efforts (to both arm & finance the overthrow Assad by backing precisely the same kinds of religious fanatics, both U.S Demo-Rep political party's, still claim did 9/11) would (if ever those fanatics were successful in removing Assad) almost certainly cost Russia access to the various naval facilities, also located in Tartus (Syria).
If Russia were to lose these, then they would also lose most of Russia’s ability to place, a military presence, in the Middle East. It is obvious why the U.S & Allies would want this to happen: Today’s world may (on the surface) mostly operate through politics, but most international, political influence, still continues to be backed-up by a countries military force (just as unfortunately it has been, throughout all recorded history).
Likewise: It now becomes evident why it’s better for U.S (and allies) to have Syria in a condition of anarchy, than to have Syrian government functionally serving its it's people (but as a pro-Russian) country.

Ukraine's Domestic Tensions

Old History Meets New…
Before the collapse of the Soviet Union, large numbers of Russians were "encouraged" to move into Ukraine (particularly during Stalin’s time when that crazy despot, killed too many millions of Ukrainians, e.g. through the deliberate creation of a man-made famine to punish the Kulaks

By the end of 1933, nearly 25 percent of the population of the Ukraine, including three million children, had perished. The Kulaks as a class were destroyed and an entire nation of village farmers had been laid low. With his immediate objectives now achieved, Stalin allowed food distribution to resume inside the Ukraine and the famine subsided. However, political persecutions and further round-ups of 'enemies' continued unchecked in the years following the famine, interrupted only in June 1941 when Nazi troops stormed into the country. Hitler's troops, like all previous invaders, arrived in the Ukraine to rob the breadbasket of Europe and simply replaced one reign of terror with another. www.historyplace.com...
This partly explains, why many Ukrainians initially welcomed Hitler’s occupation, volunteered to fight for Hitler en.wikipedia.org... and even went on to man many of the Nazi gas chambers and other death camps.

The people went into the gas chamber without resistance. Those who were at the end, the Ukrainian guards had to push inside. I personally saw how the Ukrainians pushed the people with their rifle butts...
The gas chambers were closed for about thirty minutes. Then Schmidt stopped the gassing, and the two Ukrainians who were in the engine room opened the gas chambers from the other side. www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...
Hitler was politically impressed, but he personally always regarded them (because their ethnicity) as genetically inferior, human beings. Chances are he wouldn’t have used them at all, had he not lost so many troops.

Nevertheless: Nazi collaboration remains a source of huge pride, for many Ukrainians nationalists to this present day:

April 2014: Ukrainian nationalists in western Ukrainian city of Lviv have held a rally in commemoration of a Nazi SS division created in 1943, despite a ban asking them to stop.
One attendee said "This march is to commemorate the Galician division, which had nothing to do with the divisions of the Waffen SS. Their oath of allegiance was for Ukraine. They are our heroes and that is why we honour them every year." www.itv.com...


These provocations (towards the Russian populations because the Russians lost far more people, in number, to the Nazis, than even the Jews) neither only have the support of a handful of Ukrainian people, or are brand new occurrences…
2013 reporting here: www.foxnews.com...

These provocations: Are perpetually fueled, by the very community tensions they create.




posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 02:12 PM
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List of 2014 Provocations…
1. One of first things the present Ukrainian government did was to demolish historic statues, commemorating the Soviet soldiers who “liberated” Ukraine from Nazi occupation. 25 February 2014: Ukrainians keep pulling down Soviet statues. Now Russia is getting angry. www.washingtonpost.com...

I say “liberated” because the fact is most (non-Russian) Ukrainians were happy under Nazi occupation, and at the time believed they would continue to be so –this false reading of Hitler’s personal (racist) ideology is conveniently ignored by ethnic Ukrainian’s to this day.

Maybe if (the new & now present) Ukraine had simply just stuck to demolishing statutes of Soviet leaders, things wouldn’t have got so bad? But the fact is they didn’t: They demolished statues dedicated to Soviet soldiers and leaders with equal hate, and (of course in Ukraine) demolishing Soviet liberators is a very big political statement (indeed) about what it might think of Ukraine’s ethnic, Russian populations.

2. They beef up punishments on anyone holding dual-citizenship…

Up to 10yrs’ jail for dual citizenship: Ukrainian bill targets tens of thousands

A bill floating in Ukrainian parliament seeks tougher sanctions against holders of dual citizenship, which is forbidden in the country. Under the legislation, violators could be punished by a prison term of up to 10 years. rt.com...


3. Ukraine’s new government then (almost) passed a law banning Russian

28 Feb: Ukraine’s swift abolition of the law allowing the country’s regions to make Russian a second official language has worried European MPs and officials, and has been condemned outright as a “violation of ethnic minority rights” by Russian diplomats.
The European Parliament has approved a resolution on Ukraine, which among other things calls on the country’s MPs and the new government to respect the rights of minorities, particularly when it comes to the use of languages.


To Be Fair: The Ukrainian President ended up vetoing his own parliament over this very issue…

3rd March 2014: KIEV, March 3 (RIA Novosti) – Ukraine’s acting president Oleksandr Turchynov said Monday that he would not approve the parliament’s decision to repeal the 2012 law allowing more than one official language until there is legislation to replace it.
“Although the [2012] language law was unbalanced, I will not sign into law the parliament’s decision to repeal it until a new bill to protect all languages is passed,” he said.
Ukraine is split between the largely Ukrainian-speaking West and mostly Russian-speaking East, although many speak both or a mixture of the two known as “surzhyk.”
The parliament in Kiev voted last month to repeal the law that allowed regions to adopt more than one language for official purposes if they were spoken by at least 10 percent of the local population. For the Russian language, just under half of Ukrainian regions meet this standard.
The decision to revoke the law drew condemnation from Russia and sparked protests in several Russian-speaking Ukrainian regions. en.ria.ru...


But this is only because the liberation of Crimea by furious Putin had already began. It was also due to earlier international pressure from NATO countries

Feb 2014: The decision of the new Ukrainian authorities to repeal a law giving regional rights to minority languages is a bad move, said Luxembourg Foreign Minister Jean Asselborn. He also criticized a bill which would ban Russian media in Ukraine. rt.com...


4. Ukraine’s ban on anyone within Ukraine, being allowed to receive Russian broadcasts remains active.
The following BBC article likes to justify the ban by saying it’s because Russian TV portrays Kiev’s government as a bunch of Nazis 12/03/14: www.bbc.co.uk...
(As always) the Western media likes to claim anyone reporting, the inconvenient truth, is a liar. But eventually (even if it does take several months!) the truth often gets through…

Here the BBC explains how Kiev is employing foreign “White Power” warriors in their struggles against Ukraine’s (ethnically Russian) people.

16 July 2014: The appearance of far-right activists, both foreign and home-grown, among the Ukrainian volunteers fighting in east Ukraine is causing unease.
Mikael Skillt is a Swedish sniper, with seven years' experience in the Swedish Army and the Swedish National Guard. He is currently fighting with the Azov Battalion, a pro-Ukrainian volunteer armed group in eastern Ukraine. He is known to be dangerous to the rebels: reportedly there is a bounty of nearly $7,000 (£4,090; 5,150 euros) on his head. www.bbc.co.uk...
It’s not one lone guy from Sweden who is fighting them, but groups of Nazis & like-minded fascist

Anyone with an ounce of decency offered support in by Nazis should basically say sure: “Here’s a grenade, what I want you to do is to pull the pin, and not throw it!”

So: When you’re told by British-American “news” broadcast providers, that all claims Ukraine’s present government is full of Nazi sympathizers are “just Russian propaganda, based on gross exaggeration” you need only look a bit closer at the TV-Radio-Newspaper to see who the real propagandist actually is.

5. In Fact…

July 2014: UN rights watchdog confirms discrimination of Russian minority in Ukraine

UN Assistant Secretary-General for Human Rights Ivan Shimonovich has confirmed discrimination of Russian-language citizens in Ukraine, but told the United National Security Council on Wednesday that the instances were sporadic. Russia earlier criticized Shimonovich for turning a blind eye to murders, mass executions, tortures, abductions and assaults on journalists and rights activists, politically motivated incarcerations, appalling incidents of racist, anti-Russian and anti-Semitic nature that are perpetrated in the post-coup Ukraine with tacit approval from the regime.
Read more: voiceofrussia.com...


So that’s why they fight. That’s why Eastern Ukraine’s people don’t want to live under the present regime, its why they will fight hard to resist it, as well as avoid any compromise that might later be reversed (e.g. when a Russian leader not as patriotic, as todays Putin, fails to look).

There’s some more provocations (from this 5 month old, Ukrainian administration) but I better not list everything yet (or this OP would become even more oversized!) But facts can always oust lies. Let it be done...
edit on 090705 by Liberal1984 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 02:31 PM
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East Ulraine has really not been fighting all that hard. Considering the amount of weapons and "volunteers" that have been flowing over the Russian border vs the relative weakness of Ukraines military units in the area, it would seem most of the population is more interested in just staying out of it while Russia and Ukraine fight it out over the area. The rebels shoot down of Malaysian airliner is turning into a debacle with their ill though out attempt to cover it up. A simple yes we made a mistake and will fully cooperate but, it is a warzone and not much would have come of it. Instead they have handled it in the worst way possible. Granted Russia is already isolated and deeply distrusted by most of the world so it is not its reputation can get any worse. Still if the rebels continue to mishandle this it may just be enough for somebody to start suppling Ukraine with some real aid. And that would be a disaster for Russia who would be forced to commit even more volunteers since local ones are not interested.
edit on 20-7-2014 by MrSpad because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 02:43 PM
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Graphic content !

Graphic content !


Where the plane was shot down in the area there lives peaceful farmers ! They have nothing to do with the crash or politics between Ukraine and Pro-Russians, they just want to live there in peace while those two other parties keep fighting.
Drunken and badly behaving separatists hardly present whole area of people. JMHO.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 02:44 PM
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Gee, our original lamestream media stories about this months ago stated that the native Ukrainians were rising up against their government because they wanted to get into the European Union and their government was saying no.

Probably the craziest reason for an uprising that I have ever heard....a bunch of people screaming to buy tickets on the Titanic, with full knowledge that it is already sinking as they are fighting for room on the deck.

Now it has become something else entirely.....very interesting......



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 03:10 PM
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a reply to: Liberal1984

You are RIGHT on the money OP. You are spot on with damn near every single thing you said. East Ukrainians are simply doing what they must to survive this oppression coming for them.


Do not be too harsh on those members who will undoubtedly be here soon - they will attempt to debunk you with nothing but articles from MSNBC. There is nothing we can do for these members - they are completely brainwashed by the western media and will remain so. The amount of brainwashing taking place in the West is downright terrifying. At least Russians know to look at RT with skepticism.

Your average american looks to MSNBC or FOX as if they were the Messiah himself. Therein lies the problem. Brainwashing is rampant and it is new to the West so it works here. The East has dealt with propaganda for decades and decades so they know how to sift through it. I only wish your average Western citizen had the willpower to question what the media tells them.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 03:54 PM
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MrSpad:The rebels shoot down of Malaysian airliner is turning into a debacle with their ill though out attempt to cover it up.
The ill-thought attempt to cover up MH-17 (that's at least known about) was when "Ukrainian State Security" published a badly edited video (which according to on-screen times within video, include the use of backwards in time travel!) www.bbc.co.uk... in order to make it appear more likely, the resistance did do it (so be it accidentally).
When (in actual fact) all Ukraine confirmed by publishing this very video, was prove the rebels were actually appalled at a civilian aircraft being shoot down.

See 10 unanswered questions: www.abovetopsecret.com...
See Kiev's previous false flag: www.theguardian.com...
If not Kiev, then consider mercenaries (or “The Academy” as they're now called). Who knows? But it's less likely the rebels, ever since Ukraine published, their 117 second video (with 5 major edits and all!)

Interesting Foreign Policy Developments

Mr Spud: Still if the rebels continue to mishandle this it may just be enough for somebody to start suppling Ukraine with some real aid.
Ah... You mean just like Syria? I.e. where two groups of foreign powers, finance and arm two warring sides so that:
No matter how many civilians get killed, no matter how much their own country gets destroyed... They'll always more weapons to continue fighting with? You could become Obama's "Humanitarian adviser"!


Mr Spud: And that would be a disaster for Russia who would be forced to commit even more volunteers since local ones are not interested.
Not really... Russia is a powerful nation, and this conflict is a mere side show, it's simply a symptom of U.S planning becoming ridiculously ambitious.

What would be a disaster is if they lost Crimea, but this conflict would then probably go nuclear, and everybody knows where this leads: Either absolute Russian victory, or no victory for no-one (including America).

Till then: Russia will not starve, they will not run out of weaponry, or money from either their businesses, or industrial exports. Most of all with Putin's political popularity having just recently reached an all time high www.gallup.com...
And with their actually being a relationship between him being popular as a leader, and Russia suffering economically by opposing the West see chart: cdn.static-economist.com...
So: Russia's political establishment knows it has nothing to fear from Western responses be them sanctions or military (as it only seems to bolster their already enviable support back home).

Yet the loss of influence-control that Britain and America experience by pushing Russia towards e.g. an expansion in Chinese trade, does represent a permanent reduction in our influence. It's serves nobody -and yet won't change Russia political actions (not unless it could e.g. actually force their polling downwards!).
edit on 090705 by Liberal1984 because: Shortened

edit on 090705 by Liberal1984 because: Shortened



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 04:09 PM
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How about this? The native Ukrainians want to part of Russia because Russia under Stalin treated them brutally including trying to starve them all to death in the midst of the richest farmland in that area of the world. Russia is only interested in that region for the farmland and the Crimean port. That there is any fighting going on now is due to the numbers of ethnic Russians who were settled in Ukraine before the breakup of the old Soviet Union in order to help pacify the region and recolonize it. This was a tactic employed all over the old USSR with ethnic groups being removed from their native lands to be resettled elsewhere in order to try to break up their native loyalties and re-cement them to the USSR.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 04:42 PM
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Great job. S&F. Very informative.

The part about Ukraine making dual citizenship illegal; Do any of Ukraines politicians hold dual citizenship?



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 05:25 PM
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Russia's adventures in its former republics have never eneded well in particular to the people living in those nations. It is always the same formula find a small group of people who want to seperate. Send in arms, advisors, and masses of propaganda. Fighting breaks out. Russia secures a small strategic chunk of a country. Lots of people die and people in new Russian satellite go on to live even more misrable lives than the ones they had before. Russia desperation to try and keep these states in its sphere of influence is doomed to failure. When the Warsaw pact fell and the Soviet Union broke up a certain numbers of nations left Russia sphere and joined the West. The other remained with Russia.

Now two decades later the nations that went with Russia are full of internal strife that is fermented and exploited by Russia to try and keep those nations in line. They remain poor, isolated, strife filled and face Russian military action anytime the stray to far away.

The nations that went with West are peaceful, have economies that expanded massively over the last two decades, trade globally, and have no fear of outside military intervention.

So of course all the states that went with Russia want out. To do so they must face Russian threats, proxy wars and sometimes even invasion.

You can only keep states loyal to by threat of force for so long. As soon as they see weakness they make moves. It is only a matter of time. Russia will have to change or become an international pariah.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 07:32 PM
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Mr Spud It is always the same formula find a small group of people who want to seperate. Send in arms, advisors, and masses of propaganda. Fighting breaks out. Russia secures a small strategic chunk of a country.
Actually Russia has no intention of repeating what it once did in Afghanistan (and which America also copied there, and in Iraq) which is called “occupying a people who don’t wish to be occupied”.
Russia’s interest is routed to those people who wish to be Russian.

Because: Just as there isn’t money or wealth (for America or indeed any country today) in ruling over those who reject their ruler, the same logic applies against Ukraine’s present attempts to win over Eastern Ukraine by force.

It didn’t always used to be this way: Once upon a time, there were vast differences in war technology, and this enabled European Empires to create profits out of ruling the rest of the world –nearly always against its will.

Imagine If…
Putin was to ignore the maltreatment of Russians in Ukraine, and so cut off all assistance (be this from government or in some cases civilians) then perhaps Kiev could rule over East Ukraine a little longer? But so be it at a very bloody price. Kiev’s ideological contempt for Russian stock, was always going to ignite big trouble.

War would have been avoided (if instead of trying to bolster their cheap, domestic, support from stupid nationalists i.e. by deliberately provoking ethnic Russians) Kiev had instead offered friendship. But too late now…
War has started, and with it: Crimes on both sides…

Neither side is going to run out of armaments or foreign money anytime soon. But eventually it will be realized the only way this war finishes is when self-determination is allowed to run its natural course. I don’t see this being a short wait, and concur it’s a disaster for all Ukraine.

But equally it’s only a side show for America & Russia. America’s been making trouble (e.g. by dreaming in artful fantasy, it could close Russia’s bases in both Crimea & Syria) but the Russian bear has woken up, and is now growling back.

And whatever America does, it does nothing to not reduce Putin’s domestic support. There’s going to be no recession, and even if there was… Russians will turn to their own TV screens to find out who the enemy is.

True enough: Billionaires carry weight in Russia, but Russian billionaires understand they have enough wealth to live comfortably without getting on the wrong side of Putin.

Furthermore: Russia (as in public, politicians & millionaires) understand that if Russia did allow itself to quietly surrender e.g. Assad’s Syria, in exchange for resumption in trade, then it may as well bow to all other Western demands too –after all surely we need only threaten sanctions again?

So it’s the world of craziness to think anything like that will happen. As for America & Britain: We’re feeling strong again, so are on the offensive. Costly though this (little) dispute with Russia may be, it’s not like it’s going to cost any political leader here, their election prospects, either.

But Russia can actually be quite annoying in other ways (more than I care to list) but a most potent way being arms exports to other countries –especially whenever we’d rather they didn’t possess sophisticated equipment.

Who said the Cold War was over? Someone’s clearly screwed that peace up!!
edit on 090705 by Liberal1984 because: Missed word.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 09:43 PM
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originally posted by: Liberal1984

Mr Spud It is always the same formula find a small group of people who want to seperate. Send in arms, advisors, and masses of propaganda. Fighting breaks out. Russia secures a small strategic chunk of a country.
Actually Russia has no intention of repeating what it once did in Afghanistan (and which America also copied there, and in Iraq) which is called “occupying a people who don’t wish to be occupied”.
Russia’s interest is routed to those people who wish to be Russian.

Because: Just as there isn’t money or wealth (for America or indeed any country today) in ruling over those who reject their ruler, the same logic applies against Ukraine’s present attempts to win over Eastern Ukraine by force.

It didn’t always used to be this way: Once upon a time, there were vast differences in war technology, and this enabled European Empires to create profits out of ruling the rest of the world –nearly always against its will.

Imagine If…
Putin was to ignore the maltreatment of Russians in Ukraine, and so cut off all assistance (be this from government or in some cases civilians) then perhaps Kiev could rule over East Ukraine a little longer? But so be it at a very bloody price. Kiev’s ideological contempt for Russian stock, was always going to ignite big trouble.

War would have been avoided (if instead of trying to bolster their cheap, domestic, support from stupid nationalists i.e. by deliberately provoking ethnic Russians) Kiev had instead offered friendship. But too late now…
War has started, and with it: Crimes on both sides…

Neither side is going to run out of armaments or foreign money anytime soon. But eventually it will be realized the only way this war finishes is when self-determination is allowed to run its natural course. I don’t see this being a short wait, and concur it’s a disaster for all Ukraine.

But equally it’s only a side show for America & Russia. America’s been making trouble (e.g. by dreaming in artful fantasy, it could close Russia’s bases in both Crimea & Syria) but the Russian bear has woken up, and is now growling back.

And whatever America does, it does nothing to not reduce Putin’s domestic support. There’s going to be no recession, and even if there was… Russians will turn to their own TV screens to find out who the enemy is.

True enough: Billionaires carry weight in Russia, but Russian billionaires understand they have enough wealth to live comfortably without getting on the wrong side of Putin.

Furthermore: Russia (as in public, politicians & millionaires) understand that if Russia did allow itself to quietly surrender e.g. Assad’s Syria, in exchange for resumption in trade, then it may as well bow to all other Western demands too –after all surely we need only threaten sanctions again?

So it’s the world of craziness to think anything like that will happen. As for America & Britain: We’re feeling strong again, so are on the offensive. Costly though this (little) dispute with Russia may be, it’s not like it’s going to cost any political leader here, their election prospects, either.

But Russia can actually be quite annoying in other ways (more than I care to list) but a most potent way being arms exports to other countries –especially whenever we’d rather they didn’t possess sophisticated equipment.

Who said the Cold War was over? Someone’s clearly screwed that peace up!!



Please lets drop the helping people who want to be Russian BS. A large chunk of southern Russia has been fighting not to be Russia. And the only time Russia suddenly wants to help Russians in other countries that want to be Russian is when the nation tries to escape out of Russia's grasp. Nobody was asking to get out of Ukraine in the Crimea or in the East until Russian forces and their puppets in the area decided it was time. Just like when the Hungerians and Czechs both tried to escape Soviet domination, Russia continues to try and use force to keep what it sees as its satellites in line.

And what is with this fantasy the the US is

dreaming in artful fantasy, it could close Russia’s bases in both Crimea & Syria
is that suppose to be a joke? The Russian "base" in Syria is a single working pier (the other is broken down and nobodt has bothered to fix it over the years) and a supply room with grand total staff of 4 people. It is just like the US supply pier in Brazil. And as for Russian Naval bases in Crimea? It does not matter where the Russians part their old navy in the Black Sea so long as NATO controls the straights those ship have to sit in port of be sunk.

The simple thing of course to look at the nations the went with West and those that stuck with Russia and how they have faired since the end of the Cold War. Why would anyone want to stick with the Russians?



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 10:35 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Sounds like they took a page from our playbook. We did it to the natives here for years till they had no will left to fight with.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 10:49 PM
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originally posted by: MrSpad
East Ulraine has really not been fighting all that hard. Considering the amount of weapons and "volunteers" that have been flowing over the Russian border vs the relative weakness of Ukraines military units in the area, it would seem most of the population is more interested in just staying out of it while Russia and Ukraine fight it out over the area. The rebels shoot down of Malaysian airliner is turning into a debacle with their ill though out attempt to cover it up. A simple yes we made a mistake and will fully cooperate but, it is a warzone and not much would have come of it. Instead they have handled it in the worst way possible. Granted Russia is already isolated and deeply distrusted by most of the world so it is not its reputation can get any worse. Still if the rebels continue to mishandle this it may just be enough for somebody to start suppling Ukraine with some real aid. And that would be a disaster for Russia who would be forced to commit even more volunteers since local ones are not interested.



can you provide any link to your comment that Russia is already isolated and deeply distrusted by MOST OF THE WORLD. I think it is time to stop using 'Most of The World', 'International Community', 'Free World' and other overused
therms and call it the what it really is, US&EU. Please stop using word World.
I am not even going to ask to provide evidence that rebels shot down the airliner.



posted on Jul, 21 2014 @ 12:56 PM
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Mr Spud: Please lets drop the helping people who want to be Russian BS. A large chunk of southern Russia has been fighting not to be Russia.
There’s a significant difference between fighting to stop people who are already part of your country, leaving your country (i.e. Chechnya) and fighting to make people who don’t wish to be part of your country, part of your country. Nowhere is Russia doing this last one.
The significance is a country like Poland is completely safe under Russian policy. Nor will their policy change given Poland is already part of NATO and so would probably (if there were pressing need for it) be supplied e.g. with its own nuclear weapons, long before any Russian army could invade its territory (merely for the sake of conquering its territory). Consequently there will be no such invading Russian army in the first place (and consequently, just as much absence of need for the West to violate the non-proliferation).

Understanding the Chechen Conflict…
It’s a fact Chechnya’s war never rewarded Moscow with any profit (this falls under that “virtual rule” I was explaining earlier: How (in the 21st century) it is not a profitable to rule over a people, who violently resist you.

But (just like today’s limited U.S sanctions against Russia) this fact is as about relevant as water over an umbrella. Fortunately this irrelevance is only due to a particularity of Russian politics…
What’s relevant is that both Russia’s political establishment (and its people) have long grown tired of repeating the process, that led to the collapse of their Soviet Union…

Nor is Chechnya a normal situation either: The people most personally concerned with wanting independence for Chechnya, and therefore also most willing to fight hard for it where… (surprise, surprise) its Islamic extremists.

This doesn’t ignore the fact there were also many secular Chechen’s, who just wanted their independence. But…
It does mean (that had Russia just let Chechnya go its own way) it would probably not have been long till Islamic extremists, do what they have already done to literally every single Muslim country, in this world (partially barring Turkey) which is politically destabilise it.
There is a reason why Turkey is the only Muslim country that remotely resembles a functional democracy, and even then (in Turkey) it has taken decades of political instability: I.e. secular military dictatorships, and counter revolutions, to get to today.

Ukraine…

Mr Spud: Nobody was asking to get out of Ukraine in the Crimea or in the East until Russian forces and their puppets in the area decided it was time.
That’s not true. (As already explained) there’s long been, significant tensions, between East Ukraine (and ethnic Russians generally) with other Ukrainians.
The only thing that suddenly changed was when Putin decided it was time to provide Russians, with Russian military assistance (once the West had made the first hostility, by causing the installation of this anti-Russian, government).

The Allies would have been wiser simply backing an anti-Russia (as opposed to also anti-Russian) government. Unfortunately this wasn’t really an option because as explained: (in Ukrainian politics) being anti-Russia and anti-Russian, are much too close, together.

Syria

Mr Spud: is that suppose to be a joke? The Russian "base" in Syria is a single working pier (the other is broken down and nobodt has bothered to fix it over the years) and a supply room with grand total staff of 4 people.
Sorry for over-simplifying Syria’s situation. It’s not simply that Russia actually has several military facilities in Syria, but far more significant that Assad’s government is allied to Iran, and Russia, and close to China.

Another big consideration is how the Syrian government spends its own money (i.e. generally on the Syrian people, for the sake of buying itself political stability), However this is almost a crime in Western foreign policy (the ideal country is one like Saudi Arabia which “invests” nearly all its oil money in U.S government bonds). Hence they feel rich, but the end result is also that most U.S dollars that leave the U.S for Saudi oil, come back to the U.S. as U.S government debt –which they can expand indefinitely, providing countries like Saudi will “play ball” by unquestionably buying government bonds).

Syria has never been a big exporter, but Assad is not allied to the West’s friends –and that’s why he’s a “bad” leader that needs to go (unlike say the Saudis who still execute homosexuals, they’re “respectable”!).

The Syrian Comparison Is…
That Putin (a long time ago) basically stuck a stick the in mud and said: “This is Russia, and under my leadership, Russia will no longer decay into a smaller world power”.

A reasonable enough position (given Russia’s various losses since 1987). But it is in fact (because of these very losses) that Putin’s position is not merely a reasonable one, but also one that’s both economically affordable (so be it, if it still becomes costly), and a very rich position politically.

In Addition: Not only will Putin intend it to be continued by any successor (but quite independently to himself) the basic Russian political maths is: It is not clever for any successor to Putin, to ever surrender his position.
So: The policy is here to stay.

Black Sea…

Mr Spud: It does not matter where the Russians part their old navy in the Black Sea so long as NATO controls the straights those ship have to sit in port of be sunk.
The Black Sea is totally land locked, and Russia dominates all. Yes countries like Georgia have 3 miles of sea from their shores, but this doesn’t exactly configure as a comparable match.

In any case: What’s even more important about Russia continuing to control the Black Sea is its geographic position (in respect to exporting Russia’s present exports) together with the oil & gas reserves likely to be most significant in value.



posted on Jul, 21 2014 @ 12:57 PM
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Ukraine: Really Wise?

Mr Spud: The simple thing of course to look at the nations the went with West and those that stuck with Russia and how they have faired since the end of the Cold War. Why would anyone want to stick with the Russians?
Because people aren’t primarily motivated by economics. What can worry Russian Ukrainian’s even more that, is a government that’s e.g. supported by people who commemorate those died fighting for the Nazis (precisely because they died fighting ethnic Russians!).

Furthermore: The Ukrainian position isn’t as economically clear as you might think. Even the anti-Russian, BBC, says this…

Consider this: Ukraine's economy is smaller than it was in 1992, shortly after the collapse of the Soviet Union. At the time, Ukraine and Poland had similar-sized economies, but Poland's economy is now twice as big as Ukraine's.
The IMF estimates that the Ukrainian economy shrank 0.3% last year after barely growing in 2012.
Ukraine has a lot of coal mining, especially around the eastern city of Donetsk, as well as ageing heavy industry including shipbuilding, steel and arms. However, because many industries are so energy-inefficient, they are highly dependent on imports of Russian gas, which have been heavily subsidised. www.bbc.co.uk...


Europe’s Catch 22…
1. Since Ukraine became an anti-Russian government (in February 2014) Moscow has not only quit selling its oil & gas below market value, but now demands more (“legally justified” because Ukraine does in fact owe over 4 billion dollars).

Russia raises gas prices for Ukraine by 80 percent uk.reuters.com...


2. The only reason why Russia continues to send (its enemy Ukraine) any gas at all, is because (if it does not) then Ukraine will deliberately disrupt the piped flow of Russian gas across Ukrainian territory towards the European Union (just like it did last time 2009: www.theguardian.com... ).

3. This lands Russia, Ukraine and the EU in a very interesting position: If the EU hurts itself by placing sanctions on Russian gas imports (as the U.S would love the European Union to do as of 5 hours ago: www.reuters.com... ) then Russia has precisely nothing to lose by cutting of Ukrainian gas completely.

If that happened: Then all Ukraine has to sustain itself by, is its own agriculture (which as agricultural technology has advanced, employees even less people, than it used to). If this happens then think 70-90% total unemployment under Ukraine’s new found political “freedom” as “trickledown economics” takes effect.

This means the Ukrainian government will have to go begging for even more foreign loans –because it did not receive them, then it would go back to Russia’s fold (for sure).

Consequently: The EU and Western world will probably give Ukraine its loans, just without there being (literally) ever an end in sight to this lending activity –at least not for about 5 years, such will the economic devastation upon Ukraine be, and even then… more money still will probably be required.
In order to obtain these loans the Ukrainian politicians will need to make sure that when the EU, or America asks them to jump… they respond with “How high?” So much for their political & economic freedom!

Meanwhile: Russia knows that the Ukrainian people (short of being fully subsidised by the West) will experience such a slump in their already poor living standards, that they would (as a whole) by virtually begging for the return, of a pro-Russian government. This will not exactly fill Western loan lenders with confidence that their money would ever be repaid!

The End Result of All This Is…
That the European Union will never cut off its imports of Russian gas. It’s not merely the cost of importing gas from elsewhere, the way this would raise gas world prices any way, and therefore go at least some way towards meeting Russia’s own costs of export Gas outside the EU (whilst the EU simultaneously imports from outside Russia!)

It’s that the EU does not wish be saddled with a Ukraine with no economy, total dependence on both loans and humanitarian aid, and which is likely to return to Russia’s fold anyway (sooner rather than later due to said situation).

But
The result of this current “half way house” is that Putin can literally laugh in the Kremlin, at America’s attempts to isolate Russia. Sure they’ll harm Russia’s economy (a little bit) but he as a political leader has something way more important to consider: The opinion polls behind him.
In addition: This slow Western-European isolation of Russia, can strongly be argued, to be “a blessing in disguise” for Russia: If you’re European you may want to get yourself off any addiction to Russian gas, but if you’re Russian you might want to get yourself off the addiction to EU-American trade (at least which they can actually take hostage –unlike say… the valuable EU gas supply!!!)

Meanwhile: The flow of Russian gas to Ukraine (sort of) continues. But they’ll have to pay for what they buy, and consequently the economy of this (presently) anti-Russian government will never flourish –not at least without a good ten years gone by.

Obama: You’ve made a dogs dinner! Putin is far more deserving of your “Nobel” “Peace” Prize (not least to mention probably a special one for “geopolitics”).
edit on 090705 by Liberal1984 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2014 @ 09:09 PM
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a reply to: Liberal1984
explanation of who the Kiev Junta fights in a video Ukie army soldeir captured and taken care of by Militia hospital
www.youtube.com...
how to get the USA to mind their own business? anyone have any idea how to let the world know about the media silence and worse lies.



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