Air-to-air Fragmentation Missile Hit The Malaysian MH17

a reply to: Zaphod58

Donetsk airport is out of order. Crashed airliner was led by the Dnepropetrovsk center of "UkSATSE." The big boss in this city, everyone knows - Kolomoisky. And when you consider that the way of the airplane paves not the navigator, but ground controllers, then there are legitimate questions as to why the plane sharply deviated from the normal trajectory?

Crashed MH17 flight 'was 300 miles off typical course


Kolomoisky against Poroshenko?

a reply to: maghun

That airport has nothing to do with anything. They're controlled by controllers that aren't necessarily at an airport.

Yes they're controlled on the ground based on the flight plan the pilots filed that has their routing on it. The controllers ensure separation and that they're flying to the right waypoints, etc, but have nothing to do with setting the course initially.

It didn't sharply deviate from anything. They were fairly close to their filed flight plan after making adjustments for winds aloft.

I'm leaning towards the theory that Putin was pissed about the newest round of sanctions imposed the day before the plane was shot down. Let's not forget he promised retaliations. The Buk missile launcher was operated by Russians, and the launcher was seen going back inside Russian territory after MH17 was shot down to hide the evidence. It was meant to wreak some havok and shoot down Ukrainian planes, and something went wrong and it hit a passenger jet, which had been flying that same flight path for weeks. Just my theory. Putin and Russia are to blame. The Prez is at Camp David this weekend and I figure there's more than just rest and relaxation going on there.

And with the way the bodies are being handled, with the Dutch not having access to them, and the mistreatment of the corpses, the Dutch are ENRAGED. Not just angry.

With things in Israel and Palestine as they are now, it really does look dangerous for us and the world right now. This could truly be WW3 in the making.

originally posted by: aLLeKs
I am pretty sure it was an accident, neither side would be studid enough to shoot it down on purpose.
And if it was shot down on purpose, it would most likely have been done by Kiev, since they are the only ones that profit from it.
Every nation has already made up their mind that it was the seperatists with Russian help.

Agreed, it just seems that everyone is just so keen to put the boot in on Russia. This reminds me of the lead up to the Iraq war and Libya, lots of accusaions and circumstantial evidence used as an excuse to go blow the crap out of them.

originally posted by: AreUKiddingMe
I'm leaning towards the theory that Putin was pissed about the newest round of sanctions imposed the day before the plane was shot down. Let's not forget he promised retaliations. The Buk missile launcher was operated by Russians, and the launcher was seen going back inside Russian territory after MH17 was shot down to hide the evidence. It was meant to wreak some havok and shoot down Ukrainian planes, and something went wrong and it hit a passenger jet, which had been flying that same flight path for weeks. Just my theory. Putin and Russia are to blame. The Prez is at Camp David this weekend and I figure there's more than just rest and relaxation going on there.

And with the way the bodies are being handled, with the Dutch not having access to them, and the mistreatment of the corpses, the Dutch are ENRAGED. Not just angry.

With things in Israel and Palestine as they are now, it really does look dangerous for us and the world right now. This could truly be WW3 in the making.

To me, the West knew those BUK missile launchers were there, and baited them to launch by getting a couple of fighter jets to fly underneath or around the jet. Or maybe those fighter jets were using the MH17 as a shadow.

This is going to either go down to one trigger-happy Russian or sneakiness by the West. Maybe both.

originally posted by: AreUKiddingMe

And with the way the bodies are being handled, with the Dutch not having access to them, and the mistreatment of the corpses, the Dutch are ENRAGED. Not just angry.

With things in Israel and Palestine as they are now, it really does look dangerous for us and the world right now. This could truly be WW3 in the making.

Where is the link between this event and accidental shooting down of the plane (by WHOEVER, for me it's entire IRRELEVANT who shot down the plane) and Palestine/Israel?

"With things in Israel and Palestine as they are now" --- everyone saying this must be very young. Because those "things" between Israel and Palestine go on forever already. Gaza strip violence etc. was one main topic I remember on the news back several DECADES. You know how many "opportunities" there were in the past for WW3 to spawn because of violence in the GAZA strip? Let me just make a rough guess: LIKE ... INFINITE?

The photos do show the impact of a Continuous-rod warhead.
but all anti air missile use Continuous-rod warheads

Both surface to air and air to air.

The only difference is larger surface to air missiles have a thicker rod of around 1/2 inch square rods or two layers of around 3/8 rods where air to air like the AIM-9 uses around 3/8 inch square rod.

In 1969 i worked doing high speed photography in the explosive ordnance evaluation dept at this site at China Lake doing weapons testing.
en.wikipedia.org.../File:CRWarheadTest.jpg
www.chinalakealumni.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.navair.navy.mil...

Also the russian K-13/R-3S missile ... a copy of the US SIDEWINDER AIM-9 uses the same type warhead.

So its just as likely if it was air to air that the russian did it.

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

Sorry if my reply had one sentence that wasn't entirely on-topic but it is part of the overall picture.

As for age? No I'm not very young. Yes the conflict has been going on forever. But each time it escalates a little more. This time there are no real mediators to negotiate a cease-fire. Back on topic though. We return you now to your regularly scheduled programming. If this had been a Real emergency you would have been instructed to bend over and place your head between your knees and kiss your butt goodbye. :-)

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: maghun
It didn't sharply deviate from anything. They were fairly close to their filed flight plan after making adjustments for winds aloft.

Which brings us back to the original problem, who authorizes a civilian airliner to fly over a zone that is a known war zone. Where the warring parties, have officially declared a "no fly zone".

It's not like this conflict started yesterday, and this poor pilot didn't know. If this is not a deviation from the route, than somewhere somebody agreed for an airliner to fly over a war zone.

If that's someone in the US, or Holland ... that's the person who is at fault here. Because anyone with a brain, should have reacted right out from the first ... at the fact, that an airliner is flying over this area.

And Ukranian authorities, if they were alert, should have immediately routed the plane away from this zone. Ukranian authorities know, that several planes have shot down in this area during the past days, even. Which make it directly their responsibility to reroute the plane out of this area.

No matter how you try to twist this, this is ultimately the responsibility of irresponsible jerks who either deliverately or not, allowed this plane to fly ove a danger zone, opening up the possibility for it to be shot down.

And then, on top of everything ... try to use the deaths of almost 300 innocent people, as a bargaining chip in a war.

originally posted by: samsamm9

originally posted by: Nikola014
You mean, there's a possibility that Russia didn't do it? What? But, but, the Russians man?!

I'm convinced Russia did not do it.
No theories about why I think that. Just a hunch and also something called logic.

I am also pretty convinced Russia did not do it...........BUT. I also think Russian backed rebels did have something to do with this and they were using Russian weapons.



Why.........Follow the path of least resistance in your mind. Could I be wrong....Yep. But I am willing to bet I am right.

originally posted by: SubTruth
I am also pretty convinced Russia did not do it...........BUT. I also think Russian backed rebels did have something to do with this and they were using Russian weapons.

What sort of nonsense is this "Russa doing it?". What are you babbling about.

The rebels firing a missile over a declared "no fly zone" isn't anything new. And why are they rebels? Don't they have the right to their own state? WHy not, because they're russians ... you're just a brainwashed fool. If it's a Russian who wants freedom ... he's a rebel.

And what ... are you such a retard, that you'd allow your wife and children to fly over a warzone? If you really are such a retard, tell your wife to file for a divorce ... she's better of without you.

The blame is on those, who allow this plane to fly over this area ... knowing that only days ago, military aircraft were being shot down over it.

Folks, innit a bit eery how quickly this thing took the heat off of Israeli decimation of eight kids in front of journalist hotel in Gaza?
The scenario... Hamas 'leaks' intel that kids are being used to ferry bomb parts. IDF Navy rockets the shed, then terminates four more kids in second salvo. Journalist filled hotel gets the word out quickly.
Now what possible aircraft co. would garner more immediate worldwide attention that a Malaysian Airline full of AIDS docs?

I'm betting on Mossad with their deep Russian tentacles, snuck into Russian or Ukranian SAM vehicle, launched and walked away whistling a merry tune. Everyone too embarrassed to admit their launcher was at fault, doesn't matter whose. Russians would have an easier time hiding ordinance inventory reduction.
Russian 'seperatists' and right wing thugs have no love for AIDS cure, same goes for old school Irgun types.
Everyone treating this like Ukraine is in a goldfish bowl. PishPosh.
Even Putin won't feck with the mafia, and they are linked with Israeli ops from way back.

Watch for another atrocity if the world opinion sways in favor of Gaza. These folks are seriously messed up and more lucky than competent.

originally posted by: AreUKiddingMe
I'm leaning towards the theory that Putin was pissed about the newest round of sanctions imposed the day before the plane was shot down. Let's not forget he promised retaliations. The Buk missile launcher was operated by Russians, and the launcher was seen going back inside Russian territory after MH17 was shot down to hide the evidence. It was meant to wreak some havok and shoot down Ukrainian planes, and something went wrong and it hit a passenger jet, which had been flying that same flight path for weeks. Just my theory. Putin and Russia are to blame. The Prez is at Camp David this weekend and I figure there's more than just rest and relaxation going on there.

And with the way the bodies are being handled, with the Dutch not having access to them, and the mistreatment of the corpses, the Dutch are ENRAGED. Not just angry.

With things in Israel and Palestine as they are now, it really does look dangerous for us and the world right now. This could truly be WW3 in the making.

To make matters worse there are also reports that the dead people are trying to use their credit cards. Which means that some sick scumbags have been stealing from the bodies.

originally posted by: bjarneorn

originally posted by: SubTruth
I am also pretty convinced Russia did not do it...........BUT. I also think Russian backed rebels did have something to do with this and they were using Russian weapons.

What sort of nonsense is this "Russa doing it?". What are you babbling about.

The rebels firing a missile over a declared "no fly zone" isn't anything new. And why are they rebels? Don't they have the right to their own state? WHy not, because they're russians ... you're just a brainwashed fool. If it's a Russian who wants freedom ... he's a rebel.

And what ... are you such a retard, that you'd allow your wife and children to fly over a warzone? If you really are such a retard, tell your wife to file for a divorce ... she's better of without you.

The blame is on those, who allow this plane to fly over this area ... knowing that only days ago, military aircraft were being shot down over it.

It was NOT a no-fly zone. It was an area with height restrictions - commercial aircraft were being advised not to fly below 32,000 feet. By the way, how did those rebels get access to a sophisticated ground-to-air missile like the one that shot the place down?

So, it seems that the more we look, the more suspicion falls upon the Ukrainian Air Force.

Personally, I suspect that the presence or not of BUK anti-air systems is a distraction. The confiscation of air traffic records by the Ukrainian government and the rumors that Ukrainian fighters were tracking MH17 support the thesis that one or two air to air missiles were used to down the airliner.

Whilst much is not yet known, it seems possible (if not yet likely), that at-least one SU27 (Flanker) probably based at Myrhorod, Poltavs'ka oblast, Ukraine, fired one or two air-to-air missiles at MH17.

We can see in this picture, below, the weaponry carried by the SU27, Blue-45:

Source: su...-##.###/photo-armed-ukranian-su-27/
Both Vympel R-27 (AA-10 Alamo) and Vympel R-73 (AA-11 Archer) missile are clearly visible on the above Ukrainian SU27. Here is a close-up of a Russian SU27 with layout of the missiles:

Source: www.alasrojas.com...

If I was pushed and had to guess which missile was used, my money would be on the R27. Not sure what variants the Ukrainian Air Force has, so would not be keen to give opinion. Does anyone have info on air unit deployments from Myrhorod recently? Given its proximity to Luhansk and Donetsk regions, more attention needs to be paid in that direction I feel.

a reply to: Blister

Except people witnessed the use of the missile launchers and their hasty recovery back into Russia.

The problem with your theory is that you have to find a pilot who will deliberately shoot down an airliner and then cover it up. That is not possible as the number of people in the conspiracy is too great e.g. the pilot, ground crew, controllers and so on.

More likely is that a trigger happy person on the ground who has been taking pot shots are Ukraine went too far. Who knows what happened to the person who pressed the button, but as human rights organisations have recently published reports of the brutality of the pro Russian separatists, he's probably in a shallow grave.

Regards

Perhaps we should start a new thread..

"The Return of the Russian Troll"
/

a reply to: paraphi

Huh, so you are totally dissing the air-to-air fragmentation missile aspect of this thread.

Obviously you got the wrong thread...

As for me, I'm working with the OP in trying to explore the thesis the OP posits. It's easy to dismiss it. But it ain't the point of the thread, troll.

originally posted by: ABNARTY
a reply to: awakehuman

I have no dog in this fight but those holes could have been made by A2A or G2A. Anything exploding near aircraft aluminum would look similar.

HOWEVER, I have heard about the Su-27's following the airliner too. Very interesting.

Maybe Malaysia Airlines made a deal to spy for the (....) and was Russia on to them. This includes the disappearance of the other MH plane. Some say coincedences do not exist...Wow ... this can go deep and are the intelligence bureaus of differenent nations very busy to cover-up the truth for the world.

originally posted by: zatara

originally posted by: ABNARTY
a reply to: awakehuman

I have no dog in this fight but those holes could have been made by A2A or G2A. Anything exploding near aircraft aluminum would look similar.

HOWEVER, I have heard about the Su-27's following the airliner too. Very interesting.

Maybe Malaysia Airlines made a deal to spy for the (....) and was Russia on to them. This includes the disappearance of the other MH plane. Some say coincedences do not exist...Wow ... this can go deep and are the intelligence bureaus of differenent nations very busy to cover-up the truth for the world.

Spy with what? Come to that, spy on what?? Maybe it was actually a plane filled with ordinary people flying from Amsterdam to KL.