It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Spiritual Reorientation 10: The Art of Life

page: 11
7
<< 8  9  10    12  13  14 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 04:12 PM
link   
a reply to: BlueMule




That doesn't explain why a smart guy like you hasn't stumbled onto the science and scholarship that could guide you out of your turbulent waters. That's your metaphor, not mine.

Maybe you just can't stand the thought of not being able to figure everything out for yourself?


When you say science and scholarship, I get this ill feeling that you are only speaking about the science and scholarship that fits into your little model.




posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 04:16 PM
link   
a reply to: TzarChasm




and thats what you describe as liberation or metamorphosis?


No, I was making a point about explaining something to someone who doesn't know what I'm talking about. I can most certainly point to it, and I did so numerous times on this thread. Perhaps you should re-read them.

If you need clarity on a particular point I've made. Ask.



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 04:20 PM
link   

originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: BlueMule




That doesn't explain why a smart guy like you hasn't stumbled onto the science and scholarship that could guide you out of your turbulent waters. That's your metaphor, not mine.

Maybe you just can't stand the thought of not being able to figure everything out for yourself?


When you say science and scholarship, I get this ill feeling that you are only speaking about the science and scholarship that fits into your little model.


OK, I hear you. If you give me a chance, I can change your mind about that! I have an idea about where to start. I'll give you an example of evidence that supports my position. It would be in the form of a 60 minute youtube vid. Are you willing to give me a chance to defend myself against your ill feeling?



edit on 931ThursdayuAmerica/ChicagoJuluThursdayAmerica/Chicago by BlueMule because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 04:22 PM
link   
a reply to: Aphorism




Besides "maya" or illusion, what, in concrete terms, have you liberated yourself from?


I never said I liberated my self.
edit on 24-7-2014 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 04:28 PM
link   
a reply to: BlueMule




OK, I hear you. If you give me a chance, I can change your mind about that! I have an idea about where to start. I'll give you an example of evidence that supports my position. It would be in the form of a 60 minute youtube vid. Are you willing to give me a chance to defend myself against your ill feeling?


Absolutely. However, I am unable to view a video at this time. I will have to watch it later on when I leave work. I will respond to it after then.



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 04:31 PM
link   
a reply to: Visitor2012

Excuse my error.

When you say "Liberation from Maya is what delivered me through all of it", what besides "maya" were you liberated from? And if you didn't liberate yourself, by what mechanism were you liberated? Who or what removed your shackles so to speak?



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 04:32 PM
link   

originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: BlueMule




OK, I hear you. If you give me a chance, I can change your mind about that! I have an idea about where to start. I'll give you an example of evidence that supports my position. It would be in the form of a 60 minute youtube vid. Are you willing to give me a chance to defend myself against your ill feeling?


Absolutely. However, I am unable to view a video at this time. I will have to watch it later on when I leave work. I will respond to it after then.



That's very big of you! I salute you for having the courage to challenge your philosophy.




posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 04:56 PM
link   
a reply to: BlueMule

Aah, the paranormal. It's quite a long video, but I will sacrifice my time for you, Mule. Hopefully he provides links to these papers, as the paranormal crowd is quite well known for fudging the results. But I will put that aside for now.



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 05:06 PM
link   

originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: BlueMule

Aah, the paranormal. It's quite a long video, but I will sacrifice my time for you, Mule. Hopefully he provides links to these papers, as the paranormal crowd is quite well known for fudging the results. But I will put that aside for now.



At the very least, it shows me that you are willing to invest a little time challenging your beliefs. That's respectable.




edit on 963Thursday000000America/ChicagoJul000000ThursdayAmerica/Chicago by BlueMule because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 05:10 PM
link   
a reply to: BlueMule




posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 05:16 PM
link   
a reply to: Aphorism

OK, fine. Let's say, challenging your philosophy of the body instead. The paranormal would force it to undergo a death and resurrection. That would mean your body has to have a new idea of itself, so YOU would have to undergo a death and resurrection. Your body's idea of itself (you) doesn't want that. Totally understandable.


edit on 971Thursday000000America/ChicagoJul000000ThursdayAmerica/Chicago by BlueMule because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 05:31 PM
link   

originally posted by: Aphorism
Besides "maya" or illusion, what, in concrete terms, have you liberated yourself from?


Strange these terms haven't been defined yet.

This is my take on some of these hard-to-define terms:

Maya (or Samsara): The way your mind thinks (or believes) that the world is supposed to be. This includes your worldview, desires, beliefs, how you see yourself, what you think you need, and what you think life is about. Being here brings all the joy and sorrow of everyday experience.

Metamorphosis: I don't like this term for things like this - makes it seem like its more paranormal than what is really going on. All that is being explained is a great change in behavior.

Revelation: This would be a specific experience of something not ordinarily experienced, that will show you things you haven't considered before. Though these are just changes in mind-states, they have the ability to show you how Samsara (your mind) really works.

Liberation: I would say this term is talking about permanent Enlightenment and liken this to Nirvana - I currently have no evidence that it exists and as such, disregard such concepts at this point. I know that there are small moments of freedom from the way you want things to be, but I can't say for certain that a permanent new state of mind like that exists.

People like to not talk about what was really learned in these experiences because words lack the ability to show how important these experiences were to only ourselves - it's all very personal. It's much easier to pretend that living in an astral projection in our own heads is showing us something big outside of ourselves, rather than showing us just how much our mind can delude us unto believing fantasy.

Also, about the OP. I agree that MANY (probably most) of the "spiritual" traditions lack any kind of practical fruits for the growth of our race, but it is a lazy generalization to say that all do. Buddhism (particularly Mahayana) says that the only thing worth doing in this life is to help people who are having a hard time (or "suffering" - read more here). Spiritual practices can help humanity, but only if we're honest with ourselves. If every person was okay with what they have and didn't need anything else, then the world would be a happier and more peaceful place.

For me, the lessons I learned in my path so far can be boiled down to this:

"Life has no intrinsic meaning, but since it's the only thing each of us have, it's the only thing that can matter."

"There can be no object without subject, and no subject without object." (not meant in a metaphysical way, so ask if clarification is needed)

Also, one more thing to point out. Buddhism recognizes 2 main ways of describing the same world - one Relative and one Ultimate (here is more on that)]. Ultimate is experienced by all objectively, but Relative is all we can ever really see of it (hence "Maya" or "Samsara"). Relative is different for each subject, but when you are awake and conscious (and your body is working correctly), your sense organs check your Relative with the Ultimate to make a very accurate model of the Ultimate inside of your head. Buddah said that asking metaphysical questions in regards to the Middle Path will not further your goals (as stated here):

"In every case, if it is not true, beneficial nor timely, one is not to say it. The Buddha followed this, for example, when asked questions of a purely metaphysical nature, unrelated to the goal, path or discipline that he taught. When asked a question such as "Is the universe eternal?", the Buddha dismissed the topic with the response: "It does not further." (or: "The personal possibilities (goals) assigned you are not furthered by an answer to an ultimate question about the universe's fate.")"

Basically, I agree with you Aphorism, but I think you tend to disregard the value of understanding the Relative a bit.



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 05:46 PM
link   

originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: BlueMule




one who does not believe in anything stands for nothing.



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 05:49 PM
link   

originally posted by: philosopheroftruth

originally posted by: Aphorism
Besides "maya" or illusion, what, in concrete terms, have you liberated yourself from?


Strange these terms haven't been defined yet.

This is my take on some of these hard-to-define terms:

Maya (or Samsara): The way your mind thinks (or believes) that the world is supposed to be. This includes your worldview, desires, beliefs, how you see yourself, what you think you need, and what you think life is about. Being here brings all the joy and sorrow of everyday experience.

Metamorphosis: I don't like this term for things like this - makes it seem like its more paranormal than what is really going on. All that is being explained is a great change in behavior.

Revelation: This would be a specific experience of something not ordinarily experienced, that will show you things you haven't considered before. Though these are just changes in mind-states, they have the ability to show you how Samsara (your mind) really works.

Liberation: I would say this term is talking about permanent Enlightenment and liken this to Nirvana - I currently have no evidence that it exists and as such, disregard such concepts at this point. I know that there are small moments of freedom from the way you want things to be, but I can't say for certain that a permanent new state of mind like that exists.

People like to not talk about what was really learned in these experiences because words lack the ability to show how important these experiences were to only ourselves - it's all very personal. It's much easier to pretend that living in an astral projection in our own heads is showing us something big outside of ourselves, rather than showing us just how much our mind can delude us unto believing fantasy.

Also, about the OP. I agree that MANY (probably most) of the "spiritual" traditions lack any kind of practical fruits for the growth of our race, but it is a lazy generalization to say that all do. Buddhism (particularly Mahayana) says that the only thing worth doing in this life is to help people who are having a hard time (or "suffering" - read more here). Spiritual practices can help humanity, but only if we're honest with ourselves. If every person was okay with what they have and didn't need anything else, then the world would be a happier and more peaceful place.

For me, the lessons I learned in my path so far can be boiled down to this:

"Life has no intrinsic meaning, but since it's the only thing each of us have, it's the only thing that can matter."

"There can be no object without subject, and no subject without object." (not meant in a metaphysical way, so ask if clarification is needed)

Also, one more thing to point out. Buddhism recognizes 2 main ways of describing the same world - one Relative and one Ultimate (here is more on that)]. Ultimate is experienced by all objectively, but Relative is all we can ever really see of it (hence "Maya" or "Samsara"). Relative is different for each subject, but when you are awake and conscious (and your body is working correctly), your sense organs check your Relative with the Ultimate to make a very accurate model of the Ultimate inside of your head. Buddah said that asking metaphysical questions in regards to the Middle Path will not further your goals (as stated here):

"In every case, if it is not true, beneficial nor timely, one is not to say it. The Buddha followed this, for example, when asked questions of a purely metaphysical nature, unrelated to the goal, path or discipline that he taught. When asked a question such as "Is the universe eternal?", the Buddha dismissed the topic with the response: "It does not further." (or: "The personal possibilities (goals) assigned you are not furthered by an answer to an ultimate question about the universe's fate.")"

Basically, I agree with you Aphorism, but I think you tend to disregard the value of understanding the Relative a bit.


bluemule i would ask that you refine these explanations as needed pertaining to your personal usage of these labels.



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 05:52 PM
link   

originally posted by: philosopheroftruth

originally posted by: Aphorism
Besides "maya" or illusion, what, in concrete terms, have you liberated yourself from?


Strange these terms haven't been defined yet.

This is my take on some of these hard-to-define terms:

Maya (or Samsara): The way your mind thinks (or believes) that the world is supposed to be. This includes your worldview, desires, beliefs, how you see yourself, what you think you need, and what you think life is about. Being here brings all the joy and sorrow of everyday experience.


Yes Maya includes all those things. But, in my experience there is more. Maya is spacetime itself. Maya is the waking state of consciousness and everything you experience in it. The dreaming state is Maya too, but the veil is a little thinner so you can stretch out with your mind easier. The dream state is psi-conducive. Beyond the dream state is deep dreamless sleep. Beyond that and you're outside of Maya, like Neo outside of The Matrix.

So when you're outside of Maya, you are outside of space and time and everything they hold. That's where metaphysical models come in. But they are only maps, and the map is not the territory. Still, they can be useful. Like clues. I find Buddhism helpful.


edit on 997Thursday000000America/ChicagoJul000000ThursdayAmerica/Chicago by BlueMule because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 06:12 PM
link   

originally posted by: BlueMule

originally posted by: philosopheroftruth

originally posted by: Aphorism
Besides "maya" or illusion, what, in concrete terms, have you liberated yourself from?


Strange these terms haven't been defined yet.

This is my take on some of these hard-to-define terms:

Maya (or Samsara): The way your mind thinks (or believes) that the world is supposed to be. This includes your worldview, desires, beliefs, how you see yourself, what you think you need, and what you think life is about. Being here brings all the joy and sorrow of everyday experience.


Yes Maya includes all those things. But, in my experience there is more. Maya is spacetime itself. Maya is the waking state of consciousness and everything you experience in it. The dreaming state is Maya too, but the veil is a little thinner so you can stretch out with your mind easier. The dream state is psi-conducive. Beyond the dream state is deep dreamless sleep. Beyond that and you're outside of Maya, like Neo outside of The Matrix.

So when you're outside of Maya, you are outside of space and time and everything they hold. That's where metaphysical models come in. But they are only maps, and the map is not the territory. Still, they can be useful. Like clues. I find Buddhism helpful.



i find it hard to believe that any organic lifeform is capable of experiencing timeless/spacelessness. biology is shackled to the laws of physics so it follows that any perception is likewise shackled. all experiences would have to be produced from an amalgamation of previously exsting sensory impressions and concepts derived from them.
edit on 24-7-2014 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 06:16 PM
link   

i find it hard to believe that any organic lifeform is capable of experiencing timeless/spacelessness. biology is shackled to the laws of physics and any perception is therefore shackled to those laws as well.


I guess that's why I left my body lying somewhere in the sands of time.




posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 06:28 PM
link   

originally posted by: BlueMule

i find it hard to believe that any organic lifeform is capable of experiencing timeless/spacelessness. biology is shackled to the laws of physics and any perception is therefore shackled to those laws as well.


I guess that's why I left my body lying somewhere in the sands of time.



did you employ the scientific method while researching such phenomena?



posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 06:30 PM
link   

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: BlueMule

i find it hard to believe that any organic lifeform is capable of experiencing timeless/spacelessness. biology is shackled to the laws of physics and any perception is therefore shackled to those laws as well.


I guess that's why I left my body lying somewhere in the sands of time.



did you employ the scientific method while researching such phenomena?


Well next time I leave time and space I'll be sure to bring a science lab.




posted on Jul, 24 2014 @ 06:35 PM
link   

originally posted by: BlueMule

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: BlueMule

i find it hard to believe that any organic lifeform is capable of experiencing timeless/spacelessness. biology is shackled to the laws of physics and any perception is therefore shackled to those laws as well.


I guess that's why I left my body lying somewhere in the sands of time.



did you employ the scientific method while researching such phenomena?


Well next time I leave time and space I'll be sure to bring a science lab.



without the scientific method, you can't verify anything except something really strange and wonderous happened inside your skull. and only you can verify that, which doesn't do anything for science. which means im hard pressed to take you more seriously than my kids talking to me about santa's flying reindeer.
edit on 24-7-2014 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



new topics

top topics



 
7
<< 8  9  10    12  13  14 >>

log in

join