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Palestine is a Sovereign State, and has the right to defend itself against Israel

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posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 09:13 AM
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Palestine is a Sovereign State, and has the right to defend itself against Israel



We hear Israel so declare that it is defending itself, and its sovereignty, from Palestinian rockets; but many do not know that the state of Palestine is merely attempting to protect itself, and defend its sovereignty, from Israeli occupation and oppression. Palestine is a sovereign (but occupied) state, and as such, holds the same rights to defend itself as Israel.

While it is true that there are differing opinions as to whether Palestine is a state, it is quite obvious that as of this year, it has fulfilled the minimum criteria (under multiple theories) required for becoming an independent country.

The Constitutive theory of statehood stipulates that a state can only be so, if another recognises it (en.wikipedia.org...). The state of Palestine has been recognised by the majority of member-states of the United Nations. This was done so during November of 2012, where 138 states voted to declare Palestine a 'non-member state' of the UN:


The 193-nation U.N. General Assembly on Thursday overwhelmingly approved the de facto recognition of a sovereign Palestinian state after Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas called on the world body to issue its long overdue "birth certificate."

There were 138 votes in favor, nine against and 41 abstentions. Three countries did not take part in the vote to upgrade the Palestinian Authority's observer status at the United Nations to "non-member state" from "entity."


www.reuters.com...

There are other criteria of which a state must meet, in order to be considered so. Such criteria falls under the declarative theory of statehood, which was formalised in the 1933 Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States. The Montevideo Conventions declares that a state can only be sovereign if it meets the following criteria:

1 - A government

2 - A defined territory

3 - A permanent population

4 - The ability to conduct foreign relations with other states

definitions.uslegal.com...
en.wikipedia.org...

Indeed, Palestine fulfills all of the above requirements, as set out by the declarative theory of statehood:

Does Palestine have a government?

Yes. Until recently, Palestine was at odds in that Hamas ruled Gaza, and Fatah, the West Bank. On June 2nd 2014, however, Hamas and Fatah formed a unity government, placing the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, under the control of a unified entity. The first in many years.


A new Palestinian unity government has been sworn in, marking a key step towards ending a major rift between factions in the West Bank and Gaza.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas hailed the event, saying "a black page in history has been turned forever".

The two sides had governed separately since Hamas, which won elections in 2006, ousted Fatah from Gaza in 2007.

...

The new government comprises 17 politically independent ministers and must organise elections to be held within six months.

It is headed by incumbent Palestinian Prime Minister Rami Hamdallah.


www.bbc.com...

Does Palestine have a defined territory?

Yes. While much of the territory claimed by Palestine is occupied Israel, the land of which Palestine does retain control of, is defined. Additionally, Much of the occupied territories are considered illegal by the United Nations. Indeed, the territory of any Palestinian state, as a result of a two-state solution, would be based on the pre-1967 borders.


1. Affirms that the status of the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, remains one of military occupation, and affirms, in accordance with the rules and principles of international law and relevant resolutions of the United Nations, including Security Council resolutions, that the Palestinian people have the right to self-determination and to sovereignty over their territory and that Israel, the occupying Power, has only the duties and obligations of an occupying Power under the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949 and the Regulations annexed to the Hague Convention respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, of 1907;

2. Expresses its determination to contribute to the achievement of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and the attainment of a just and comprehensive negotiated peace settlement in the Middle East resulting in two viable, sovereign and independent States, Israel and Palestine, based on the pre-1967 borders and living side by side in peace and security.

unispal.un.org...

The continuing settlements in the West Bank are seen as illegal by the international community, also.


Israel rejects the interpretation of the convention applying it to Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, stating that those territories were captured in 1967 as a result of a defensive war against countries which had illegally occupied them since 1948. However, a 1999 resolution was unanimously passed stating that the Fourth Geneva Convention does apply to Israeli settlements in the "occupied territories."

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

Does Palestine have a permanent population?

Yes.

The population of Gaza, as of 2014, is estimated to be around 1.816 million people.
The population of the West Bank, as of 2014, is estimated to be around 2.731 million people.

www.cia.gov...
www.cia.gov...

Does Palestine have the ability to conduct foreign relations with other states?

Yes. As noted above, Palestine is a non-member observer state of the UN, and as such, is able to enter into foreign relations with other states. Additionally, representatives of Palestine have represented the state at foreign meetings. The latest example may be seen in the current crisis facing Gaza, where Hamas members have formally entered into negotiations with Egypt and Israel.

As can be seen above, Palestine does indeed qualify as a sovereign state under international law. Considering Palestine a sovereign state, is to also bestow upon it the rights of a state. As a state, it has the right to self-defence against foreign aggression.
edit on 20-7-2014 by daaskapital because: sp




posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 09:13 AM
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Indeed, the UN states in article 51 that:


Article 51: Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of collective or individual self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by members in exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.


This leaves Palestine in an interesting position, as it is not a full member of the United Nations. Regardless of its status as a member state of the UN, it too, has the right to self-defence. As stated by Christopher Greenwood:


Although Arts 2 (4) and 51 UN Charter are couched in terms of the rights and obligations of members of the UN, it is now generally accepted that, in almost all respects, they reflect rules of customary international law which are equally applicable to all States, irrespective of whether they are Members of the UN. An exception is the procedural provision in Art. 51 UN Charter, which requires that States report to the Security Council measures taken in self-defence. This provision was considered by the International Court of Justice (ICJ) as an innovation (see para. 31 below) which had not yet brought about a change in the customary international law on self-defence (Nicaragua Case paras 200 and 235).



It is generally considered that, for a resort to force to constitute a lawful exercise of the right of self-defence, it must meet the following conditions:
1. i) it must be a response to an armed attack;
2. ii) the use of force, and the degree of force used, must be necessary and proportionate; and
3. iii) it must be reported to the Security Council and must cease when the Security Council has taken ‘measures necessary to maintain international peace and security’.

goo.gl...

As above, it is obvious that Palestine, as an observer state of the UN, is able to act in self-defence to any armed aggression. Additionally, as a state with occupied territories, it may fall under the 1970 Resolution A/RES/2649(XXV) , as set out by the UN general assembly. In it, the assembly states:


Emphasizing the importance of the universal realization of the right of peoples to self-determination and of the speedy granting of independence to colonial countries and peoples for the effective guarantee and observance of human rights,


Concerned that many peoples are still denied the right to self-determination and are still subject to colonial and alien domination


1. Affirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples under colonial and alien domination recognized as being entitled to the right of self-determination to restore to themselves that right by any means at their disposal;

2. Recognizes the right of peoples under colonial and alien domination in the legitimate exercise of their right to self-determination to seek and receive all kinds of moral and material assistance, in accordance with the resolutions of the United Nations and the spirit of the Charter of the United Nations;

3. Calls upon all Governments that deny the right to self-determination of peoples under colonial and alien domination to recognize and observe that right in accordance with the relevant international instruments and the principles and spirit of the Charter;

4. Considers that the acquisition and retention of territory in contravention of the right of the people of that territory to self-determination is inadmissible and a gross violation of the Charter;

5. Condemns those Governments that deny the right to self-determination of peoples recognized as being entitled to it, especially of the peoples of southern Africa and Palestine…

Emphasis mine.

unispal.un.org...

As set out by the UN general assembly above, even though in some instances, Palestine is not acting in self-defence, it has a right to achieve self-determination, purely because it is under occupation by Israel. I quote again:


1. Affirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples under colonial and alien domination recognized as being entitled to the right of self-determination to restore to themselves that right by any means at their disposal…


Overall, while Israel claims to be acting in self-defence, it is failing to uphold international standards. This can be seen in that Israel:

1 – Uses unreasonable force against Palestinian aggressors, while claiming to be acting in ‘self-defence’.
2 – Denies Palestinians the right to self-determination.
3 – Continues to illegally occupy Palestinian territories, of which was agreed to be the land of a sovereign Palestine.
4 – Continues to be an aggressor, going so far as to invade and assault the sovereign land of another, thus constituting an act of war.

While Israel does legitimately act in self-defence, at times, it also clearly violates international law, and the sovereign territories of another state. Palestine is a sovereign state, and can exercise the same powers as Israel in regards to international law, and self-defence.

- Daas.

edit on 20-7-2014 by daaskapital because: sp



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 09:59 AM
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I agree that Palestine is a sovereign country. However, Israel has been attacked from within Palestine. Hamas is causing all the grief from within Palestine. So I would think that Hamas has gotten the go ahead from Palestine to launch those rockets into Israel. Or Hamas decided on their own they would launch the rockets without Palestine approval. Hamas is using humans as shields. Which is the most cowardly thing a militant organization can do.
So what is Israel suppose to do? Just sit there and get shelled? No they have to defend themselves.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 10:02 AM
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You need to quit using academia for defining what a state is.

It really doesn't matter what the definition in Webster's Dictionary says.

What defines a state is a group of people who are strong enough to stick their flag in the ground and defend it.

That is qualifies you as a state, nothing else is relevant. Jumping up in the air and waving a silly piece of paper around does not afford you Statehood.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 10:07 AM
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a reply to: daaskapital

Actually thats part of the problem, they wont allow Palestine to re-establish its internationally recognized borders.

If you dont have borders, you dont have a nation, without a nation theres no sovereignty, without sovereignty you cant claim any State rights...



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 10:12 AM
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originally posted by: Ceeker63
I agree that Palestine is a sovereign country. However, Israel has been attacked from within Palestine. Hamas is causing all the grief from within Palestine. So I would think that Hamas has gotten the go ahead from Palestine to launch those rockets into Israel. Or Hamas decided on their own they would launch the rockets without Palestine approval. Hamas is using humans as shields. Which is the most cowardly thing a militant organization can do.
So what is Israel suppose to do? Just sit there and get shelled? No they have to defend themselves.


The Palestinians, under international law, have the "right of self-determination to restore to themselves that right by any means at their disposal…" Sure, this can be interpreted pretty broadly. But if rockets are at their disposal, why can't they use them as an oppressed people? After all, they are allowed to gain self-determination by any means.

That said, i would also argue that Israel is not acting in lawful self-defence by bombarding Gaza and sending in troops. As defined in my posts above: if a state uses disproportionate force against an aggressor, than they are not acting in lawful self-defence. I will also point you to this thread by OpiniionatedB, who explains the circumstances of Israel being an occupier, and the law in regards to such a title:

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 10:13 AM
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originally posted by: Senators
You need to quit using academia for defining what a state is.

It really doesn't matter what the definition in Webster's Dictionary says.

What defines a state is a group of people who are strong enough to stick their flag in the ground and defend it.

That is qualifies you as a state, nothing else is relevant. Jumping up in the air and waving a silly piece of paper around does not afford you Statehood.


Academia is better than going off your personal opinion...



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 10:17 AM
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originally posted by: gladtobehere
a reply to: daaskapital

Actually thats part of the problem, they wont allow Palestine to re-establish its internationally recognized borders.

If you dont have borders, you dont have a nation, without a nation theres no sovereignty, without sovereignty you cant claim any State rights...





They still retain defined borders though (Gaza, and defined parts of the West Bank). It is just that some of their land is currently, and illegally, occupied. The UN has pretty much accepted the sovereignty of Palestine, and has also called the Israeli settlements illegal.

I would still argue that Palestine is a sovereign state, based off what i have presented.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 10:17 AM
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originally posted by: daaskapital

originally posted by: Senators
You need to quit using academia for defining what a state is.

It really doesn't matter what the definition in Webster's Dictionary says.

What defines a state is a group of people who are strong enough to stick their flag in the ground and defend it.

That is qualifies you as a state, nothing else is relevant. Jumping up in the air and waving a silly piece of paper around does not afford you Statehood.


Academia is better than going off your personal opinion...



It is not personal opinion, it is a fact.

Nations that cannot defend themselves, either politically or militarily, will fall.

That is what happens.

Palestine cannot do either because of their inept leadership and unwillingness to unite as a people and fight for their nation. Instead, their plan is to create mass casualties among their populace and play the sympathy card but the problem is that nobody actually likes the Palestinians, even their Arab neighbors cannot stand them.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 10:22 AM
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originally posted by: Senators

originally posted by: daaskapital

originally posted by: Senators
You need to quit using academia for defining what a state is.

It really doesn't matter what the definition in Webster's Dictionary says.

What defines a state is a group of people who are strong enough to stick their flag in the ground and defend it.

That is qualifies you as a state, nothing else is relevant. Jumping up in the air and waving a silly piece of paper around does not afford you Statehood.


Academia is better than going off your personal opinion...



It is not personal opinion, it is a fact.

Nations that cannot defend themselves, either politically or militarily, will fall.

That is what happens.

Palestine cannot do either because of their inept leadership and unwillingness to unite as a people and fight for their nation. Instead, their plan is to create mass casualties among their populace and play the sympathy card but the problem is that nobody actually likes the Palestinians, even their Arab neighbors cannot stand them.



You claim all of this, yet you provide no evidence.

Yes, a nation needs those essential requirements to successfully defend itself. That said, what i have presented, shows that Palestine is indeed a state, if under partial occupation. The UN has granted Palestine 'non-member observer state' status, and allows it to go by the title of 'state of Palestine' in formal proceedings.

Palestine is a sovereign state.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 10:29 AM
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a reply to: daaskapital

On paper sure, but is the UN stepping up to defend Palestine?

They will not be a state for long if nobody helps them and they cannot defend their nation by themselves.

That is just a fact.

You can whine all day that they are a sovereign nation because of this agreement or that but at the end of the day, a piece of paper doesn't do anything to ensure your Statehood.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 10:40 AM
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originally posted by: Senators
a reply to: daaskapital

On paper sure, but is the UN stepping up to defend Palestine?

They will not be a state for long if nobody helps them and they cannot defend their nation by themselves.

That is just a fact.

You can whine all day that they are a sovereign nation because of this agreement or that but at the end of the day, a piece of paper doesn't do anything to ensure your Statehood.


I don't even know why we're arguing, lol. I agree that Palestine has to defend itself in order to remain a state, but what Israel is currently doing, does not constitute lawful self-defence, as they claim. Personally, i'm sick of both sides.

Israel should abide by the UN, and hand over all occupied territory and settlements, and Hamas should drop the violence against Israeli, and Palestinian civilians. They should also revise their charter in order to accept the existence of a Jewish state. Unfortunately, the UN doesn't seem to enjoy taking an active role in these things, and so long as the UN doesn't properly step in to mediate a final resolution, nothing will ever be resolved.
edit on 20-7-2014 by daaskapital because: sp



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 10:44 AM
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a reply to: daaskapital
Its only a soverighn state until israel goes in and has a buster call on hamas leadership and abbas. Take away one part of the definition it then becomes not a nation yet again. The only reason They were granted observer state status was the majority of nations in the UN are not western leaning.

ALso most nations arounf them do not like them from observable instances. Such as egypt closing its border to them and jordan cutting off water to them.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 10:49 AM
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a reply to: Senators

Your argument is that since they can't defend themselves, and because Israel hates them, and their Arab neighbors hate them, that they don't have a right to exist?

Palestine is a sovereign state. Israel is an illegal state, formed by terrorists. Now the thieves want their victims exterminated.

Palestinians should be getting help from many of their neighboring countries, the UN, and the USA. Instead, the USA gives money and weapons to Israel and Ukraine. It seems the US government is always on the evil side these days. Hoefully, countries will come together and help the Palestinians through money and weapons so that they can protect themselves.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 10:56 AM
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So we have a sovereign state that close to 40 nations dont even recognise,has no capital,no President or Prime Minister,40 per cent unemployment,no constitution,no rule of law,no passports,virtually no-one experienced in civil and popular administration,no budget,no financial management,no coherent internal security apparatus...sorry you aint got ****.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 11:04 AM
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a reply to: daaskapital

We are not arguing, simply discussing.

The best solution would be for one side or the other to ultimately dominate without question. If the Arab nations would back Palestine then Israel wouldn't be able to push into Gaza. Palestine is not making any attempts to consolidate support on a political or military level.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 11:15 AM
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originally posted by: Senators

originally posted by: daaskapital

originally posted by: Senators
You need to quit using academia for defining what a state is.

It really doesn't matter what the definition in Webster's Dictionary says.

What defines a state is a group of people who are strong enough to stick their flag in the ground and defend it.

That is qualifies you as a state, nothing else is relevant. Jumping up in the air and waving a silly piece of paper around does not afford you Statehood.


Academia is better than going off your personal opinion...



It is not personal opinion, it is a fact.

Nations that cannot defend themselves, either politically or militarily, will fall.

That is what happens.

Palestine cannot do either because of their inept leadership and unwillingness to unite as a people and fight for their nation. Instead, their plan is to create mass casualties among their populace and play the sympathy card but the problem is that nobody actually likes the Palestinians, even their Arab neighbors cannot stand them.


Lemme help abit here..

Palestine cannot do either because of the cash and bombs flowing into israel to prop up the genocide, rape and theft of a once free people. Instead, the israeli card is to be the eternal victim and exploit a small blip on the screen 2/3rds of a century back. But the problem is that everybody actually likes the Palestinians, but their Arab neighbors have been paid off generously to turn a blind eye, they also by doing this avoid the hammer of the worlds most powerful military.
Those who doubt this may look to...
Afghanistan
Iraq
Libya
Do I really need to name them all, this is more than a coincidence, this is a definite pattern.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 11:20 AM
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originally posted by: Ceeker63
I agree that Palestine is a sovereign country. However, Israel has been attacked from within Palestine. Hamas is causing all the grief from within Palestine. So I would think that Hamas has gotten the go ahead from Palestine to launch those rockets into Israel. Or Hamas decided on their own they would launch the rockets without Palestine approval. Hamas is using humans as shields. Which is the most cowardly thing a militant organization can do.
So what is Israel suppose to do? Just sit there and get shelled? No they have to defend themselves.


Did the US government get the go-ahead from US Citizens to attack Libya, Syria, manipulate the Ukraine, run CIA operations to get Saddam to invade Kuwait? By your suggestions, you just justified if and why the US SHOULD be under attack. The blade cuts both ways.

Cheers - Dave
edit on 7/20.2014 by bobs_uruncle because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 11:36 AM
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a reply to: bobs_uruncle
Well they are welcome to try to attack the US if they feel froggy. please do try to do such a action. I am sure our allies and everyone the US likes would love to test out these new wonder weapons we have that made the chinese and russian ambassadors go white as ghost when they visited.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 11:55 AM
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a reply to: daaskapitalThe solution then is to run all the Palestinians off the land and then it is all sovereign Israel...Problem solved...




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