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Spiritual Reorientation 10: The Art of Life

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posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 06:38 PM
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a reply to: TzarChasm




liberation from what in order to go where. metamorphosis from what into what. these are the things i desire to be clarified.


Certainly.
Liberation: 
The one I'm referring to, is liberation from ignorance. The ignorance I'm SPECIFICALLY referring to, is the BELIEF in that which your five senses portrays as your reality. meaning, a mortal you as an individual body that is born and dies, and existing in an environment that is 'other than' you.  This ignorance is what fuels all the questions and is the motivating force behind all searches. In other words, it is what pushes you to find out about yourself and this Universe.
 
 The ignorance that comes from the belief (supported solely by the five sense perceptions) that you're an individual self separated from the Universe (which is the foundational source of ALL suffering), is NOT seen, nor will it EVER be seen or perceived (to make it absolutely clear)  unless you stumble upon the self, the You, which ISN'T an individual, is NOT mortal and is most certainly not OTHER than the Universe itself.  

 Also the ignorance that comes from the belief that you're an individual self separated from the Universe is the same ignorance a person operates from when they believe the dream they're having at night, is real.  To be MORE specific. The belief that you are an individual person separated from the physical world and the Universe, comes from your 5 sense perceptions ONLY. The brain presents this to you as your reality and it's the only data you've thus far been wasting time pontificating on. HOWEVER, these same five sense PERCEPTIONS fool you into believing the dreams you have at night. So tell me, how reliable is your discernment of your five sense perceptions if you can be fooled every night into believing you're riding a horse in the desert when your only just laying in bed asleep? You have NO discernment of your five senses whatsoever!  If one minute you can be relaxing in bed, and then suddenly believing your skydiving out of a plane, there's NO discernment happening. So...
  the burden of proving the reliability of your five sense perceptions (which is the foundation of all your so called 'knowledge') is on you. Don't ask someone to prove to you that a higher reality lies beyond the five senses, instead the burden is on YOU to prove that your five sense perceptions are the highest authority OF reality.
  
 To continue: No longer being enchanted and hypnotized by the five sense perceptions is also an after affect of this recognition and itself a form of liberation. In other words, the five sense perceptions (the rulers of your idea of reality) are INCAPABLE of telling the difference between a dream and reality, thus neither can you. It is people like you and Aphorism, who is still worshipping those limited sensory perceptions, and pawning the data that comes from them as the ultimate authority of reality. It's preposterous, when I bet tonight you're going to be hypnotized again by those same sensory perceptions. Unfortunately, I no longer have dreams at night. And if briefly they arrive, I usually go Lucid and have a blast. But usually, I sleep VERY sound.

Liberation would be the cessation of all the suffering that results from that ignorance and also results in a tremendous influx of energy which was previously used (DIVERTED) to find answers to all those stupid questions. No more seeking, no spiritual retreats, paths or journeys, practices or disciplines. NOTHING AT ALL. 

    It is the after affect of profoundly recognizing such a thing yourself and the discarding of the beliefs you once held, along with all the desires that were fueled by them. As well as a discarding of the 'work-in-progress' idea and notion you have about yourself and reality. (you know, that temporary place holder, or idea-so-far philosophy which you defend even while still searching for the answer ? Yeah, That one).

Metamorphosis:
  The mind and body slowly adjusting to, (yielding to actually) the source of itself. Which, also, is the after effect of that recognition. It is the dropping away of all belief patterns and the disenchantment with the five sense perceptions. Everything is burned away, drops off and you are left with clarity, ease, contentment, joy, peace, it doesn't come and go, and you don't have to chase or maintain it. Which ALSO is an after affect of this recognition. It is NOT a goal.

I speak personally of this. I'm not regurgitating anyone else's ideas or words, no cut and paste, and if they sound similar to mine, that's none of my business. I follow no religion, no spiritual practice, no ideology of any kind, and although I may use words from certain areas, it's just for convenience sake. (Like my favorite term Maya). I'm not a mystic (Aphorism!) , I'm not a seeker, a spiritualist, or associated with any doctrine or philosophy of any kind. So I don't want to answer for all of that because those are not mine.

edit on 24-7-2014 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 06:40 PM
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originally posted by: TzarChasm

without the scientific method, you can't verify anything except something really strange and wonderous happened inside your skull. and only you can verify that, which doesn't do anything for science.


The scope of science is limited, not unlimited. But, that doesn't mean there isn't plenty of evidence to support my position. I've had plenty of psychic experiences that verified themselves. Plus, there is a VERY large body of parapsychological evidence that has accumulated for over a century. People have no idea.

"I have always seen parapsychology as the "earthing" of the spiritual. In our experiments we explore the psychic in a very logical, rational, exoteric manner. We assign clearly demonstrable proof ratings to the different variables. In such a manner we have inadvertently confirmed many spiritual teachings, for example that one's attitude or belief about something may actually affect the occurrence of that particular matter. Faith, it used to be called, although now it is "the sheep-goat effect," was said to be able to move mountains. Jesus spoke quite extensively on the incredible effect of faith, which has now become transmuted into attitude, and the Hindus have a spiritual path centered around faith called Bhakti Yoga. Our modern terms are more applicable to our present society, but underneath the change in terminology the concept lives on.

Another example of the "earthing of a religious concept" occurs when doing a ganzfeld or other free-response experiment. The first thing the participant is taught to do is to become aware of the content of their mind. This action is what the Christians call contemplation and the Buddhists call mindfulness, and it is the first step in meditation, the first step in learning how to develop one's mind. The state of consciousness that the ganzfeld induces is to be found in quite a number of different religions as well, albeit induced in radically different methods, such as getting up and chanting at 3 a.m. The point in common with all these methods is the aim to create a state of consciousness whereby the conscious mind is stopped, thus allowing one to access material from the collective unconscious."

-Serena Roney-Dougal



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 06:46 PM
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a reply to: Visitor2012

Thank you for your response. what i interpret from your response is that i am expected to dismiss the material world entirely and lounge around until time sees fit to free me from my mortal coils. and that strikes me as selfish and lazy to the point of idiocy. perhaps that is not your message, but your explanations mirror the arguments of those who DO say such things. i am content with accepting physical reality exactly as it presents itself to me. if i find a higher realm, cool. if i dont, that is also cool. i will not waste my time being disatisfied with a society that does not seek to transcend this dimension in search of a less physically oriented one, nor will i waste my time pursuing it myself. i hope thats understandable to you, but if it isnt, thats not my problem.

edit on 24-7-2014 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 06:53 PM
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originally posted by: TzarChasm

without the scientific method, you can't verify anything except something really strange and wonderous happened inside your skull. and only you can verify that, which doesn't do anything for science. which means im hard pressed to take you more seriously than my kids talking to me about santa's flying reindeer.


I would have to agree with you here (and the core Middle Path of Buddhism would as well). I will quote myself from another thread musing about my experience with experiences of this kind ("it does not further" so to speak, so don't take it very seriously - it might be interesting for you to see another viewpoint of someone very experienced in these types of states though):


originally posted by: philosopheroftruth
There are many different 'States of Consciousness' that a person can experience (though I disagree that there are only 4), and they are all interesting. The issue though, is to become a 'Spiritual Materialist" - to cling to what is inside and confuse it with what is outside.

The state that you speak of I take to be the 'White Light'/'Pure Consciousness'/'Non-Duality' type? I think of that place as the base of a person's consciousness - everything is erased but a dim awareness. While this experience is ineffable (I have been lucky to get there on three different occasions), it is still all a product of your mind (in my experience). The explanation for my mind is as follows:

In a person's 'Relative Universe', there are many layers. At the outermost level, there is the exact internal copy (built by you, based on what you know) of the 'Absolute Universe' (Astral Projections initially happen here) - at the innermost there is this base platform level of your mind that you speak of (actually, waking consciousness would be the outermost layer since that also takes place only in a projection inside your own head but that's beside the point).

The 'Internal Universe' of a person is made up of 'Volitional Formations', or thought structures. You can think of these as channels inside your mind (most likely 'Neural Networks') that channel energy inside your mind for certain tasks. When you move from the Outer Level of your mind (the representation of the external world that is inside your head) to the Inner Level (the "Oneness" experience), you are effectively temporarily breaking up and dissolving these Volitional Formations inside yourself and releasing the energy that is being channeled through your neural circuits. The result of this is an ego that is increasingly fragmenting apart (the hallucinations and entities you see in this process are pieces of you that have broken off but are trying to stay intact) until all formations are gone. Once gone, you will just watch and be the base energy that makes up your mind. It's very peaceful and all only yourself.

Another fact of this place is its lack of any describable quality. This is due to the fact that to get there, you need to remove all perception of quality from your mind. This has lead Buddhist teachings to conclude that 'the world is empty' - when all your own created ideas are cleared, there are no ideas left. This leads one to conclude that there is no intrinsic meaning to the Universe.


Just some more ideas to throw out there!



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 06:57 PM
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a reply to: philosopheroftruth

you are helping to flesh out a topic that, if explored properly, can be very revealing and insightful regarding the processes of mysticism/spirituality and how they reflect the human psyche. carry on.



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 07:24 PM
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a reply to: TzarChasm



Thank you for your response. what i interpret from your response is that i am expected to dismiss the material world entirely and lounge around until time sees fit to free me from my mortal coils.

I never said you should do anything, nor did I say that I did anything.



and that strikes me as selfish and lazy to the point of idiocy.

I own two businesses, have a family and am a very productive person. Where the heck did you get that from? Don't assume...I never said I sat around and did nothing. No thanks, That's in your head.



i am content with accepting physical reality exactly as it presents itself to me.

What do you mean when you say 'accepting physical reality'? How can a person un-accept it? I never said any such thing. Slow down and read carefully.



if i find a higher realm, cool. if i dont, that is also cool. i will not waste my time being disatisfied with a society that does not seek to transcend this dimension in search of a less physically oriented one,


Seriously, as you were. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Go and do whatever you must, I have nothing to do with it and don't care. I don't mean that in a ugly way, I mean it sincerely. Without ill. I never said I was dissatisfied with society..again that's in your head..not mine. Nor did I say anything having to do with 'less physically oriented' dimensions or ANY dimension for that matter.



nor will i waste my time pursuing it myself. i hope thats understandable to you, but if it isnt, thats not my problem


That is completely understandable and very intelligent because NOBODY can pursue it. And if you did try to pursue it, you WOULD be wasting your time. I'm glad we agree on some thing and all my writing wasn't in vain.

edit on 24-7-2014 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 07:35 PM
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a reply to: Visitor2012

you have a strange habit of overlooking the critical details. like where I said:


perhaps that is not your message, but your explanations mirror the arguments of those who DO say such things.


keep your grass skirt on, im not out to implicate without due cause.



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 07:43 PM
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originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Visitor2012


you have a strange habit of overlooking the critical details. like where I said:


"perhaps that is not your message, but your explanations mirror the arguments of those who DO say such things."


keep your grass skirt on, im not out to implicate without due cause.


What other people say, rather they mirror mine or not, is not my problem and I certainly don't want to answer on their behalf. I don't care what they say, don't even want to know what they said, I'm out of it, so leave me out of it. Whoever these people are you're referring to, and whatever you've heard or read, or understood from them is between you and them. I just speak for myself.

There..I think I covered everything...

I enjoyed our conversation....
edit on 24-7-2014 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 07:48 PM
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a reply to: Visitor2012

Then I don't know what your point is. Or is it just that I shouldn't trust my senses?



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 07:53 PM
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originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Visitor2012

Then I don't know what your point is. Or is it just that I shouldn't trust my senses?


I was answering your question by attempting to provide clarity on what I said in a previous post without using metaphors. That is all. I'm not trying to make a point to you. And I definitely didn't say you should or shouldn't do anything. Do whatever you like. Go wherever you please. Because it has nothing whatsoever to do with what I spoke about.
edit on 24-7-2014 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 08:14 PM
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a reply to: Aphorism

a reply to: Visitor2012



Excuse my error.

When you say "Liberation from Maya is what delivered me through all of it", what besides "maya" were you liberated from?

Maya is everything you perceive and experience, it's all form and all perceivable existence and all phenomenon.. So what do you mean 'besides Maya'?



And if you didn't liberate yourself, by what mechanism were you liberated?


There is no mechanism. And no self was liberated. Liberation itself IS the recognition (the exposure) of the ignorance that you are an individual self, person, entity. It's not a 'self' being liberated. The English language is really difficult, because it inherently separates the actor from the act. Or doer from the doing. There is no doer in what I say. I hear eastern languages are more suitable for this type of dialogue, but I don't speak it.




Who or what removed your shackles so to speak?


If you were blind and walking with a stick and all of a sudden you slipped, fell and hit your head, and suddenly you could see again. Who or what gave you vision so to speak? Secondly....would you care?


edit on 24-7-2014 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 08:26 PM
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If anyone is getting wrapped up in random delusions/hallucinations that are produced during "mystical" experiences, I will offer the Buddhist stance on worldview that may be interesting to some (from here):

"Monks, there are other things which are very deep (profound), very hard to understand, very difficult to perceive, so holy and sacred, unreached by means of mind, so subtle, that they are only to be understood and experienced by the wise. These things were perceived clearly, seen clearly and were discarded by the Tathagata, and by this act based on the truth that people praise and revered Tathagatha. What are those things?"

The Buddha then goes on to explain each of the possible metaphysical "Wrong Views" of many mystics. I completely agree even after having had a number of the experiences listed by Buddha in the Sutta. Many people believe Buddhism to be just as "mystical" as Hinduism (some sects are, such as the Bon Religion), but the true Middle Way has virtually nothing to do with mysticism.



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 11:14 PM
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a reply to: Visitor2012

Okay then? Thank you for clarifying. I don't mean to come across as callous or antogonistic. I am a critic, because sometimes, the best means of testing something is to try and break it. I am only critical in the interest of knowing exactly how to fix what's flawed, and I hope you understand that. I thank you for the patience you've had with me this far, and I hope we can contibue to have such interesting discussikns. You have youraelf a wonderful rest of your day.




posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 11:45 PM
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originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Visitor2012

Okay then? Thank you for clarifying. I don't mean to come across as callous or antogonistic. I am a critic, because sometimes, the best means of testing something is to try and break it. I am only critical in the interest of knowing exactly how to fix what's flawed, and I hope you understand that. I thank you for the patience you've had with me this far, and I hope we can contibue to have such interesting discussikns. You have youraelf a wonderful rest of your day.



There's no problems and no worries, I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversation as well.



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 02:16 AM
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a reply to: Bluesma


I do think that my spiritual activity, including meditation was necessary for me to change my early programming and conditioning. Visualisation, imagination and belief are powerful tools in such an undertaking. I do not percieve that it could have been done in any permanent way with other means
(I had been through much psychotherapy and medicinal treatments they were useful for determination of problems and temporary relief only).


I have to agree with you. Your explanation is meaningful here. You are right to say that visualization, imagination and belief are powerful tools; and I have no doubt about the transformative and inspiring power these faculties bring forth in someone. Conversely, the opposite, that being the suppressing of these faculties, can have adverse affects. Stress, worry, depression, disassociation are all detrimental to health. Meditation might be the correct course of action in these circumstances. I agree that whatever it takes to keep a mind fresh and lean is a necessary requirement for full bodily health. If it can lead one to avenues of thought that liberate one for other avenues of thought, or whatever one sees as suffering or hurdles to satisfaction, then of course. If it can rewire one’s thinking to a more healthy configuration, it would entail health in body and in action. I’m all for any sort of exercise and nutrition. Health is the sort of spirituality I advocate.


If you feel that your early programming is sufficient or effective, for you to be a happy person in general and an active constructive element in your community, then I see no reason for you to engage in spiritual practice. But I truly wonder how you feel you can determine that for others?


Feeling happy is not something I necessarily strive for. Perhaps I’m strange, but I choose to suffer also. Pain for me is the same as pleasure—me in the midst of my surroundings. Maybe I am absurdly sensual, but I need to feel as much as I can. Throwing myself at life and creativity necessarily leads me to that sort of suffering. It is a learning suffering. But then again, why be happy when you can be interesting?

Unfortunately I don’t have much of an early programming to report on. Though an orphan and have lost many, I haven’t lived a life in torture and abuse as you have. I do not have any right to tell you what spirituality means. But I believe spirituality is the only way out of the current condition of world affairs.


I will be frank on something which might be offensive, I hope it can be heard with some distance. But the opinion you express is very common amongst people who have explored spirituality a bit, but not with the intent to heal or change parts of self, but rather, as an outlet for their innate draw to power and competative alpha drives.
They enter with the intent of coming to possess knowledge which will give them power, superiority, over others.
When that fails to happen, they become resentful of the spiritual leaders and guides they have imagined to be superior in some way, in the past.

So they try to be an alpha through beating them instead of joining them, trying to rally masses to follow them in crusade to replace them with - your word instead.

perhaps this is not your case, I just let you know it is the global aura I get from your discours, even if it might be false.


You are perhaps right. I have nothing besides my body to heal, and if healing is a prerequisite to spirituality, then I have failed in my endeavours. Though I have been around the spiritual block so to say, and I gave it every chance, it did not have the beauty to inspire me. The romance was gone when I saw it in the flesh. In fact, I recoil in horror to what it has become in my ideas once I lived it. The things people will do in its name; it’s history is bathed in blood, suppression, genocide, and alienation. Is this the price of healing?

Spirituality has been subverted a long time ago. It took the pagan gods and turned them into demons. It took sensuality and the body and turned them evil. It took life and turned it into guilt. It took our faith, our belief, and our value out of this world and imagined it into another one. It took merriment, joy and play and resigned them to a few days of the year. The worship of the living became the worship of the dead. Those who disagreed they burned at the stake, and a saint had her flayed alive with sea shells and broken tiles. The chandala could only drink and bathe in the dirty water found in the footprints of animals, and they were aloud to eat only onions and garlic, and the garbage of the brahmins. Countless women burned alive as witches. Intolerant Buddhists murdering muslims in the streets. Exceedingly rich gurus and godmen holding political and economic power. I will not join them.

Fighting that battle through their methods of violence and suppression will never work. Bodies are too valuable to put in harms way. A spiritual reorientation can only happen culturally; the politics will follow. I just happen to enjoy writing about these things.

But no, I have not tapped into any dark-side or negative state. I’ll be sure to keep my aura to a minimum.


Now go vacation. Talking to strangers on the internet is no way to spend a holiday.



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 11:42 AM
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originally posted by: Aphorism

Spirituality has been subverted a long time ago. It took the pagan gods and turned them into demons.


Sooner or later, everything becomes its opposite. Enantiodromia, yin becomes yang and vice-versa. And that's what going to save you, Clark - the inevitability of enantiodromia. Yin and yang are not static.


edit on 743Friday000000America/ChicagoJul000000FridayAmerica/Chicago by BlueMule because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 12:44 PM
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originally posted by: philosopheroftruth
Many people believe Buddhism to be just as "mystical" as Hinduism (some sects are, such as the Bon Religion), but the true Middle Way has virtually nothing to do with mysticism.


You are at a fork in the road. The path on your left has virtually nothing to do with mysticism, as you know it. The path on your right has everything to do with mysticism as you know it. Which path do you take?



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 01:37 PM
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a reply to: BlueMule

I watched your video, Mule. Neat ideas. But I failed to see any evidence or proof, and most of it amounts to simply grasping at any sort of anomaly within a sea of statistics. As far as I can tell, it lacks any cohesive theory or hypothesis, and my lack of understanding in the area is due to a lack of interest in its ideas. As it stands currently, at least for me, this stuff falls outside the realm of science and scholarship.

This is an opinion.

edit on 25-7-2014 by Aphorism because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 01:39 PM
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a reply to: BlueMule




Sooner or later, everything becomes its opposite. Enantiodromia, yin becomes yang and vice-versa. And that's what going to save you, Clark - the inevitability of enantiodromia. Yin and yang are not static.


I don't agree with that.



posted on Jul, 25 2014 @ 01:46 PM
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originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: BlueMule

I watched your video, Mule. Neat ideas. But I failed to see any evidence or proof, and most of it amounts to simply grasping at any sort of anomaly within a sea of statistics. As far as I can tell, it lacks any cohesive theory or hypothesis, and my lack of understanding in the area is due to a lack of interest in its ideas. As it stands currently, at least for me, this stuff falls outside the realm of science and scholarship.

This is an opinion.


Thanks for watching it! I'm sure it must have been like pulling teeth to sit through a 60 minute vid about something you have no interest in. At least it shows me you can challenge your body philosophy.

As you say, the ideas are neat. As you say, there is no proof. Science isn't about proof. But there is much more evidence than you have seen, and evidence is always open to interpretation. Your interpretation of the evidence is that it isn't really evidence after all. My interpretation is that it is.

But the fact remains, there is evidence there to be interpreted. You've only seen a tiny fraction of it because your lack of interest has mislead you. So at this point, you don't know how much you don't know. You think you know, but you don't.

We can play Opinion Club but Project Evidence is another story.



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