Spiritual Reorientation 10: The Art of Life

a reply to: WhiteHat

So what do you mean when you say spirituality?

From my OP. Perhaps you missed it.

“It is indeed a painful cliché, but life is an adventure, and we, adventurers. In what manner one adventures is spirituality.”

For you?

“For me spirituality is looking within, a process of exploration and discovery, and I see nothing wrong with that.”

In other words, spirituality is living life with eyes turned inward. You are exploring only your own mind and the back of your eyelids. Seriously. You are really discovering and exploring nothing, and using words to make it seem like you are doing something. The world goes on around you.

It may be that the problem lies in your own perception of spirituality. And what is beyond that anyway?

The problem lies in your own perception, ie. you imagine that you are accomplishing something by sitting and “exploring” within.

What are you accomplishing?

In the same way you use generalities about prophets, or mystics, or I'll call them for that matter "people who found the truth". I have no idea what your experience with mystics is but there is no way you checked them all out and find them all liars. It's like a woman, or two, or three cheated on you and you come to the conclusion that all women are bad; let's just give up women.

Well there’s no way you’ve checked out all mystics, and there is no way you can confirm that they are all “people who found the truth”. You’ll need a better argument. You cannot prove that they are telling the truth and I cannot prove that they are lying. That is the mystic’s failure: their knowledge can only be confirmed by themselves. So let’s call them whatever we wish.

This is another huge generalization who only further confuses the topic. But even so, let me tell you this: no matter how you put it and what you believe, our life in this world is highly unsatisfactory, and I don't need a religion or a mystic to tell me that.

You’re confirming what I’ve written, after you’ve tried to pass it off as a gross generalization.

I see spirituality not as a weakness but as a hope that maybe there is more of this life than those material satisfactions, so I can understand the stressing to remove the focus from the material world. This life is not the final purpose. And when you finally realize that we are so much more than this material body the world is losing it's weight on you.

From my OP:

“Can one walk past all that has hitherto been called “spirituality”, the promises of a ‘higher life”, an eternal one, a greater share in the divinity, a greater share in “God”, and move even further beyond it?”

Your hope only brings you hope. That is all it is capable of. But if you cannot embody your spirituality, and act out what until now is only your words, it is meaningless. What does realizing we are so much more than this material body imply? Only reward. Immortality. Permanence. No more suffering. Nothing but spiritual monopoly money. Let’s see you embody that and bring your words into practice.

Another point I want to make is that you use intellectual tools for an argument that is actually in the realm of experience; and it will never work. It's like you never tasted water; you don't know what it is.

Mystics can only speak in analogy. I drink water actually. A lot of it. I’ve also travelled the world experiencing various religions, various spiritualities, pilgrimages and trained in various schools of thought and spirituality. I’ve spoken and practiced with witch doctors, monks, shaman, yogis, gurus, tantrics etc. Your claim that I do not know anything is simply shortsighted ignorance, no less. Tell me about your spiritual endeavours and we can compare. But the only argument a mystic can ever have is: “You do not know”.

There are some other things, but I will summarize it with this: in the end you are doing just the same like everybody else. I mean, your post sounds like ''stop chasing spirituality cause it will never give you happiness, do it my way to find happiness". Is not what every prophet out there is saying, my way is the real one?

From my OP:

“There is not a moment where a person is not at the exact unique center of their experience. Therefore, what comes out of this experience is entirely original, spoken from a place no one else can speak from. Though they may act similar and speak similar things, each person is an original, a life’s work, a becoming of a masterpiece, and a unique way to live a life—a prophet.”

If you are unable to come up with your own spirituality, you will forever remain a follower. So lighten up.

So though my post was "wrong in so many ways", you can only confirm it.

a reply to: BlueMule

There is your answer Clark. You are like a tourist in a nation of water-tasters. You run around trying to tell them what's what, but you can't understand what they are saying because you don't speak their language. You can't speak it, until you drink.

But the water-tasters can understand your tongue, and they can see you speak about something you don't know.

And what is that, mule? Tell me about something I do not know. This is the only argument you’ve been able to offer. “You don’t know”. Bravo. And why should I believe that?

a reply to: InTheLight

Personally, I don't believe there is ever an end to the 'seeking'; whatever that may be for the individual, and that is the question "What are you seeking?".

“Before enlightenment; chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment; chop wood, carry water.”

I would add the word 'Repeat!" at the end of that Zen quote above.

Meditation is the path I use to further my spirituality. At one point on the my path of deep meditation fear set in, but I have since found my strength and faced whatever was to be revealed to me with courage.

I use extreme sports and adventure to further mine. I've used that same courage you speak of to base jump and fall mere feet away from a rock face at breakneck speeds. Courage is an important tool.

a reply to: Aphorism

Well there’s no way you’ve checked out all mystics, and there is no way you can confirm that they are all “people who found the truth”. You’ll need a better argument. You cannot prove that they are telling the truth and I cannot prove that they are lying. That is the mystic’s failure: their knowledge can only be confirmed by themselves.

very suscinctly put. i echo your thoughts in the matter exactly.

a reply to: TzarChasm

I'm glad. Not many people do.

originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: TzarChasm

I'm glad. Not many people do.

as you say, their knoledge can only be confirmed by themselves. that is subjectivity, and not real science, form my understandng. i could be wrong, but i'll wait until someone prove it.

A bit interesting is how so many focus on "proving" you wrong as a priority, even stating it explicitly.. As always, I have greatly enjoyed your post Aph. We may disagree on the semantics, luckily that doesnt matter unless we cant focus on anything else. I do greatly enjoy "sitting." I dont think too many are particularly interested in doing anything else other than reaching their perceived "next level" though. I get access to my ultimate on my next level up though, so I get it!

pew pew pew *DING*

originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: InTheLight

Personally, I don't believe there is ever an end to the 'seeking'; whatever that may be for the individual, and that is the question "What are you seeking?".

“Before enlightenment; chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment; chop wood, carry water.”

I would add the word 'Repeat!" at the end of that Zen quote above.

Meditation is the path I use to further my spirituality. At one point on the my path of deep meditation fear set in, but I have since found my strength and faced whatever was to be revealed to me with courage.

I use extreme sports and adventure to further mine. I've used that same courage you speak of to base jump and fall mere feet away from a rock face at breakneck speeds. Courage is an important tool.

So, what was revealed to you via those adrenalin-fueled experiences?

a reply to: BlueMule

is a different language, or is it broken logic? i could blurt a line of random syllables and say taht just because you don't understand it doesnt make it any less meaningful. truth is, its gobbledegook. but when you say it isnt, all we have is your word. is that supposd to be good enough?

originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: BlueMule

There is your answer Clark. You are like a tourist in a nation of water-tasters. You run around trying to tell them what's what, but you can't understand what they are saying because you don't speak their language. You can't speak it, until you drink.

But the water-tasters can understand your tongue, and they can see you speak about something you don't know.

And what is that, mule? Tell me about something I do not know. This is the only argument you’ve been able to offer. “You don’t know”. Bravo. And why should I believe that?

Because the hard sciences and the soft sciences both say there is something to know. The evidence is abundant. Mystics are talking about a kind of water that you have yet to drink. The taste, the feel of it going down your throat quenching your thirst, the feel of it in your stomach, and the relief of pissing.

Or better yet, it is a fire. The feel of it burning you from inside out, the smell of the smoke, the light and shadow on the wall. Burning away fear, isolation, heartache.

Or better yet, it is both, and gives to each according to their measure.

The Truth stands before me,
On my left is a blazing fire, and
On my right, a cool flowing stream.

One group of people walk toward the fire, into the fire,
And the other towards the cool flowing waters.
No one knows which is blessed and which is not.

But just as a just as someone enters the fire,
That head bobs up from the water,
And just as a head sinks into the water,

That face appears in the fire.

Those who love the sweet water of pleasure
And make it their devotion are cheated by this reversal.

The deception goes further-

The voice of the fire says:

“I am not fire, I am fountainhead,
Come into me and don’t mind the sparks.”

-Rumi

Science and scholarship can lead you to see for yourself what it is you are missing out on that mystics are not. When you do see, the explosion of your reaction will be proportionate to all the resistance to it you have put up over the years. You will truly be a very powerful Superman, Clark.

a reply to: BlueMule

teh story of the blind men and the elephatn. i would sooner wait for sceince to identify the animal as a fact than listne to a bunch of blind gaffers tell me what they think they know from their limitd observations.

It's obvious that you hold a grudge against spirituality, that's why I told you to lighten up. Other than that your only argument is to keep asking for others to prove something to you.

In other words, spirituality is living life with eyes turned inward. You are exploring only your own mind and the back of your eyelids. Seriously. You are really discovering and exploring nothing, and using words to make it seem like you are doing something. The world goes on around you.

Living my life is living life as it is, and spirituality is part of it. I don't live in a cage, I don't shave my head and I don't open threads preaching my spirituality to others. So what do you know about my life, how do you know what I experience or discover, really? You imagine things about people that are doing something you obviously don't get it, and for some reason you feel the need to berate them and feel superior. Well, I'll tell you what. Some people are tone deaf, other don't see all the colors. You can't get meditation or spirituality, no big deal. But stop discarding anyone else who DO get it; this is not honest searching, is fooling yourself.

The problem lies in your own perception, ie. you imagine that you are accomplishing something by sitting and “exploring” within.

No, I don't have a problem; you are the one making a thread about how useless spirituality is, and when I ask you what exactly are talking about you turn on personal remarks.

What are you accomplishing?

Who cares? Seriously. This is not a job application, nor a marketing plan that must meet a certain quota by the end of the year. Spirituality is a little like sex; intimate, personal and everyone is doing it in their own way. What, you really expect someone will come here and tell you" oh, I have x-ray vision already and by the next month I'll be able to have direct communication with heaven", so you can asses their accomplishment and decide if you enroll or not?

Well there’s no way you’ve checked out all mystics, and there is no way you can confirm that they are all “people who found the truth”. You’ll need a better argument.

No, not all of them have found the truth, but that doesn't mean that none of them have, does it? I only need one to be genuine to prove my point; you need to check them all because you refute them all.

Your hope only brings you hope. That is all it is capable of. But if you cannot embody your spirituality, and act out what until now is only your words, it is meaningless. What does realizing we are so much more than this material body imply? Only reward. Immortality. Permanence. No more suffering. Nothing but spiritual monopoly money. Let’s see you embody that and bring your words into practice.

What is exactly that you want to see embodied? I really don't get what you're really looking for, a Jesus walking on the water? What's wrong with no more suffering, are you one of those who believe that being happy is wrong? You said you know about -quote- "various religions, various spiritualities, pilgrimages and trained in various schools of thought and spirituality." So what is it that you looked for and didn't find, because seriously your arguments sound more like frustration than honest searching.

From my OP: “There is not a moment where a person is not at the exact unique center of their experience. Therefore, what comes out of this experience is entirely original, spoken from a place no one else can speak from. Though they may act similar and speak similar things, each person is an original, a life’s work, a becoming of a masterpiece, and a unique way to live a life—a prophet."
If you are unable to come up with your own spirituality, you will forever remain a follower.”

Then why are you so against other people's spirituality, if their experience makes it original and true? I would think that holding a belief like this will make one respect and appreciate other people spirituality as well, and understand that we all seek for something better, but what do I know?...

Well, it may be exciting to find and patent your own spirituality, but life is short, and I will not waste it in trying to reinvent the wheel, nor dwelling into the 'prophet syndrome" just to satisfy my ego. There are people out there who hold enormous wisdom, that are willing to share and help; and I always considered myself a practical person.
There can be only one truth, but there are many ways to get there; so please don't belittle those who chose a different path than yours. I AM a follower, and I consider myself extremely lucky because of that; and no, it doesn't mean that I follow like a robot. All that a master can do is to show you the door, is you who must open it and get through. By means of discovery and exploring, just the same way you came up with "your own" spirituality

Secondly, maybe I didn't put it in so many words but that quote above.... I believe it's exactly what I meant when I said "whatever works for you is the real way". And the same for others.

Now you have some questions that you might want to answer; not to me but to yourself. I personally couldn't care less, and also I'm not into comparing "spiritual credentials", I don't try to enlighten no one. But when you come on stage dismissing everyone else spirituality you may expect some heavy questions, because you like it or not there are people more experienced than you out there. And attacking them personally instead of answering their question will just not work.

a reply to: WhiteHat

i think aphorism is trynig to say that most instnces of spirituality are less pragmatyic than their rerpesantives make it out to be. oriented around detahcing from the materrial world for the purpose of exatling the spiritual world, because one is less permannt than the otherr. my observations tell me that were no longer satisfied with the phsycial because we imagne better, then ask why we cant have it. why live in a world of suffring when we can imagine a world without it. a world of death when we cn imaginee one without it. ad becase we can imagine it, we ask why we cant have it. the unverse operates indpendently of our dreams and fancies but spiritul proponnts dont get that it seems?

sorry bout the spelling. my ees are poor and fingers worse. is it bedtine yet?

a reply to: TzarChasm

From my experience there are different approaches for different people. Some can get the spirituality in the light version, riding the wave while living their life at the fullest; others need to isolate themselves, to bring it in a sterile laboratory, analyze it and use it with most precaution. I also know that every one of us gets that level of spirituality that is ready for; the truth is the same for the master and the ignorant, out in the open. But we need our experiences, our frustrations, our failures and success to open up and see the truth. Spirituality is a tool, that by itself worth nothing; is a mean to get somewhere, and until we get there it's the only tool we have.

If we'll get there, and what is for each of us that magical place we want to reach is a different question.

That's the reason I asked what exactly did he mean by spirituality. I know people have bad experiences with fake gurus, and I have no doubt that many people are using our need for spirituality to make money; yet I also know for a fact that there are realized people who shine like a light in this world. Today we use the term spirituality to cover just about everything is not material, from hugging trees and yoga all the way to fanatic religiousness. That's why you cannot dismiss them all; you have to be specific and explain what are you referring to. Who knows, we may have even agreed.

a reply to: WhiteHat

i agree. but its when people forget that spiritality is a tool and not a dimension indepndent of human mechansms that things go awry.

a reply to: WhiteHat

It's obvious that you hold a grudge against spirituality, that's why I told you to lighten up. Other than that your only argument is too keep asking for others to prove something to you.

I love spirituality. I am trying to defend it from those who only weaken it and make it superfluous.

Living my life is living life as it is, and spirituality is part of it. I don't live in a cage, I don't shave my head and I don't open threads preaching my spirituality to others. So what do you know about my life, how do you know what I experience or discover, really? You imagine things about people that are doing something you obviously don't get it, and for some reason you feel the need to berate them and feel superior. Well, I'll tell you what. Some people are tone deaf, other don't see all the colors. You can't get meditation or spirituality, no big deal. But stop discarding anyone else who DO get it; this is not honest searching, is fooling yourself.

I don’t care to know anything about your life. What I am privy to is what you share, which so far is that you “explore” and “discover” through no exploration or discovery. What have you actually explored?

I do not feel superior. You are telling me I am not spiritual because I do not “get it”—and that I do not “get it” simply because I disagree with you. Further, you are telling me what to do, treating me like a child and declaring moral superiority. Who is feeling superior here?

No, I don't have a problem; you are the one making a thread about how useless spirituality is, and when I ask you what exactly are talking about you turn on personal remarks.

The spirituality you are promoting makes spirituality useless. I’ve explained this already. I’d rather change that.

Who cares? Seriously. This is not a job application, nor a marketing plan that must meet a certain quota by the end of the year. Spirituality is a little like sex; intimate, personal and everyone is doing it in their own way. What, you really expect someone will come here and tell you" oh, I have x-ray vision already and by the next month I'll be able to have direct communication with heaven", so you can asses their accomplishment and decide if you enroll or not?

“Witches” were condemned to death by spiritualists. People were condemned to death by those who seek to impose a caste system. Himmler used the Bhagavad Gita to inspire his nazi’s to commit unspeakable crimes. Zen Buddhism was used to inspire Japanese soldiers to commit unspeakable crimes. Spiritual factions kill members of other spiritual factions.

Yes, who cares.

No, not all of them have found the truth, but that doesn't mean that none of them have, does it? I only need one to be genuine to prove my point; you need to check them all because you refute them all.

What “truth” are you speaking about?

What is exactly that you want to see embodied? I really don't get what you're really looking for, a Jesus walking on the water? What's wrong with no more suffering, are you one of those who believe that being happy is wrong? You said you know about -quote- "various religions, various spiritualities, pilgrimages and trained in various schools of thought and spirituality." So what is it that you looked for and didn't find, because seriously your arguments sound more like frustration than honest searching.

It is not what I didn’t find, but what I did find. I had no expectations beyond what was promised—bliss, happiness, a “higher life”, access to “spiritual wisdom”. I found that these promises are empty.

Well, it may be exciting to find and patent your own spirituality, but life is short, and I will not waste it in trying to reinvent the wheel, nor dwelling into the 'prophet syndrome" just to satisfy my ego. There are people out there who hold enormous wisdom, that are willing to share and help; and I always considered myself a practical person.

Share with me some of the practical benefits of your spirituality.

There can be only one truth, but there are many ways to get there; so please don't belittle those who chose a different path than yours. I AM a follower, and I consider myself extremely lucky because of that; and no, it doesn't mean that I follow like a robot. All that a master can do is to show you the door, is you who must open it and get through. By means of discovery and exploring, just the same way you came up with "your own" spirituality.

Why dictate what I can and can not do? We’re on level ground here. Spiritual authority is a myth you seem to be trying to perpetuate. Also, what do you actually “discover” and “explore” by looking inward? What “door” were you shown? Trying to wade through so much metaphor, cliché and analogy is tiresome. What are you actually trying to convey?

I personally couldn't care less, and also I'm not into comparing "spiritual credentials", I don't try to enlighten no one.

Yet here you are, “caring less”, comparing spiritual credentials, trying to enlighten me. Very interesting.

a reply to: BlueMule

Science and scholarship can lead you to see for yourself what it is you are missing out on that mystics are not. When you do see, the explosion of your reaction will be proportionate to all the resistance to it you have put up over the years. You will truly be a very powerful Superman, Clark.

Seeing involves the eyes. I can and have seen mystics. However, I have never seen a mystic use his mysticism to, say, help another human being, or to do a good deed. If inaction is all I am missing out on, then I am missing out on really nothing.

a reply to: InTheLight

So, what was revealed to you via those adrenalin-fueled experiences?

I cannot say anything is revealed to me. But in these moments I realize my mortality, my fragility, my vulnerability, my fear. By facing them I realize my strength and my power.

Meditation has shown to have many beneficial effects for the body and mind

io9.com...

Meditation yields a surprising number of health benefits, including stress reduction, improved attention, better memory, and even increased creativity and feelings of compassion.

For example, neuroscientists observing MRI scans have learned that meditation strengthens the brain by reinforcing the connections between brain cells.

Other studies, for example, have shown that meditation is linked to cortical thickness, which can result in decreased sensitivity to pain.

Or take the 2009 study with the descriptive title, “Long-term meditation is associated with increased gray matter density in the brain stem.” Neuroscientists used MRIs to compare the brains of meditators with non-meditators. The structural differences observed led the scientists to speculate that certain benefits, like improved cognitive, emotional, and immune responses, can be tied to this growth and its positive effects on breathing and heart rate (cardiorespiratory control).

Meditation has been linked to larger hippocampal and frontal volumes of gray matter, resulting in more positive emotions, the retention of emotional stability, and more mindful behavior (heightened focus during day-to-day living). Meditation has also been shown to have neuroprotective attributes; it can diminish age-related effects on gray matter and reduce cognitive decline.

Neuroscientists have documented the way it impacts on brain activity itself. For example, meditation has been associated with decreased activity in default mode network activity and connectivity — those undesirable brain functions responsible for lapses of attention and disorders such as anxiety, ADHD — and even the buildup of beta amyloid plaques in Alzheimer’s disease.

And finally, meditation has been linked to dramatic changes in electrical brain activity, namely increased Theta and Alpha EEG activity, which is associated with wakeful and relaxed attention.

These benefits make one better equipped for exploring this world. Lots of spiritual practices have benefits which serve us well in the long run- even if they seem to be "staring the back of your eyelids".
Maybe you just need to consider long term effects rather than immediate ones...?

a reply to: Bluesma

i dont see why that should be considered mysticl just becase we dont have an exact explanatiomn for it. its not supernatural is it?