Who is responsible for the malaysian flight being shot down

I say, that the focus on this issue is wrong.

The flight is clearly being altered before it enters Ukraine, and directed to fly over a no fly zone. In my mind, the crime is in directing this plane to fly over a war zone. That directing the flight to fly there, is equivalent to setting them up to be shot down.

Everything is being done, to put this on the rebels. Be that as it may, but in my mind, those who directed the flight there are ultimately responsible. Because anyone on the ground, has no idea what he is shooting at. And since it's a no fly zone, he is most certainly not expecting a commercial airliner.

These people were sacrificed, for the purpose of altering the stale mate in the crimean situation. Since the rebels acquired their anti-aircraft missiles, these made it impossible for Ukranians to rule the sky.

In the end, it's who benefits that is ultimately responsible.

This is another one of those "who dun its" that im not sure that anyone will be fully satisfied with an answer besides a country (or terrorist organisation) officially admitting "we did it".

The fact that no one has really fully committed to its purposeful destruction, makes me think no one ever will, which means this is gunna go round and round and round endlessly for weeks, months, years etc.

One thing is fairly evident, there wont be any justice for those killed and their family's. A very sad event for sure

I agree with you totally.
So was it Ukraine air traffic control who directed the flight path & are the Ukrainians backed by the US?
I'm just asking.

a reply to: bjarneorn
For gawd sake, here we go again with the stuff that started up a bunch of the BAD 911 theories. Folks not understanding aviation. A “Flight restriction” is not the same as a “No Fly Zone”, they are different things, thus they have different names. There was a 'No Fly Zone' over Crimea only, there was a 'Flight Restriction' over this area. In the eyes of the aviation authority the 26K and later 32K flight restriction was enough to place any civilian aircraft above anything that the Ukrainians believed could hit the aircraft, and as such they allowed flights over that altitude through the area. This was NOT the only aircraft going through there, and all the others made it through safely.

Now who's fault is it?
Its Russia's. The Ukraine is allowed to legally fly any aircraft through their airspace they want, the Russians and the Separatists have ZERO right to interfere with that. They should have never given that level of equipment to the separatists to begin with. Shooting at things in another countries airspace is a crime, even during a rebellion, no matter what their gripe with the Ukrainian government might possibly be.

BTW...Notice that Russia suddenly packed up its missile launchers on flatbeds, and got them out of the country in a damn big hurry after this. Yeah, that's because this was their fault, 100%, and they damn well know it.

never disagreed with a moderator on here before, so lets hope this doesn't end badly for me. in my opinion, it was shot down in ukrainian air space, and by ukrainian citizens (separatists or not, after no one in the west recognized their break-away and called it illegal) you either call the individuals criminals, or you say the ukrainian government backed this. you can't just blame this on russia because you don't like them, after all, they owned crimea since before the US was even thought of.

The blame belongs goes to the following.

The Russian Federation for giving rebels the ability to shoot down aircraft

The Separatists for shooting down a civilian flight

Ukraine for diverting the flight after they knew about recent attacks on aircraft in that region

Whoa, hold on. As the comment above says, this was not a no-fly zone.

They were not diverted into it.


There had been an advisory that airlines may want to avoid the region. British Airways was diverting planes around Ukraine, Malaysian Airlines, Lufthansa, and many others were not.

This was just an advisory, it was still considered perfectly safe to fly over Ukraine.


At the point at which this plan was shot down, there were 7 or 8 other airliners still in the immediate vacinity. And hundreds within Ukrainian airspace. This was not a lone airplane sent into the area to die.

originally posted by: fixitwcw
ukrainian air space

Keyword here...
Ukrainian airspace. That means they have a LEGAL RIGHT to fly anything they want in that area, and anyone shooting at it is committing a crime and terrorism. Anyone supplying that equipment to them is also engaged in terrorism. Giving them that level of equipment (stuff that could go to 40K feet) was not only terrorism, but extremely irresponsible.

Think about it in these terms...
If Iran did the same thing on US soil, what would we call it?

originally posted by: fixitwcw
by ukrainian citizens

Being supplied equipment by the Russians that could be used to bring down civilian aircraft flying at cruising altitude, and being lead by ex-soviet special force commanders. It doesn't matter who they are, honestly, they are criminals the minute they tried to control another countries sovereign airspace, and started randomly shooting at things traveling through it.

originally posted by: fixitwcw
you can't just blame this on russia because you don't like them, after all, they owned crimea since before the US was even thought of.

Actually I don't dislike the Russians. I was born in the US, but I come from Russian, Ukrainian, German, and Dutch heritage. Either way though, the responsibility lays squarely with the Russians on this one, which is why they pulled that equipment back right after they realized how bad they screwed up on this stupid idea.

a reply to: defcon5
So you KNOW that Russia shot down this commercial plane? And, their motive is what exactly? They hate Malaysia? Its a damned war zone that the plane was directed to fly over. There is a lot suspicious here, including the almost-too-quick claims by the Kiev Junta. By the western media. By a rabid john mccain. The neocon war machine is grabbing this and running with it, and you dont suspect anything??

originally posted by: Zandril
The blame belongs goes to the following.

Ukraine for diverting the flight after they knew about recent attacks on aircraft in that region

Read my above post.
This DIDN'T happen.
The aircraft was at 33K feet, the flight restriction was originally at 26K feet, and was later moved up to 32K feet. That means that anything above 32K feet was in open airspace. No one “diverted” anything into anywhere it shouldn't have been.
Where do these WRONG rumors come from anyway?

originally posted by: pirhanna
So you KNOW that Russia shot down this commercial plane?

Ukrainian separatists under the command of an ex-soviet special forces commander, and supplied with high altitude Russian AA equipment were responsible. Yeah, they have video of who the commander was, and he was a Russian retired special forces commander. Yeah, they have audio of the radio between the spotters and the guys operating the AA unit. Yeah, Russia is at fault here...

originally posted by: pirhanna
And, their motive is what exactly? They hate Malaysia?

No they had been shooting down “spy planes” and “cargo planes” all week. Aircraft that had a similar profile as this 777 did. Yeah, there's video of them shooting one down on the 6th.

Fact is though, they had no legal right to be shooting at anything in a countries legal airspace.

originally posted by: pirhanna
Its a damned war zone that the plane was directed to fly over.

NO IT WASN'T...
It was RESTRICTED AIRSPACE with a 32K foot FLIGHT RESTRICTION...
There is no “war zone” on an aviation map...
It wasn't DIRECTED to fly there, that was OPEN airspace over 32K ...

originally posted by: pirhanna
and you dont suspect anything??

Yeah, I suspect that Russia just got caught with their pants around their ankles, and now is trying to save face. One way they like to do that is spread a bunch of conspiracies in their controlled news sources and on the net.

a reply to: pirhanna

Just one point on "legality". The Kiev Junta is not the "legal" government of Ukraine. For better or worse, they did overthrow the elected government. So what exactly is this about government "legality" you speak of? Its their legal right to send passenger planes into a civil war zone? Pssshh. Lol. Ok sure.

Reality is apparently what big media tells us it is. Its like a person with a spoon fighting the great wall of fabrication. I / we might as well just forget about it. Forget about liberty, forget about sites like ats, forget about reality because we have lost.

a reply to: defcon5

i didn't necessarily mean that YOU disliked the russians. hell, I dislike the russians, but the point i was trying to make is that NO ONE except those issuing orders, if there were any, and those feeding the SAM targets, will ever know what really happened. my hunch is that the ukraine gave the nod, simply because they need outside intervention to quell the uprising. an international "false flag" so to speak. i do not believe that russia gave the nod to do this because they are not stupid, they knew everyone would point the finger at them.... and so did the ukraine. ukraine had everything to gain and russia had everything to loose. i don't buy russia commiting suicide for one second.

and if you want to talk about the weapon suppliers being guilty, well, we have supplied many more weapons, to many more half-cocked, half-rocked, banana republics and resistance movements, than russia, or the soviet union for that matter in it's entire existence..... and i believe those weapons were almost never used as they should have been. we are the only people to nuke innocent civilians, so anything the US has to say about this, is moot. we killed alot more innocent people on 8-6-45. we are hypocrites, after "separatists" created this country, with george III calling it "illegal" the whole time.

a reply to: pirhanna

we have not lost. not until people like us are officially deemed criminals for our beliefs. not until they come for us "criminals". not until every last one of us has died defending our freedom. we have not lost.

originally posted by: pirhanna
Just one point on "legality". The Kiev Junta is not the "legal" government of Ukraine.

That's arguable either way...
BUT...
It doesn't matter. Just because there's a dispute as to who is running the government does not make the airspace any less valid as that countries airspace. Here, in the US, our airspace isn't controlled by Obama, and if he was removed from office, our airspace doesn't suddenly become up for public grabs...

These guys had no right to be trying to intervene with anything flying in that airspace, PERIOD...
They certainly should have NEVER been given equipment that was able to reach those flight levels.

originally posted by: pirhanna
Its their legal right to send passenger planes into a civil war zone? Pssshh. Lol. Ok sure.

You want to explain to me how the “government sent passenger planes into a civil war zone”? Again, there was a Flight Restriction, not a “No fly zone”. That flight restriction was based on the idea that the rebels had nothing that could hit anything at that altitude, and it has never historically happened in the past.

originally posted by: pirhanna
Reality is apparently what big media tells us it is.

Flight restrictions are publicly posted.
They have to be so that pilots can read them.
This is not a conspiracy.

a reply to: bjarneorn

the real fault in all of this is the person(s), who made the decision to overfly a war zone, especially when you keep in mind it is a war zone that aircraft are being shot down in. if that plane had not been in that area, it would not have been shot down. this is the one fact that caused it. it doesn't even matter which side actually shot it down, if it wasn't there to be a target, it would not have happened.

a reply to: bjarneorn

One possible explanation is that this civilian aircraft was destroyed so as to make Joe public look the other way with regards as to what's transpiring in Gaza right now.

It's an old tactic but none the less effective.

Who's responsible for this atrocity? "They" are I imagine, same people who control the mass media and banking cartels aka TPTB aka the Illuminati oogarts!

originally posted by: fixitwcw
my hunch is that the ukraine gave the nod, simply because they need outside intervention to quell the uprising.

Here is an article I just posted in another thread:
Height of Ukraine No Fly Zone Faces Scrutiny
Yeah, okay, they call it a “no fly zone” in the title, but its a flight restriction.

The Ukrainians based this on the belief that they only had to worry about “manpads” with an altitude of 15K feet, but the Russians had given them equipment that reached up to 40K feet. The 40K foot AA has to be radar guided, which means it can pick up the transponder, and if the operators were qualified on the equipment, should have known that this was a civilian aircraft. They shot anyway, either because they were unqualified to operate this level of equipment, or because they weren't going to trust the IFF was correct and were recklessly shooting at everything.

Either way this is WAY bad for Russia. They had no right to arm them with this type of equipment.

originally posted by: fixitwcw
an international "false flag" so to speak. i do not believe that russia gave the nod to do this because they are not stupid, they knew everyone would point the finger at them....

I think that the Russians were too busy trying to shut down their airspace to give a thought to what would happen if something went wrong. Russia doesn't control the Ukraine's Airspace Restrictions, and the Ukrainian Aviation Authority obviously didn't know the Russians gave them equipment that could hit a target at that altitude.

Here's the key though.
Did the Ukrainian Aviation Authority make a mistake in allowing traffic through at that altitude?
Yeah, they did.
BUT, that was a mistake made on imperfect knowledge.
Did the Russians make a mistake in giving that equipment to untrained separatists?
Yeah they did...
BUT, that mistake was criminal negligence in supplying high level AA equipment to essentially terrorist for use in another countries airspace. In other words, they should have known better than this, but were more concerned with “blockading” air traffic, than thinking of what might happen if the Ukrainians didn't think to put high enough restrictions on their airspace.

originally posted by: fixitwcw
we have supplied many more weapons, to many more half-cocked, half-rocked, banana republics and resistance movements, than russia, or the soviet union for that matter in it's entire existence.....

we have never supplied this level of equipment to any rebels factions, only to recognized governments.

originally posted by: generik
a reply to: bjarneorn

the real fault in all of this is the person(s), who made the decision to overfly a war zone, especially when you keep in mind it is a war zone that aircraft are being shot down in. if that plane had not been in that area, it would not have been shot down. this is the one fact that caused it.

Again, “war zones” aren't listed on aviation maps, and pilots trust the aviation authority to restrict airspace accordingly. The aviation authorities here didn't realize there was danger at that altitude, as they were expecting only “manpads”, not high altitude radar guided AA tanks. As such this was NOT the only aircraft that had flown through that airspace.

a reply to: pirhanna

Just one point on "legality". The Kiev Junta is not the "legal" government of Ukraine. For better or worse, they did overthrow the elected government. So what exactly is this about government "legality" you speak of? Its their legal right to send passenger planes into a civil war zone? Pssshh. Lol. Ok sure.

Wrong, they are a democratically elected government and Russia has even said this and they recognize them as such so that argument is a fallacy.

The Ukraine citizens wanted the old Russian backed gov't out that essentially stole money for their own greed.

www.reuters.com...

www.theguardian.com...

www.dailymail.co.uk... .html

And that brings us to where we are today. As for the plane and it's flight path...

"The flight path taken by MH17 was approved by the International Civil Aviation Organization and by the countries whose airspace the route passed through,” said Liow Tiong Lai at a news conference in Kuala Lumpur on Friday. “Fifteen out of 16 airlines in the Assn. of Asia Pacific Airlines fly this route over Ukraine.”

The airlines said that the course taken by the plane was a common one and that another flight from a different airliner was on the same route at the time of the MH17 crash in the region of Donetsk near the Russian border.

www.latimes.com...

So you may want to get the info correct before making such absurd comments.