Air-to-air Fragmentation Missile Hit The Malaysian MH17

a reply to: Blister

And your proof for ANY of the above is what exactly?

a reply to: Blister

Many SAM missiles have fragmentation warheads and you'll find that any explosion creates some debris which may exhibit similarities to fragmentation.

In other words, just because it looks like the airliner suffered damage from missile fragments does not necessarily mean it was a fragmentation warhead.

Regards

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

Proof? It is called theorizing.

Heck, if I had proof I'd be god.

Sadly, I am not god. Are you?

a reply to: paraphi

You are correct. However, in working with the OP, and the theory that air-to-air missiles downed the aircraft (which I suspect to be true) I do feel that exploring the technical aspects of the Ukrainian Air Force capabilities and missile technology is warranted.

Unless you are god as well, and deem such efforts pointless (?). Even then I suspect that I don't give a toss what you think.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: awakehuman

The alleged Spanish air traffic controller is full of crap. They were not diverted north at any time. They planned to fly over the Ukraine from the start. Which calls into question his claim of fighters too.

So according to you that alleged Spanish air traffic controller is full of crap yet the western version of events are not full of crap? where is the western governments evidence that the self defense forces brought it down?

Even after the plane crashed the western media quickly finger pointed at Putin without any proof.
These are the recent headline titles people in Brittan saw on there news papers
(Putin KILLED MY SON)
(Putin's Missile)

Looking forward for an response.

originally posted by: AreUKiddingMe
I'm leaning towards the theory that Putin was pissed about the newest round of sanctions imposed the day before the plane was shot down. Let's not forget he promised retaliations. The Buk missile launcher was operated by Russians, and the launcher was seen going back inside Russian territory after MH17 was shot down to hide the evidence. It was meant to wreak some havok and shoot down Ukrainian planes, and something went wrong and it hit a passenger jet, which had been flying that same flight path for weeks. Just my theory. Putin and Russia are to blame. The Prez is at Camp David this weekend and I figure there's more than just rest and relaxation going on there.

And with the way the bodies are being handled, with the Dutch not having access to them, and the mistreatment of the corpses, the Dutch are ENRAGED. Not just angry.

With things in Israel and Palestine as they are now, it really does look dangerous for us and the world right now. This could truly be WW3 in the making.

Putin and Russia are to blame based on what again? and why would Putin be pissed about the recent sanctions imposed the day before the plane was shot down?
Before the plane was shot down BRICS had established its own central bank which is an chess move.


You do realize the Ukrainian Military also have the Buk missile launcher?

My money is on air-to-air missiles too, I pasted this vid in another thread but I feel its more fitting here..

Look at the smoke trails from the BUK!



www.youtube.com...

It is the the separatist whodunit, no doubt in my mind now. They made a blunder, they should be put on trial for warcrimes.

a reply to: Zenem

I agree with you, Had a BUK been used there would be so many eye witnesses seeing the trail of the missile that there would be no questions as to who had done what.


Air to Air is where my money would go right now.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: St Udio

They also didn't see an air to air missile trail either.

And wasn't the missile monitored by american satellite?

originally posted by: marhaba
It is the the in my mind now. They made a blunder, they should be put on trial for warcrimes.

wow really? even after so many debates we had in on this issue only its separatist whodunit, no doubt care to explain what made you go to that conclusion?

I have to lol at this thread.. when you look at the members join date
from earlier this year...... Lol Lol

originally posted by: Now_Then

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: St Udio

They also didn't see an air to air missile trail either.

And wasn't the missile monitored by american satellite?

All Missiles whatever Russian, Ukrainian or what not are usually monitored surprised the satellite haven't picked it up on its data links.

a reply to: Agent_USA_Supporter

What has been picked up, or not, has yet to be revealed.

The fact that most of the Western world's governments with access to material from satellites and other surveillance were quick to suggest a missile from an area controlled pro Russians may imply they have evidence of some kind. Just because they have not released this does not mean it does not exist.

Perhaps, the politics here are about trying to give the Russians a way out.

Regards

a reply to: paraphi

Does it prove that Russia did? Nope. Judging from the thread it seems some have gotten the russophobia by claiming without proof that Russia really really did it.

Perhaps, the politics here are about trying to give the Russians a way out.

I would say rather its the opposite of it.

Regards.

Yeah, it's the usual "according to un-named U.S. officials" and "U.S. INTEL" crap, are these the same officials and intel that let their own embassy get torched in Benghazi, or the ones who let commercial airliners roam around what was apparently "the most well-defended airspace in the world" to go kamkaze? Or perhaps it's the same officials who declared Iraqs amazing arsenal (outwith the weapons they hadn't already sold them).

Incompetency doesn't do much for my trust levels in a government.

a reply to: AreUKiddingMe>>> Obama is out of the loop so don't expect anything from him. When he's given the position he's supposed to take, he'll repeat it as he reads it.
I think its possible this was all a set up. Putin is a player in all this, not a pawn like Obama but he's far higher up in the NWO. If they want a new cold war or a hot war , he'll go along willingly since it benefits him. So who shot down this plane down? I think it was diverted deliberately and shot down deliberately. They can blame the seperatists in Ukraine and say it was an accident, the end results are the same. I think it comes down to an impending global economic collapse and as well all know war is one sure fire way to get out of it. Erase old debts, get the people behind you against an enemy, get manufacturing going and get money spent on the government again without complaints.
Things don't look good in the middle east, I think that's where the hot war will be. Just a dog and pony show but that's where the oil is.

a reply to: AngryCymraeg
Yes, I hope you are right. Wasn't there somewhere in the past a passenger plane shot down because somebody did think it was spying? You never know in the spying busines how far they go to get some info on whatever important for getting the upperhand.

a reply to: zatara

Yes there was, in the Soviet Far East, KAL007 I think it was. Air-to-air missile from a SU-15.

Incidentally, Ukraine has form in shooting down passenger aircraft, having shot a Russian one down in 2001.

EDIT:
Was this the aircraft that downed MH-17? SU-27 Blue 45 in March 2014 (unarmed). Note the radar and fire control systems at the airbase, plus at-least three other SU-27's parked.

originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: Agent_USA_Supporter

What has been picked up, or not, has yet to be revealed.

The fact that most of the Western world's governments with access to material from satellites and other surveillance were quick to suggest a missile from an area controlled pro Russians may imply they have evidence of some kind. Just because they have not released this does not mean it does not exist.

Perhaps, the politics here are about trying to give the Russians a way out.

Regards

I tend to agree with this.
Also, if you read the Ggole translate of the Russian language comments on the "computer evidence" Youtube "evidence" disputed it seems there are tricks with this - time zones, GMT, UTC, reposting, deleting etc.
Please correct me if you are an expert, but the guy talking in the video in US English just doesn't sound like an expert to me, just an informed civilian too sure of his being in the right.

The technical info (what type of missile) again sounds to me like it could be argued both ways - separatists (or even Russians) or Ukrainians.
However, there are two big question marks in my mind, as a non-committed person to either "side", having grown up in Eastern Europe. Actually, three.

1. What gains would seriously have the Kiev government by shooting down a bunch of Dutch etc. including 80 children? They would have to misuse their national air controller network, cover all the tracks, remove all leaks of info to the military - risk their very existence and organize a huge conspiracy - for precisely what gains?

Now, I grant you they are anti-Russian, and they co-operate with and include far rightists, even some local Nazis.
Don't tell me that yes, they would risk this merely to put the blame on the Russians - that's not the logic of effective warfare or planning. That is the sound of total paranoia, of the psychiatric kind, the kind we have been hearing from Palestinians and Israelis.

I just don't think the Kiev "junta" is that efficient, neither that it is so evil to the boot. To murder 300 foreign civilians in cold blood - with the aid and abetting of the state and its facilities, for no tangible gain but merely to stage a dangerous and risky PR operation which could backfire? In a world where rockets are - recorded by satellites? And airline controllers are recorded?

Just think, please people - if the slightest evidence comes out that it's the government, they are done for. They would be far more culpable than if the armed rebels fired a mistaken shot which is cloesest to the now prevalent MSM theory.

2. The Ukrainian military so far appeared to be far less organized and efficient recently than the Russian one. Remember the Crimea? How the Russians took several ports, all the hardware, and blocked path to the UA ships? Remember arms seized by the Russian-backed rebels? Try doing that to the IDF and you will see...

The fact that they bombed a few sites (again a mistaken and inefficient stategy), and that some of them are obviously full of hatred and paranoia does not make them as efficient as to organize this terrorist act which would require a large conspiracy planned for decades to come with secrecy - merely for a dubious PR fame.
Just compare: if 911 was not done by the Arab terrorists the USG ascribed it to, whoever organized luring the US into it was far more intelligent - and there are several parties with cui bono interests.
But is there anyone here? The State of Ukraine would risk everything - everything, its very existence, and all the support of independence and all the money from the West for decades to come, if the slightest evidence turns out that the State murdered innocent foreign civilians - and look how efficient they have been recently. Angry, nationalistic, yes. Efficient, no.

Could State Air Force commanders strike out on their own, without orders, and launch rocket missiles? Not likely. Could a rebel army that is currently fighting a state anywhere in the world? Yes, easily, and they have actually done similar things.

If military airplanes fired the shots - don't they recognize a Boeing from far closer in the air than the earth missile launchers?

It is just far easier to conceive that a rebel commander tried their recently seized weapons cache on something they could not even identify well (maybe they do not have access to state communications).

3. How on earth are these "rebels" so well equipped and trained? I mean, there hasn't been so much time. This isn't the Congo whre fighting has gone on for decades. The conflict erupted this spring, and here they are, suddenly with tanks, all ground forces with sophisicated and expensive hand weapons, all in uniforms etc. They surely surpass the Hamas operatives.

People, the Ukraine is a poor country. I don't even understand how these folks can be away from work for months on end. In this part of the world, over 80% of people cannot even go on a two-week holiday annually.
It's OK people protested for weeks on Maidan but - this is a professional army. We're not talking about a bunch of dissatisfied civilians spending the grandmother's coffin money on a bootleg AK-47. Do you know how much a tank costs these days by the way?

How on earth do you get tanks, flamethrowers - and recently even anti-aircraft missiles (whether they used them in this case or not)? I mean third world dictators usually buy stuff like that, not Eastern European civilians afraid of possible ethnic violence.

Which means that rationally speaking, these guys are far, far from being innocent and well-meaning. They have BIG money and professional weaponry and training behind them.

I'm surprised no one catches on that.