Where did the metal clasps go?

Metal Clasps

Ancient megalithic cultures from all over the world used metal clasps to bind their stones together - but where are the metal clasps today? I initially thought that people over the ages had pillaged them, but then I understood that even new finds buried deep in the earth were also missing the metal bindings between rocks.

I'm starting to suspect that the structures are so old that the metals have corroded away over the millennia’s; but just how long does it take for metal like copper to completely vanish? And, is it possible to date the megalithic sites to a minimum age by calculating the metal clasp's corrosion time?

If the metal clamps indeed have corroded away over time, then the megalithic structures should be very old - here is some science about copper corrision to back up my claim:

The belief by knowledgeable engineers, architects, and water utility personnel that copper is not adversely affected by the majority of soils worldwide is well founded ... Many of the underground copper pipes used to convey water in Egypt nearly 5000 years ago are still in existence.

Source

Using the copper tube findings from the Ancient Egyptian First Dynasty, then it is safe to deduct that the megalithic sites are vastly older than 5,000 years as no trace of copper metal clamps has been found.

-MM

a reply to: MerkabaMeditation
Probably the same place the cap stones and antennas went.

a reply to: MerkabaMeditation

If you're trying to say that these structures are so old that the copper has corroded away, where is the evidence of ancient copper smelting?

And also..

but then I understood that even new finds buried deep in the earth were also missing the metal bindings between rocks.

Quite the leap of logic there, you dont know who stumbled upon these structures, or when, they could have been dug up a hundred years ago and you wouldn't even know it unless it was documented.

Most likely they were taken to be reused after a structure is abandoned or destroyed.

Metal back in those days was a much needed resource and very expensive and hard work to produce. leave it behind to rot. Na..

The fasteners were not necessarily copper , or even metal ...

A fastener was then inserted across the two stones, linking them. In many cases in the Mediterranean world, the fastener (clamp) was made of metal. One of the reasons you see ruins now with ‘bites’ out of the ancient blocks is that the metal was valuable, and people would destroy the corners of the stones to dig the metal out. But here in Armenia, it had been speculated that wood was used as the fastener. And now—there is evidence! We found wood in situ in the swallow-tail holes.

egafagan.com...

originally posted by: engvbany
The fasteners were not necessarily copper , or even metal ...

A fastener was then inserted across the two stones, linking them. In many cases in the Mediterranean world, the fastener (clamp) was made of metal. One of the reasons you see ruins now with ‘bites’ out of the ancient blocks is that the metal was valuable, and people would destroy the corners of the stones to dig the metal out. But here in Armenia, it had been speculated that wood was used as the fastener. And now—there is evidence! We found wood in situ in the swallow-tail holes.

egafagan.com...

I can imagine that wood was used as clamps between smaller stones, but not between megalithic stones weighing tens or even hundreds of tonnes - wood would just not be strong enough for such a task.

-MM

originally posted by: engvbany
The fasteners were not necessarily copper , or even metal ...

A fastener was then inserted across the two stones, linking them. In many cases in the Mediterranean world, the fastener (clamp) was made of metal. One of the reasons you see ruins now with ‘bites’ out of the ancient blocks is that the metal was valuable, and people would destroy the corners of the stones to dig the metal out. But here in Armenia, it had been speculated that wood was used as the fastener. And now—there is evidence! We found wood in situ in the swallow-tail holes.

egafagan.com...

Now that is interesting, wooden ones, I didn't known that but it makes sense if you didn't have or didn't want to use expensive metal.

a reply to: MerkabaMeditation

Doesn't work like that. A few metal ties have been found in situ plus most stone work, but not all, can be associated with a culture and that culture often have materials that can be dated.

One easy way to date is to find the metal smelting centers usually their are pottery and other remains associated with those structures.

er what if they where gold for decoration purposes then the egyptions came along and melted it all for silly sphinxes

originally posted by: Hanslune
a reply to: MerkabaMeditation
A few metal ties have been found in situ

Cool, do you have a link that you could share?

-MM

Well along comes this guy and says"which idiot left all this metal about. I'll have that and make a dagger or spear point or something". It's quite logical really. Use and re-use and re-use again.

originally posted by: MerkabaMeditation

originally posted by: Hanslune
a reply to: MerkabaMeditation
A few metal ties have been found in situ

Cool, do you have a link that you could share?

-MM

Here is a link to book that discusses the various metal clamps found at South American sites

It is from the book; Prehistoric Bronze in South America, Volume 12, Part 2, By Charles Williams Mead

Link

From Cuzco, in the high central plateau region, sixteen objects, all but one of which contain tin, the average being 5.50 percent. From Bolivia seventy-two analyses showing that fifty-nine of the objects are of bronze, averaging 6.24 percent of tin. Of the seventeen specimens from Tiahuanaco twelve are of bronze, averaging 6.50 percent of tin. The other five, which contain no tin are the clamps used to hold the stones of the buildings together. Adrien de Mor- tillet 1 gives the analyses of six objects from Tiahuanaco. Two of these are clamps, and have not a trace of tin, while the other four pieces are bronze, averaging 6.56 percent of tin.

A second cite from: Ancient Greek Architects at Work: Problems of Structure and Design, By J. J. Coulton


2nd Link

There are newer cites but the few I could find were all hiding behind annoying pay walls.

No they were certainly pillaged before they were even buried under the dirt/sand.

Think about lead roofing materials on churches today, they get ripped off by thieves and the churches are still very much functioning.

These would have been ripped out either while "active" or just after and that's still thousands upon thousands of years ago.

a reply to: Biigs

As noted in my post above clamps have been recovered at a number of sites, the one Iinked are from Tiwanaku.

originally posted by: Hanslune
a reply to: Biigs

As noted in my post above clamps have been recovered at a number of sites, the one Iinked are from Tiwanaku.

Interesting. I only knew of clamps found at the Pantheon, in Greece and in India.

What does the bronze with no tin in it tell us? That it was made by another civilization? Pure metals tells me that they were highly knowledgable in metallurgy.

-MM

originally posted by: jazz10
a reply to: MerkabaMeditation
Probably the same place the cap stones and antennas went.

And where is that, please share? The Vatican's secret library? The Smithsonian museum's secret vaults?

-MM

a reply to: MerkabaMeditation

Is it not possible that they used wood not metal?
Ooops, someone beat me to it lol

These are found in nearly all ancient cultures - Iran/Persia, Angor Wat, China (Yuan Dynasty, Ming Dynasty), Greece, Egypt, Peru, Aztec, Maya, the Levant... cultures that developed ashlar masonry developed very similar tools and techniques for it. Diffusion surely played a great role in spreading this particular technique, but others developed it independently. It's a common sense solution to a problem that masons encountered.

originally posted by: MerkabaMeditation

originally posted by: Hanslune
a reply to: Biigs

As noted in my post above clamps have been recovered at a number of sites, the one Iinked are from Tiwanaku.

Interesting. I only knew of clamps found at the Pantheon, in Greece and in India.

What does the bronze with no tin in it tell us? That it was made by another civilization? Pure metals tells me that they were highly knowledgable in metallurgy.

-MM

Bronze can be made with arsenic and other additives, the word bronze means an' alloy of copper' with x, tin and arsenic being the most common but you can use silver, gold, bismuth, etc. Copper mixed with zinc is called brass but is technically a bronze too.

originally posted by: AlphaHawk
a reply to: MerkabaMeditation

If you're trying to say that these structures are so old that the copper has corroded away, where is the evidence of ancient copper smelting?

Right here.

Harte