Research: Possibility that Wind Turbine Farms, Solar Panel farms, and Large Green Projects to Genera

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
a reply to: Mianeye

So you think that overall the anthropogenic forcing of such projects don't exacerbate the migratory problems that we have been observing on birds, fish, and mammals like dolphins and whales? Plus the negative effects that anthropogenic electromagnetic disturbances have on the eating, and mating habits that all those animals and insects do with the help of their magnetoreception/electroreception abilities?

While I do know that the fact that we exist and are using technology will affect in some ways, and no matter what we do, many animals and insects. These anthropogenic electromagnetic disturbances which will continue to increase can have a much larger impact than all the anthropogenic disasters we have seen so far, such as oil spills.

how many more times can you use the word anthropogenic? (btw spell check does not know what it means)

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Wind farms have to be built in rural areas because of the space needed

As do transformer stations and have you ever noticed that those massive power towers are always in lower populated areas? You admit both create em fields but the transformer stations have the additional toxic chemical factor yet you seek to demonize solar and wind... you say the solution is to stop adding to the problem by creating more solar and wind farms.

Do you see the logic failure there? If they both do the same thing but one has a less toxic factor shouldn't we be seeking to SWITCH to the less toxic one? Not to mention the added benefit of less fracking, less mountaintop removal, less coal soot, less pipeline leaks and ruptures...

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

You claim my post are off topic and not full of any substance yet all you do is make bogus claims, add lengthy quotes that do not prove anyting and then try to attack anyone who disagrees with you. Not science and your 'theory' that wind farms are very bad for the environment holds no weight.

Wind Farms are a great way to produce power and it is much better for the environment than burning fuel. This is obvious.

It is also obvious that you have an agenda you are pushing. All your posts have one common theme, science denial!

a reply to: Kali74

Because this thread is about so called green energy power sources that have been deemed as environmentally friendly when they are not...

Why the hell is it ok to constantly bash at other energy sources, which yes do have negative impacts yet when evidence is provided that so called "green energy sources" proves they are NOT environmentally friendly IMMEDIATELY people like you, jrod, etc want to make this a thread about other energy sources which have been discussed PLENTY OF TIMES and you want to derail the thread?... Why do you, jrod, and the other members who keep on trying to derail the thread want to give excuse, after excuse to energy sources like wind power despite the hazards they have?

How about staying within the topic?

originally posted by: Kali74
...

Do you see the logic failure there? If they both do the same thing but one has a less toxic factor shouldn't we be seeking to SWITCH to the less toxic one? Not to mention the added benefit of less fracking, less mountaintop removal, less coal soot, less pipeline leaks and ruptures...

How is it more environmentally friendly to introduce more and more wind farms which constantly are generating sound pollution that constantly are negatively affecting the health of humans, animals and even insects like honeybees?

What do you think will happen as eventually animals and insects that use magnetoreception and/or electroreception won't be able to use their biological abilities to migrate, breed, or find food sources?

Are cell phones, and cell phone towers also detrimental to people and animals? Of course, but wind turbines generate more power than cell phone towers. Notice the upside down lightning generated by wind turbines. Cell phones and cell towers can't do that.

Notice how in one of my responses in this thread I mentioned how these issues should be address, and I will tell you something else. You can't stop wind turbines from producing low frequency sounds, and infrasound. You simply can't, at least with the technology at our disposal.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

I'll try this one more time... If wind farms produce as much em and 'noise' 'hum' as traditional power plants do why do you advocate against the one that doesn't require coal and the one that can reduce dependence on oil and nuclear?

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

I'll try this one more time... If wind farms produce as much em and 'noise' 'hum' as traditional power plants do why do you advocate against the one that doesn't require coal and the one that can reduce dependence on oil and nuclear?

First of all, did you miss some of the energy power sources I mentioned that should not only be researched more as alternative power sources, but some of them could even be used right now?...

Second, electric power plants do generate a humming, but traditional power plants do not generate the low frequency sound and infrasound that wind turbines generate. And again, why are you willing to give it a green light? Because wind farms have been branded green despite the evidence that contradicts these claims?

I have already mentioned, more than once... that yes there are many problems with other power sources such as oil, but AGAIN why are you willing to give a green light to wind farms when they have the capability of driving several species of animals and insects into extinction?...

Do you not understand that the problems reported by people of "wind turbine syndrome" is real, and not only does it have very adverse health effects on humans but also on animals and insects?...

You want to talk about the problems caused by OTHER power sources? There are many OTHER threads about them. I was one of the people saying since day one when Fukushima happened that they should have cemented over the reactors, and also posted videos of Michu Kaku stating how grave the situation is but guess what?...This thread is not about nuclear plants... I have also participated on threads about oil spills and posted how I know from experience that there are company men who would rather skip safety measures and because of this many problems have occurred, including accidents. I was one of the many members who was against the use of corexit and that it was an attempt to hide the truth of the situation. But guess what?... This thread is not about oil either... So could you please stay within the topic of this thread?...

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Let use a little common sense here. The positives aspects of wind generators far outweigh the negative factors. Some of the stuff that you are claiming about the LF noise from wind gens has little actual scientific basis. One lone PHD means nothing, and most of your claims have little if any actual scientific basis. Let's not forget that cell phone towers transmit RF, wind turbines do NOT.

The bottom line is producing electricity via wind turbines is a much better alternative to burning fossil fuels.

BTW, although there are many measures people can take to minimize noise from manmade sources, these measures do not deter infrasound. You can seal your home doors, install glazed or double glazed windows, etc, etc and still infrasound will affect you even when you don't hear noise. Infrasound is below the threshold of hearing most people have, but even when most people can't detect infrasound, it is still affecting you. Infrasound can travel through water, the ground, and other solid objects with little to no attenuation.

Wind turbine infrasound screws up ovulation (Denmark)

Mark Duchamp, Chairman, World Council for Nature (7/10/14)

The Danish press reports the case of a garden centre (nursery) going out of business because of nearby wind turbines. Headaches are frequent among employees, and female workers complain of unusual bleeding and problems with their menstrual cycles. They are worried that more serious illnesses may follow. Five have recently resigned. The owner is now closing his business for fear of being held liable should a child be born with deformities, as happened to numerous mink puppies at a fur farm near wind turbines in Jutland.1
...
He is discussing with his lawyer whether to sue Vattenfal, the company that owns the wind turbines, or the Municipality of Holbaek, which approved their installation 400-700 metres from his nursery. He expects to go to court and seek damages of several million krones.

“Himself a neighbour to 127-metre high wind turbines since their installation three years ago, Boye Jensen has long been convinced that low frequency noise emitted by the turbines makes people ill, as they do animals.”2 Then, recently, he heard the tragic news from Kaj Bank Olesen’s mink farms.1 This, along with the resignation of several of his employees for health reasons, made him realise his business had become untenable because of the wind turbines. “The nursery owner made this hard decision after a mink breeder in Jutland was able to establish a causal link between the loss of a third of his mink puppies, deformed or stillborn, and several giant wind turbines erected nearby.”2
...
The World Council for Nature (WCFN) is calling attention to the fact that, as occurred for tobacco, asbestos, thalidomide, etc., governments are siding with private financial interests in ignoring or denying the existence of obvious health problems linked to wind turbines. As is the case for the millions of birds and bats killed yearly by the turbines’ blades, mendacious studies are published by unscrupulous consultants, and by professionals and universities happy to oblige their benefactors. Hypocrisy is rampant, species are fast disappearing from our skies, and thousands of windfarm neighbours are being submitted to torture. The word “torture” is not an exaggeration: sleep deprivation is indeed a recognised form of torture.

www.windturbinesyndrome.com...

a reply to: jrod

Unless you can present PROOF of a peer-reviewed paper you published in a scientific journal that would refute the evidence presented in this thread, all I see is a delusional person making claims he can't back. BTW, you do need to learn math because the information I presented in this thread come from more than one Ph.D.

BTW, if someone were to call you a "moron", or an "idiot' that is a personal insult aka an ad hominem attack. But it is not an attack on science... That's not even what my responses were doing. I have been pointing out the fact that you keep claiming the scientists and doctors mentioned in this thread don't know what they are saying. But it is clear to most rational people that the only one not making any sense at all is you. When someone points out the fallacious and illogical claims made by someone such as yourself that is not an insult, it is a matter of fact...

Back up the claims you keep making with evidence, not with the delusional rants you keep posting here. Stop making claims that "this is not science" and "if you insult me you are insulting science"... That is not how a logical argument is presented.

There is NOTHING rational about siding with an industry that will cause mass deaths of more animals and insects. That's not counting the damage done to people because of wind turbines...

originally posted by: jrod
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Let use a little common sense here. The positives aspects of wind generators far outweigh the negative factors. Some of the stuff that you are claiming about the LF noise from wind gens has little actual scientific basis. One lone PHD means nothing, and most of your claims have little if any actual scientific basis. Let's not forget that cell phone towers transmit RF, wind turbines do NOT.

The bottom line is producing electricity via wind turbines is a much better alternative to burning fossil fuels.

I accept your opinion jrod but cant agree with it. Pollution comes in many forms and a big ass wind turbine alone or in a connected bank is polluting in many ways if not they would be in suburban areas.

It's a little simplistic to say its good because its better than the present bad.

Why it's occurring is that it creates jobs and private companies are getting subsidy's from Governments. Without the subsidies wind farms would be uneconomical, thus nonviable, yet so is the coal industry which in Australia gets 11 billion dollars a year in subsidies from the government.

Suppressed technology would change all this yet free unlimited energy to anyone is still perceived as a justified threat to the security of those who attain positions of control in the Western World.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

What evidence have you presented in this thread? One PHD that no one has heard of and a bunch of unverified links and excessive quotes?

You have presented NO PROOF to your claims. I cannot fathom that there are others who are agreeing with you. It is a debate tactic to challenge me to an impossible task. I can not debunk evidence that does not exist. Please kindly stop denying science.

It is disgusting to even suggest that wind farms are mass killers when the oil and industry are extremely guilty of causing mass deaths. I pray for your soul dude.

Wind turbines do not produce CO2 when they make electricity. It is quite obvious that this is MUCH better for the environment than continuing to release CO2 in out atmosphere.

a reply to: subtopia

While there are plenty of energy sources which we could use and are much better alternatives than those we use to this day, there will always be a need of knowledgeable people that can install, repair and in general handle whichever technology we use. So, unfortunately any new technology that we will use will not be free. Even if you have the knowledge needed to operate that technology, you have to buy and maintain the equipment to make use of that source of energy. Of course, some types of technologies will be cheaper than others, but people will most probably have to continue paying for the use of such technology.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

How in the hell do you think continuing to release CO2 and ravaging the Earth for petro is a better alternative to wind farms?

Amazing that you call me the delusional one!

Wind farm noise does harm sleep and health, say scientists

Wind farm noise causes “clear and significant” damage to people’s sleep and mental health, according to the first full peer-reviewed scientific study of the problem.

By Andrew Gilligan

9:00PM GMT 03 Nov 2012

American and British researchers compared two groups of residents in the US state of Maine. One group lived within a mile of a wind farm and the second group did not.

Both sets of people were demographically and socially similar, but the researchers found major differences in the quality of sleep the two groups enjoyed.

The findings provide the clearest evidence yet to support long-standing complaints from people living near turbines that the sound from their rotating blades disrupts sleep patterns and causes stress-related conditions.
...
“Participants living near industrial wind turbines had worse sleep, as evidenced by significantly greater mean PSQI and ESS scores,” the researchers, Michael Nissenbaum, Jeffery Aramini and Chris Hanning, found.

“There were clear and significant dose-response relationships, with the effect diminishing with increasing log-distance from turbines.”

The researchers also tracked respondents’ “mental component scores” and found a “significant” link – probably caused by poor-quality sleep – between wind turbines and poorer mental health.

More than a quarter of participants in the group living near the turbines said they had been medically diagnosed with depression or anxiety since the wind farm started. None of the participants in the group further away reported such problems.
...

www.telegraph.co.uk...

Are wind farms a health risk? US scientist identifies 'wind turbine syndrome'

Noise and vibration coming from large turbines are behind an increase in heart disease, migraine, panic attacks and other health problems, according to research by an American doctor .

By Margareta Pagano


Sunday 02 August 2009

Living too close to wind turbines can cause heart disease, tinnitus, vertigo, panic attacks, migraines and sleep deprivation, according to groundbreaking research to be published later this year by an American doctor.

Dr Nina Pierpont, a leading New York paediatrician, has been studying the symptoms displayed by people living near wind turbines in the US, the UK, Italy, Ireland and Canada for more than five years. Her findings have led her to confirm what she has identified as a new health risk, wind turbine syndrome (WTS). This is the disruption or abnormal stimulation of the inner ear's vestibular system by turbine infrasound and low-frequency noise, the most distinctive feature of which is a group of symptoms which she calls visceral vibratory vestibular disturbance, or VVVD. They cause problems ranging from internal pulsation, quivering, nervousness, fear, a compulsion to flee, chest tightness and tachycardia – increased heart rate. Turbine noise can also trigger nightmares and other disorders in children as well as harm cognitive development in the young, she claims. However, Dr Pierpont also makes it clear that not all people living close to turbines are susceptible.
...

www.independent.co.uk...

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

With studies like that, it is important to find out who paid for the study. It also should be noted if those who live in close proximity to a coal/petro burning plant exhibit the same symptoms.

The peer-review process is not what it used to be. Some might even say it has been hijacked. If the oil/energy oligarchy were to face this much scrutiny it would not be pretty.

So please tell how continuing to release CO2 and ravaging the Earth for petroleum is winning solution for our energy needs?

a reply to: Kali74

All sources of power are not the same. Electrical power plants do not generate the infrasound or the low frequency sounds that wind farms do generate...

How about you read the research papers, and the statements made by biologists, doctors and scientists all which show that wind farms do have many negative side effects on humans and animals?

If you want to dispute the information given by these scientists, then discuss their findings and show flaws in their conclusions with a concise argument explaining the flaws in their research...

I hope you make a better argument than some people who claim to be scientists around here...

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Do you really expect anyone to believe that wind generators are worse for the environment than coal or petro plants and the environmental nightmares that result from ravaging this planet for coal and oil?

I understand you will never agree with me. That is fine with me. I am a person who seeks truth and answers. Debating in circles solves nothing and generally drowns out the truth in facts of the reality of our situation on this little blue marble.

A few of my thoughts in no particular order....:

The solution to the noise is quiet simple - don't locate wind turbines near houses. Are there laws regarding this? How do they vary between countries? What should the law be?

Much of the discussion in this thread is highly speculative. The approximate design of wind turbines can be found online, so it would be fairly easy to put this inside some special software in order to find the magnetic field characteristics at certain distances which would allow the magnetic field of a wind farm to be compared with other sources. You could probably do that in less time it took to write this entire thread. Then you could search through some wildlife journal and find the sensitivity of animals to magnetic fields, couple this with a migratory path make some predictions. Actually if it hasn't already been done, and I suspect it hasn't (run a search on Nature, if you don't have access find somewhere that does like a university or library), you could probably get a PHD from something like this if you test it and validate the results.

Of course wind turbines will also kill birds and the sound will affect wildlife, I think these are probably unavoidable unless the designs can be changed in some way. You could look into wind turbine design, as a wild guess, what happens when small wingtip devices are added to wind turbines? If this does reduce harm, you could then create awareness for this and lobby for it.

Also within discussion about energy sources it would also be prudent to make comparison with other sources to find if it increases harm to the environment or decreases it, then combine that with cost predictions to find cost per unit of harm reduction. Also compare wind turbine bird kills versus birds kill by flying into buildings. I see you claim that wind turbines are apparently making the problem worse (even though they are displacing other sources) so I haven't actually seen this justified. I have about a half dozen ideas how this could be the case if you're interested, unfortunately I don't have proof. In addition if you think some future source of energy is good, then do some searching and compare it with renewable energy.

You can't make these claims then say that those that disagree are going off-topic.

You could also do a literature review on any one of these subjects, rather than look for specific papers.

A few times people have mentioned solar energy and wind energy as being expensive. This isn't so, very often they are some of the cheapest available energy sources of electricity. In Australia solar panels are more often installed on the homes of lower class families, rather than upper-class. Why? Because it saves them money. Richer people are more worried about them affecting the value of their real-estate...

So in all interesting thread, I don't think your approach is quiet right but you could definitely do something that not many or nobody has done before if you follow through with it.