It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Why Kiev Brought Down Flight MH-17…

page: 2
28
<< 1    3  4  5 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jul, 19 2014 @ 02:04 PM
link   
a reply to: Battleline




This is most likely a BAD mistake by someone that had already shot down Ukrainian military transports thinking the liner was another transport.


That's the point people need to remember, nobody is actually saying it was done on purpose but that it was a misidentified aircraft that got shot down.




posted on Jul, 19 2014 @ 02:07 PM
link   
a reply to: Adaluncatif




. The plane would never have been shot down if the Kiev government wasn't sending its troops to this area.


So let me see if I get this right...your saying that Ukraine doesn't have the right to send troops anywhere in their own country?

And please explain how that is even a logical statement, because last time I checked that was still part of Ukraine.



posted on Jul, 19 2014 @ 02:16 PM
link   
I don't buy it. But then again I am trying to keep a open mind, though I do lean towards some trigger happy idiot separatist firing the shot without authorization.

So, I'm also wondering if the separatists and Pro-Russians are such stand up people, why are they blocking and hindering access to the site?

Could it be that they are muddying up the waters because they know their side messed up?



posted on Jul, 19 2014 @ 02:18 PM
link   
a reply to: Adaluncatif




Obama wants the rebels to stop fighting, which means surrendering to a government that has banned them from speaking their own language and drops bombs on their civilian infrastructure, murdering innocent civilians on a daily basis.


Actually he had this to say about the Russian language...


Poroshenko insisted that Ukrainian would remain the sole state language of the country but promised
'new opportunities for the Russian language,' without giving specifics.


www.dailymail.co.uk... l

It is like the US where we have English as the our language we still allow other cultures to speak in their native tongue. Nobody denies them that right but if you don't understand someone how do you communicate with them?

And why aren't they still shelling those innocent people anymore...that's right the separatists have left those areas.

If you are using human shields such as the separatists did you will have as unfortunate as it is civilian casualties.



posted on Jul, 19 2014 @ 02:20 PM
link   
a reply to: TDawgRex




Could it be that they are muddying up the waters because they know their side messed up?


There is video of them picking up debris and throwing it into a truck, so how can they not be muddying up the waters?



posted on Jul, 19 2014 @ 02:21 PM
link   

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: MALBOSIA




Is the international community asking Russia to send troops into Eastern Ukraine to secure the crash zone for investigators? I am confused. This is Ukraine. They are responsible for their own country. If they would like Russia to come back and get things back to normal, all they have to do is ask.


The problem is although this is in Ukraine it is in an area controlled by separatists that aren't allowing investigators to do their jobs.

If Ukraine could get there they would. As for asking Russia for help...I think they have already helped enough in Ukraine.


So what do you want Russia to do about it? Are they guilty of this crash because of Ukrainians in Ukraine?

And what do you mean "they have helped enough" ? Everything has gone to hell in Ukraine since Russia was told they were not welcome.

The Ukraine government obviously has no leadership ability and require others to hold their hand.



posted on Jul, 19 2014 @ 02:24 PM
link   

tsurfer2000h: So let me see if I get this right...your saying that Ukraine doesn't have the right to send troops anywhere in their own country?
This coup (not election installed) government does not have that right because large parts of “their” country want nothing to do with them.
If e.g. the Scottish people vote for independence from Britain, should we British then just murder their men women & children? I call that Stone Age behaviour –which at the very least became unfashionable in the rest of Europe, at least several centuries ago.

Further to that: Unlike older, and more established, countries such as Britain-America large parts of Ukraine should never (had democracy always been respected) been included in Ukraine, in the first instance.

I concede: The right for people to determine their own government will not be popular with many Americans, not least as they don’t really enjoy this power today (unlike say their more freedom loving, freedom deserving, ancestors).

But: What makes the current rebellion against Kiev especially justified is the policies of cultural and racial discrimination they have imposed upon ethnic Russians. This is why the people on the ground are desperate not to be part of Kiev’s vision for Ukraine, and it’s why their resistance is more than 100% justified.

If Kiev wasn’t so racist, or violence prone, people wouldn’t be fighting nearly so hard against them (for what can only be called self-determination).

The bribing of a few Russian journalists to speak negatively of Russia, doesn't change any of this.



posted on Jul, 19 2014 @ 02:31 PM
link   
a reply to: MALBOSIA




And what do you mean "they have helped enough" ? Everything has gone to hell in Ukraine since Russia was told they were not welcome.


Well when your supplying arms to a separatists group one should understand why they are not welcome.

Causing this whole situation is what I mean by "they have helped enough".



posted on Jul, 19 2014 @ 02:41 PM
link   
a reply to: Liberal1984




If Kiev wasn’t so racist, or violence prone, people wouldn’t be fighting nearly so hard against them (for what can only be called self-determination).


And the Russian are any better, and where is the evidence they are so racist and violence proned. None of the situation in Eastern Ukraine would be the way it is had Putin not shaken a hornets nest than decided to run away.

Is it because they are defending their sovereign nation against an armed insurgency backed by Russia, which is well within the rights of the Ukraine gov't to protect it's sovereignty from armed intruders.




But: What makes the current rebellion against Kiev especially justified is the policies of cultural and racial discrimination they have imposed upon ethnic Russians. This is why the people on the ground are desperate not to be part of Kiev’s vision for Ukraine, and it’s why their resistance is more than 100% justified.


No that is what Putin is trying to use as his excuse for what is happening in Ukraine without any evidence to prove this, and he has been asked to provide such evidence and has yet to produce it.




The bribing of a few Russian journalists to speak negatively of Russia, doesn't change any of this.


Anything that can back this claim up?



posted on Jul, 19 2014 @ 02:42 PM
link   
Sounds like somebody has an agenda here methinks. Anyone who can read knows the people in Kiev aren't the elected government. What allegiance does anyone owe to them? Nobody voted for them. They used brute force to oust the man people did vote for. All funded by american tax dollars courtesy of Soros, the CIA, and the National Endowment for Democracy. Anyone portraying to care about the situation in Ukraine while not acknowledging the fact that the gov in Kiev isn't legitimate isn't being honest with themselves or anyone else. Stop spreading your disinformation about how bad the people in Donetsk are. If me and a couple hundred other people came and overthrew your government I'm sure you wouldn't just start following the rules I laid down for you. At least be honest with yourself, we already know you are lying to us.

Kiev and the U.S. are clearly the only two groups who benefit from this whole fiasco. Kiev has been getting owned on the battlefield. Europe was rather reluctant to join in with that last round of sanctions. How convenient suddenly they all get a cause they can rally behind.
edit on 19-7-2014 by rustyclutch because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 19 2014 @ 02:55 PM
link   
a reply to: rustyclutch




Anyone who can read knows the people in Kiev aren't the elected government


You may want to contact Putin with this info as he recognizes the newly elected government as the real deal.

www.theguardian.com...

www.bbc.com...



posted on Jul, 19 2014 @ 03:37 PM
link   

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: rustyclutch




Anyone who can read knows the people in Kiev aren't the elected government


You may want to contact Putin with this info as he recognizes the newly elected government as the real deal.

www.theguardian.com...

www.bbc.com...


That negates what about them overthrowing the old government by force? That makes them illegitimate in the eyes of people in Ukraine and that's really all that matters. Putins opinion is just that, his opinion. He doesn't have to live under their rule.



posted on Jul, 19 2014 @ 03:46 PM
link   
a reply to: rustyclutch




That negates what about them overthrowing the old government by force? That makes them illegitimate in the eyes of people in Ukraine and that's really all that matters. Putins opinion is just that, his opinion. He doesn't have to live under their rule.


Did you not make this statement...



Anyone who can read knows the people in Kiev aren't the elected government.


To which I showed you that they are recognized as the elected government and Putin sees them that way, so what are you trying to say?

You do know it was the people of Ukraine who voted for this government, so how are they illegitimate in the eyes of the people of Ukraine when they voted them in?

What Putin opinion are you talking about as it was not his opinion it is a fact they are the legitimately elected government and he recognizes this.



posted on Jul, 19 2014 @ 04:21 PM
link   
Nevertheless, Russia should provide all available help to secure and remove vital parts and remains from this crash site. Even if it requires Putin to publicly ask separatist leaders to do needful in assisting international parties approach and carry out their duties.

Russia need not send troops to secure the area. Mere verbal request should be enough.

It is a matter of minimum human dignity of those who lost their lives in the crash. Separatists should not only comply but also offer extra assistance.



posted on Jul, 19 2014 @ 04:25 PM
link   
a reply to: tsurfer2000h



About 30 officials, mostly from the Organization of Security and Cooperation in Europe, arrived at the crash site. The rebels allowed the officials to carry out a partial and superficial inspection.


Would be nice to see some Russian participation since they are a member of this organization too, I wonder if they were invited? link

The rebels apparently did allow a partial inspection, I wonder why so many posters are saying that the rebels are blocking the site off from inspection?



posted on Jul, 19 2014 @ 05:10 PM
link   

originally posted by: gladtobehere
a reply to: Liberal1984

Holy wall of text. May I be so bold as to ask for the executive summary?

All I know is (well, not ALL I know), that when the EU/US/NATO backed protestors wanted to overthrow the government, Viktor Yanukovych's government reacted with limited force. He could have come down on them like a ton of bricks but he didnt. He basically stepped down.

As you well know protestors (not armed with Russian sub machine guns) were killed and that is why he revoked the hastily introduced anto-protesting law.


After the installation of the EU/US/NATO approved puppet, once again there were protestors who wanted to overthrow or were anti-government. The difference? This Petro Poroshenko has unleashed unholy hell on these people.

"Installation" of exactly the same ELECTED members of parliament minus Yanokovych. Stop trying to mislead people.


Ukraine attacks with chemicals, destroys schools and hospitals and kills unarmed citizens (News).

Unverified rebel propaganda which you are re-gurgitating. Surely some original quoted material would at least add credibility.


Are we witnessing the beginning of ethnic cleansing in Ukraine?

Wow let's bring in the NAZI ethnic cleansing line. Straight out of Putins' handbook. You do realise the "Nazi" label is pure psychology don't you? You have read th history of the region? You have read the history of Putin ? You have read the history of where Putin was born?

Obviously not........ Oh hang on. An older thread.....hmmm History books re inconvenient.


I dont know who shot down that plane but if I had to pick one of the two groups, I'd have to go with the West's latest and greatest mad man, Petro Poroshenko.

Well you have to don't you........make sure you work out lots of excuses for the disgusting behaviour of the rebels at the crash site. Coverup behaviour big time!!!!!!



posted on Jul, 19 2014 @ 05:30 PM
link   
a reply to: jaws1975




The rebels apparently did allow a partial inspection, I wonder why so many posters are saying that the rebels are blocking the site off from inspection?


The inspectors that are there were only allowed to be in a certain area and not allowed access to the whole crash site.

Also they the separatists have already contaminated the crash site by walking all around in it, and clearing debris before anyone has really been able to see the site.



posted on Jul, 19 2014 @ 05:47 PM
link   
a reply to: Liberal1984

How can you claim the Government is not elected? It is the same MP's who were voted in from the 2012 election.

The Government post-Yukanovich was made up of previously elected MP's and there has just been a Presidential election in May, which has been recognised as legitimate by Russia, with the new Cabinet being made up of the same MP's who were voted in prior to Yukanovich being ousted.

Do enlighten me, which part of the Government is "unelected"?

As for the bit about "what if Scotland voted for independence and we went and shot them" - not even the same. For starters, the "referendum" they had for joining Russia was widely (even in Russia) not viewed as legitimate, people voted multiple times, people came from over the border to vote who had no right and there was no independent monitoring of the electoral process, which was organised hastily inside of a week. No election organised in a week could be viewed as legitimate.

To make your analogy with Scotland work, it would be the same as a small group of Highlanders having a vote amongst themselves that they organised in a week, deciding they spoke for everyone else, then took up arms against the Government.



posted on Jul, 19 2014 @ 05:58 PM
link   
a reply to: tsurfer2000h

They voted in Donetsk to leave Ukraine too. Outsiders don't get to determine what's right and what's not. Again, they aren't the ones that have to live with anything. The government in Ukraine and my crooked government are such cowards. They should just declare war on Russia. It's not like anyone with eyes hasn't seen America surrounding Russia over the years. The whole crisis that took place in Ukraine was a CIA operation. The CIA is still there. Same thing they did with the Arab Spring. I've been watching their handiwork on television for a few years now.

Who cares what The government in Kiev want's....who cares what putin thinks....It's about what the people who have to live their lives there want. If it's okay for one group to overthrow the the government with force, then it's equally okay for another group to fight the new regime and try to overthrow them. For some reason whats good for the goose isn't what's good for the gander with some people apparently.



posted on Jul, 19 2014 @ 06:04 PM
link   
a reply to: jaws1975




The rebels apparently did allow a partial inspection,

Define partial and why wouldn't they let the inspectors inspect what they want ?
From what I've seen and read it looks almost certain that the rebels committed this act of mass murder , probably by mistake that that will be no comport to the grieving families of the lost.


edit on 19-7-2014 by gortex because: (no reason given)



new topics

top topics



 
28
<< 1    3  4  5 >>

log in

join