No, Israel Does Not Have the Right to Self-Defense In International Law Against Occupied Palestinian

a reply to: th3dudeabides

I'm a Semite, so they cannot very well call me an anti-semite.

But your very right in your summation. We need to call a crime what it is, no matter who it is committing it.

a reply to: MALBOSIA

Congrats your no better than Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or by your own definition Israel..

So in your mind where should Israel be moved to, what nation will be forced to give up lands to them.. who will be displaced in favor of them... or should we just fire up the ovens again?

It doesn't matter if you think the UN screwed up giving them land there, they are there so unless you are advocating genocide sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming they don't belong there accomplished jack and squat.

Get the foreign interests out, get Hamas out and let the people decide how to proceed and I bet you would see both sides settling in as neighbors pretty quickly.

a reply to: Irishhaf

I believe that the people of Palestine will give Hamas the boot if they had quality of life and assurances thereof. That I do sincerely believe.

Such a low quality of life is the fuel which feeds Hamas.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

I agree with you, ultimately every group of people on this planet want to be able to raise their children safely and to be able to provide for them.

Yet so many people now a days are stuck on stupid concerning this conflict... either siding with Israel or Palestine, both sides are manipulated by foreign interests, for more years than I can conveniently count Jews and Muslims lived peacefully side by side all across the middle east.

I have seen nothing that tells me it wouldn't be possible again, but until the west gets off the oil kick it wont happen... its in the rest of the worlds best interest for the middle east to stay a powder keg, makes it easier to force changes that help the west.

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
Such a low quality of life is the fuel which feeds Hamas.

That's the crux of the matter. If there was peace then Hamas would be irrelevant. It is Hamas' interest to keep firing rockets into Israel, secure in the knowledge Israel will eventually react. Violence begets violence.

Israel needs to bite their tongue and stop being provoked. It is easy for me to say as I am not being shot at regularly by Hamas, but that's the challenge Israel must confront.

Regards

a reply to: Irishhaf

Israel does not have to be moved anywhere. Dissolve them. The criminal occupants have the entire globe to chose where to live including staying where they are. The flag is all that needs changing. The star of David can remain on church walls or hanging from peoples necks. It has no place, however, representing the majority of the region that is not Jewish. If some Jews want to concentrate themselves into a sole nation they should have thought of that 100 years ago when such behaviour was not considered so unacceptable as it is today.

Israel acts like barbarians. Their citizens are being raised to be barbarians. It is like they are TRYING to destroy themselves, but claiming their actions give them some benefit. How. Israelis lost thier humanity. "Not wishing that on my worst enemy" is not even in their play book. Israel would do ANYTHING to their enemies. They have no sole and no humanity but they think they can stand up and cla8m they are the most civilized. Science and human nature cam explain why Arabs in that region HATE Israel so much. What can explain Israel's lack of respect for ALL human life. Not Jewish. Israeli political figure calling Palestinian children "little snakes"??? That would be the end of her career here in the CIVILIZED world.

a reply to: MALBOSIA

Israelis have no soul and no humanity... you are being exactly what you accuse them of being, the vast majority of both people would even today happily live in peace with each other, and yet you want to paint them all as savages.

Yet the minority in both camps wants to keep conflict going by painting the other side in one broad brush stroke, till you break the cycle of hate and violence it will never stop.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: MALBOSIA

Israelis have no soul and no humanity... you are being exactly what you accuse them of being, the vast majority of both people would even today happily live in peace with each other, and yet you want to paint them all as savages.

Yet the minority in both camps wants to keep conflict going by painting the other side in one broad brush stroke, till you break the cycle of hate and violence it will never stop.

The brush that has paint different from Israel is the one for the millions of Jews that will not leave their Arab majority nations not even when bribed by Israel that relies on foreign aid but can still manage finance the PURCHASE of it's "loyal" citizens.

I try hard to understand this problem from all angles I read posts like this, watch documentary footage and news reports from both sides of the argument. At the end of the day I can only say that it seems Jews have been persecuted forever and in watching their actions here I must assume they fully understand why!

a reply to: pennydrops

Gaza is a urban area that is 5 miles wide and 20 miles long with a population of 1.6 Million People.

The Gaza Strip was once part of Egypt, and was created by Egypt as a place to dump the Palestinians. Palestinians are the "unwanted" of the Middle East. Palestinians have been throw out of just about every country in the region. They've been thrown out of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt because they cause nothing by trouble.

In Egypt they (Palestinians) caused nothing but trouble so the Egyptians round them up and forced them in to Gaza. And after the Yom Kippor War in the 1970s which was an attack by Egypt and Syria upon Israel, Egypt lost Gaza and the Sinai Peninsula after getting their asses handed to them by the Israelis.

The Rockets being fired from Gaza are being stored in residential areas. A large number of homes have "rocket rooms" in which people are paid to store Hamas rockets. They also store rockets in schools, hospitals and just about every place that by the "International Rules of War" that are to be weapons free. Hell the main Command Bunker for Hamas in under the Largest Hospital in Gaza which is a big no no.

Hamas use the people of Gaza to protect its rockets, if they know an airstrike is going to hit an area they will put people in the target area and use them as human shields because they know the Israelis will not attack a target crawling with civilians. Say what you will about the Israelis they go out of their way to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible, they even go so far as to call a home (that has a rocket room) and warn the residents that they will bomb that house in 5 minutes. This gives the residents just enough time to run like hell and live.

Urban Fighting is the worst kind of fighting its bloody, messy, and up close and personal. A Gaza is one big urban area with 1.6 million people that have no where to run to avoid the fighting hence Israel only attack the Gaza strip in sections giving the people a chance to move to the other end of the strip.

Its a cluster flop all the way around but I blame Hamas, no rockets = no military invasion.

a reply to: JBRiddle

So we essentially have a war between two tribes nobody wants to have around.

This will be my first, last, and only post in this thread.

It saddens me. It makes me sad to see so many tout "international law", only because they think it supports them in this instance, whereas they condemn that same law when it suits them to, when they can't find a way to make it support their premise. They don't want "law", international or otherwise, they want to have it their way, a middle-eastern Burger King "solution".

It saddens me to see people claiming "logic" only when the argument supports their emotional reaction, and is devoid of "logic" or legal reasoning. Those same people go on to make entirely illogical arguments, secure in the knowledge that it will be perceived as "logical" by the emotion-driven masses.

I had considered making my one, single, yearly thread on the topic, and calling it "The UN, International Law, and You", and explaining how international law actually works, but was made to understand that there is no point in doing so. The emotion-driven masses will continue to believe what they want, in the face of actual "logic", and will ignore what they don't want to hear, simply shouting down reason (and "law", when it suite them to) in favor of emotion.

Making the thread would be an exercise in futility. Why bother, when no one wants to really know, since they have their beliefs to replace certain knowledge with?

It saddens me, perhaps most of all, because this mindset will NEVER reach a solution to the problem. The only "solution" visible on either side is to continue to ignore law - while simultaneously claiming to support it, and selectively cite it only when it suits their fancy! - and keep the fighting and violence-inciting rhetoric going until one side or the other finally gets their Burger King "solution", and has it their way.

There are gonna be a lot of dead civilian carcasses, on both sides, on the way to that "solution".

YAY EMOTION!

a reply to: Irishhaf

a reply to: paraphi

I'm replying to both of you since it is a basic concern, and would change much in Israel and Gaza. During the 5 hour ceasefire that both Hamas and Israel agreed to, three rockets were shot into Israel.

Hamas denies doing that. IF they are telling the truth, Hamas, and the Palestinian and Israeli people have a very big problem on their hands - and it will likely change the course of events for all of them. Because if they are really telling the truth, they have a problem with ISIS. Hamas said there was an ISIS presence in Gaza, and that they were working on giving them the boot, however, I do wonder now if ISIS is a presence that Hamas is too weak to prevent.

I like you, have seen Jews and Muslims live peacefully side by side, and see no reason why that cannot be had even here. However, this would put a new twist in things, hopefully Hamas isn't that weak, but next to the very well funded ISIS as of late, they may very well be.

It's just a thought, no proof of it other hints of it three weeks ago.... but the breaking of a ceasefire that Hamas denied, does make you wonder.

Perhaps this is what the haters on both sides wanted though.... a way to keep the fighting going strong. ISIS would certainly ensure that.

Anyone can claim anyone has "rights" for this or that, but the REALITY of the situation, is anyone is free to do anything they want to do; So long as they are willing to deal with the consequences, whatever they may be.

Since there doesn't seem to be much in terms of consequences, I don't think they're really worried about who says what.

It's simple to understand really, Israel doesn't want the Palestine's there so they are doing away with them. It's war. You think people are "fair" and honor "rights" in war? No. They cheat, manipulate, scratch, and bite; Anything they can do to achieve victory.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

I hadn't heard that ISIS had a presence in Gaza... that scares the crap out of me, never thought I would root for Hamas but... in this case Ill take the devil I know over the alternative.

originally posted by: g146541

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Heck the don't really even need to deflect them. They aren't powerful enough to get far enough into any populated area for goodness sake. It's more like the annoying fly....

These "military grade rockets" are seldom more than a crude pipe bomb attached to an improvised Estes propulsion system, they also almost never do any damage.
I was under the belief that was what our 4 billion a year donation to israel was for that and the iron dome.

The smaller of the Qassam rockets are roughly the equivalent to the HVAR rockets carried by U.S. aircraft in WWII and Korea.

While crude by modern standards they are still deadly weapons of war.

That Israel seems to have perfected an effective defense doesn't make indiscriminately firing unguided munitions towards major population centers any less horrible.

Denying Hamas the raw materials to develop these types of weapons is also the primary reason behind the Gaza blockade.

I can't help but think that one day the rest of the world is going to tell the Israelis to take another good long walk in the desert to think about it.

Bottom line....how many of the Palestinian deaths have been shown to be terrorists firing rockets?
How many of these 'selected' targets claimed by the Israelis have shown that there were any kind of rocket launchers in their hit zones eh?

No evidence from the Israelis at all that they bombed their 'suspect' Palestinian launch sites....not one.......ever!

Israel Grants First Golan Heights Oil Drilling licence To Dick Cheney-Linked Company

Israel has granted a U.S. company the first licence to explore for oil and gas in the occupied Golan Heights, John Reed of the Financial Times reports.
A local subsidiary of the New York-listed company Genie Energy — which is advised by former vice president Dick Cheney and whose shareholders include Jacob Rothschild and Rupert Murdoch — will now have exclusive rights to a 153-square mile radius in the southern part of the Golan Heights.

www.businessinsider.com.au...

As to Gaza......There's a whole heap of oil under the Gaza strip too...recently found....quelle suprise!
I'll try and find the link

a reply to: angelchemuel

O. M. G.

Omg. I am currently reading Jeremy Scahill's "Blackwater" - and learning that Cheney and friends (besides being the people behind the initial invasion of Iraq) are also backers of the ECT (Evangelicals and Catholics Together) that Blackwater is part of.



Dirty Wars ..... Scahill's book that I first read. Now, I'm reading about Blackwater. SCARY STUFF.

I'm in shock. Sorry - more later if anyone's interested.