Please Explain Israel vs Palestine

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow

originally posted by: CommandoJoe

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: Logarock
What many never take into consideration is that many of the folks living close to Israle are actually ancestry related.

They come from a nephew of Abraham and other relatives of Abraham beside Ismael, a brother of Jacob ect. What Iran's interest is in these folks fighting isn't really clear but certainly some sort of pathological race hate.

Also don't try to drag Iran into this because if they hated Jews so badly they show it very poorly seeing how Iran has one of the largest group of Jews outside of Israel.

Keep trying to spread lies - this is not even close to true. There are about 10k Jews in Iran - they are not even in the top 20...

United States 5,425,000
France 480,000
Canada 375,000
U.K. 291,000
Russia 194,000
Argentina 181,800
Germany 119,000
Brazil 95,300
Ukraine 67,000
Hungary 48,200
Mexico 39,200
Belgium 30,000
Netherlands 29,900
Italy 28,200
Chile 18,500
Switzerland 17,500
Turkey 17,400
Sweden 15,000
Spain 12,000
Belarus 12,000

And even tiny Uruguay whose population is 20x smaller than Iran has almost twice as many Jews living there compared to Iran...

Worldwide Jewish population stats

I haven't read through the entire threat yet, but the comments above are typical - some people keep spreading false info when they don't know what they are talking about. They keep spreading something they heard somewhere as if it is truth.

No doubt this is a complex issue, both sides have done things wrong, and there is no quick or easy fix.

Wrong.. they have the 13th largest jewish population with 30,000+. Previously they had around 90,000, but many moved after the revolution in the 70's.

So wrong again. They do have one of the largest Jewish populations.

The post I quoted claimed that Iran had THE largest Jewish population outside Israel which was clearly false... The claimed number of Jews in Iran varies quite a bit from a low of less than 9000 to less than 30,000. It wouldn't surprise me if Iran would exaggerate the actual # though, that's why I went with the 10k approximation. Either way if it is around 20th or 13th it is no where near the largest outside Israel as was claimed and in relative #'s it is quite small - 10k or even 30k out of 14 million is a drop in the bucket and not a large population...

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: CommandoJoe

Hamas isn't targeting anyone. They don't have that capability. They are just shooting off rockets randomly to get attention from the internation community to the fact that Israel is oppressing them and taking their land (the little bit they have left.

So when they fired a laser guided anti-tank weapon at a childrens school bus that wasn't terrorism? Thankfully only one child was killed as the rest had already been dropped off.

www.liveleak.com...

Suicide bombings aren't terrorism? Many of these were carried out by Hamas:
en.wikipedia.org...

Hamas KNOWS the most likely victim of any missiles that land in Israel will be civilians - They are aiming for all the major cities within their range - currently 150km or so... This IS terrorism.

Basically if you support Israel's treatment of Palestinians then you support the South's treatment of African Americans. You support the Apartheid

Have I said anything about the treatment of Palestinians? I've said several times in various threads that I don't blindly support everything that Israel does. But when it comes to Hamas I hope Israel doesn't hold back.

a reply to: Involutionist

Wow.... a picture of children 'writing messages' Nasrala. He is not exactly Ghandi or Buddha now is he. and they are hardly being taught to spew words of extreme hatred while holding guns, being taught to hate! big difference between the vids i showed and this.

Dont get me wrong, this IS a bad thing.... but lets be honest.you really are reaching here arent you!? I can show you more vid if you want. i dont even need to try that hard.... youtube throws these up like its nothing!
Im not saying you cant find jewish kids saying they hate arabs.... but theres a difference due to the lack of conviction, you can clearly see how Hamas indoctrinates their kids to literally HATE and KILL and drink the blood etc of zionists. This is the true crime here, and its the individuals in charge of Hamas who are responsible!

Nasrala is an evil man. He would not think twice of using children as human shields.... show me a single Israeli who would use his child as a human shield and you win this debate!

Now about Hamas' founding, you call that a rabbit hole? wow, you really need to spend more time on ATS!


Its fairly simple, Hamas was partly funded by israel early 80's in order to oppose arafat (a self-proclaimed palestinian who was in fact born in Cairo) and his PLO, who were busy hijaking planes!!!. Later on, they were radicalized by Yassin who had his own agenda from the get-go, and voila, you have the Israel-hating, antizionist, antiwestern, antisemitic, antieverything Hamas.

It is a summary, and hardly a rabbit-hole at that!
If you want rabbit holes, go to the aviation forum!

I mean, are you trying to defend Hamas here, or just attack Israel? Attacking Israel is nothing new... but defending Hamas is too much to take!

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: CommandoJoe

What makes it terrorism?

Targeting civilians makes it terrorism... If they want to be freedom fighters, then they should only be attacking military/government targets or the fences/wall.

If someone starts bulldozing your home and they control your city and don't allow any aid or communication with the world.

Israel hasn't maintained a presence in Gaza in almost 10 years, no homes bulldozed after that - they pulled out their military and forcibly removed all settlers in 2005. If you're referring to the West Bank, then why aren't the missiles being launched from there instead of Gaza? Because terrorist aren't running the PA there.

I guess you haven't heard, they have cell phones and internet service in Gaza and the West Bank - how exactly are they cut off from communicating with the rest of the world?

They forbid any progress and put laws on your that don't apply to their people and you shoot rockets to get the worlds attention and try to stop them from bulldozing your homes..

Again, launching missiles at all the major cities of Israel is terrorism, and the attention they get is an air strike from Israel on the launching site. If they want the worlds attention maybe they should try something different.

you sincerely think that's terrorism?

yes

originally posted by: CommandoJoe

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: CommandoJoe

What makes it terrorism?

Targeting civilians makes it terrorism... If they want to be freedom fighters, then they should only be attacking military/government targets or the fences/wall.

If someone starts bulldozing your home and they control your city and don't allow any aid or communication with the world.

Israel hasn't maintained a presence in Gaza in almost 10 years, no homes bulldozed after that - they pulled out their military and forcibly removed all settlers in 2005. If you're referring to the West Bank, then why aren't the missiles being launched from there instead of Gaza? Because terrorist aren't running the PA there.

I guess you haven't heard, they have cell phones and internet service in Gaza and the West Bank - how exactly are they cut off from communicating with the rest of the world?

They forbid any progress and put laws on your that don't apply to their people and you shoot rockets to get the worlds attention and try to stop them from bulldozing your homes..

Again, launching missiles at all the major cities of Israel is terrorism, and the attention they get is an air strike from Israel on the launching site. If they want the worlds attention maybe they should try something different.

you sincerely think that's terrorism?

yes

I'm pretty sure Israel has resettled the land they supposedly unsettled.

originally posted by: ArtemisE
I'm pretty sure Israel has resettled the land they supposedly unsettled.

Show me a link where Israeli's have settled in Gaza...

a reply to: CommandoJoe

How many Iranians are allowed to become citizens of Israel? I bet that number is even a smaller drop in the bucket. Also, contemplate logically what that implies...

Up is down and down is up with you. Everyone, including you, are allowed to perceive matters in any way you choose for any reasons you choose. However, I find it sickening that you strive not for fairness and compassion but instead promote more chaos through conflict.

Conflicting biased thoughts will cause that...

a reply to: combatmaster

I don't choose sides. I value honesty and fairness. I have no time for spin doctors.

you can clearly see how Hamas indoctrinates their kids to literally HATE and KILL and drink the blood etc of zionists.

I believe the IDF indiscriminately killing children and their mothers indoctrinates the younger generation even more. Yes, Hamas is wrong as well for doing so. I was not denying they weren't. I just levelling out the playing field.

What are your thoughts on these photos from recent days of children ripped in half by IDF aggression? What kind of seed do these atrocities plant in the minds of children? C'mon man, the world is messed up because people like you justify killing. If I saw a dead Israeli child ripped in half, I would be speaking out as well. How about you?


www.dailymail.co.uk...

I mean, are you trying to defend Hamas here, or just attack Israel? Attacking Israel is nothing new... but defending Hamas is too much to take!

I take it you did not read my post right above the one you responded to....I find that really interesting because it was directly above it. Again, I like to play fair and I value facts over biased opinions. Read my words in the post below. You will see how much I love both the Israeli and Palestinian people equally. Can you say the same?

Anyway, here it is: www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: Involutionist
a reply to: CommandoJoe

How many Iranians are allowed to become citizens of Israel? I bet that number is even a smaller drop in the bucket. Also, contemplate logically what that implies...

Israel has a very tight immigration policy in general, regardless of country - unless you are Jewish... This is no secret.
If all the Iranian Jews wanted to come to Israel tomorrow, it would be very easy for them to come here - They would have transportation provided and I'm sure many would even donate to help them get established in Israel.

Up is down and down is up with you. Everyone, including you, are allowed to perceive matters in any way you choose for any reasons you choose. However, I find it sickening that you strive not for fairness and compassion but instead promote more chaos through conflict.

Conflicting biased thoughts will cause that...

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by all this... I feel for the innocent Palestinian people, they are in a tough spot for sure. I primarily blame their leadership though - they have stolen millions of the financial aid intended to help the people rather than uplifting them. And Hamas is essentially ruling Gaza like a dictatorship using violence and intimidation to gain and maintain control.

Does anyone ever wonder why Israel is not bombing the West Bank? Maybe it's because the leadership there isn't launching missiles into Israel... Israel is responding directly to violent attacks against its civilians by Hamas. When Hamas is not attacking Israel, they leave Gaza alone... I've seen it many times.
This isn't to say Israel is perfect - I know they have done things wrong, but when it comes to Hamas, a heavy hand is needed.

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

I would first ask yourself, why have the jews been kicked out of so many countries in the last couple of thousand years, do you really believe that everyone that has kicked them out was a just a bigot, or is their a chance there is a more rational explanation?

Go and research the treachery they have brought to sooo many countries over the years and then remind yourself after all these countries were sick of their cunning lies and manipulation they went on to steal the Palestinians land(and are still taking more of it everyday) and you'll have your answer,

What you wont get is the total brutal truth about their more recent history(last 2000 years, if you can call that recent) written in one post in this thread.

a reply to: Involutionist

Sorry.... didnt mean to offend you.
I honestly didnt see your post.

I want to live and let live! unfortunately this is not the case with everyone in control!

a reply to: CommandoJoe

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by all this... I feel for the innocent Palestinian people, they are in a tough spot for sure. I primarily blame their leadership though - they have stolen millions of the financial aid intended to help the people rather than uplifting them. And Hamas is essentially ruling Gaza like a dictatorship using violence and intimidation to gain and maintain control.

Does anyone ever wonder why Israel is not bombing the West Bank? Maybe it's because the leadership there isn't launching missiles into Israel... Israel is responding directly to violent attacks against its civilians by Hamas. When Hamas is not attacking Israel, they leave Gaza alone... I've seen it many times.
This isn't to say Israel is perfect - I know they have done things wrong, but when it comes to Hamas, a heavy hand is needed.

Thank you, I now feel I can talk to you objectively. Look, both sides have been in the wrong. A heavy hand against Hamas is needed and the same goes for Israel. But not through violence and between each other. The world needs to call a spade a spade. Knock both sides heads together and say enough; play fair. Israel tends to play a bit more unfairly due to the fact elephants shouldn't swat flies. However, watching how many civilian causalities being inflicted by the IDF over the years and especially the last few days creates more of this vicious cycle. When an IDF soldier points a gun at little boys face to terrorize him that is just wrong; when they deny the people of Palestine autonomous right to life that is wrong. When Hamas fires rockets into Israel that too is wrong; when they train kids who have been psychologically damaged by witnessing what Israel has done to their loved ones to fight their cause, that as well is wrong. Israel is a mighty, mighty nation with a very sophisticated Military. Palestine is an open air prison whose way of life and infrastructure is at the mercy of the Israeli government. They have nobody to protect them. Every time Hamas fires a rocket into Israel, I ask, "Why would they start something that Israel will finish with one hand behind their back". Why doesn't Israel show restraint?

I have two very close friends, one from Israel and one from Palestine. They are both sweet souls. Unfortunately because of their indoctrinated views each can't stand each other and refuse to be in the same room as each other. My friend from Israel lost a brother who was a soldier due to being killed by a Palestinian and my Palestinian friend lost his wife to a bullet to the head by an IDF soldier. These two incidents have nothing to do with each other, yet they blame each other personally. It breaks my heart. Both these souls are so good people, so sweet beyond words....

I will say this: I can't stand Hamas just as much as I cannot stand the Israeli government.

The people on both sides I love with all my heart.

a reply to: combatmaster

Apology accepted. Thank you. Yes live and let live. In saying that, I probably won't be posting anymore on Mid-East topics. Imma stick to the lighter stuff. This site is filled with great people. I believe many would get along quite well in person despite differing views concerning certain matters.

I wish you a great Sunday.

a reply to: Involutionist

Thanks...

and a great monday to you too!

a reply to: Logarock

Just for the record, I consider anyone anti-Semitic if they really don't know the facts well and have a bent that defends the position of its enemies. There are very very few objective critics of Israle on this site. If one is not objective the are stupid or ignorant and just hate for personal or kick reasons.

You want objective criticism? Kewl, I will start slow with you and then crank it up. The following is considered taking it easy on you. Just you wait what I have to show you later....

Look at this photo of the young girl being hauled off by the IDF taken a few years ago. Count how many grown ass men with guns are escorting this one child. Look how scared she was that she pissed her pants because they slapped and kicked her so hard. Look at the look of sheer terror on her face because she knows what is coming his way. They did things to her that I'd rather not discuss at the moment. Now look at the soldiers faces; especially the one holding her.

Hurt and unrelenting abuse like this combined with daily dehumanizing acts (that often is ignored by non -compassionate souls) will make many grow up to fire rockets at Israel. I'm not saying I condone that behaviour; but I completely understand.

You justify Israel's actions at the moment; cool no problem. Look at this photo and FEEL some compassion for that little girl who is about to get her spirit broken in the most sadistic way that is not only the ultimate war crime but a crime against humanity.



Btw, Semite people have nothing to do with religion. In other words; the Palestinian people are Semites as well.

Deny ignorance.

a reply to: CommandoJoe


yes and anytime someone uses Iranian information of this sort they are just sadly misinformed or stooling for the Iranians.

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE

originally posted by: Expat888
In short its a worldclass cluster# .. idiocy in action ..

Yes...obviously. But I must be missing something. ATS has some very smart people but most here seem to hate Israel and think they are wrong. But I never see much of a logical reason. It is usually emotion and "they attacked harder" or "they are evil for bombing". Which doesn't hold up as facts as to why so many see them as being in the wrong. So again...logical facts why my beliefs are wrong.

First, let me mention that your first wrong move in the OP was to equate Israel to Jews. There are many, many on this site that are very vocal about their dislike of the actions Israel takes and it DOES NOT have anything to do with them being Jewish.

We have to get past that first and foremost.

Second, we have to recognize that Israel does not belong to the Jews. It belonged to the Palestinians until the UN, out of some sort of guilt after the holocaust, took it from them and gave it to the Jews. Some say it belonged to the Jews many, many years ago, but some of my research leads me to believe that the Jews were a nomadic people that wandered the edges of the desert. They never had a home.

If that is true, and I hope there is a historian around here to address that, can we agree that the land was taken from the Palestinians? If you were a Palestinian....wouldn't you be pissed?

Lastly, there is a lot of blame to go around on both sides. Israel takes advantage of their status in the world and keeps pushing the Palestinians to the point that Gaza is a small, isolated and desperate patch of dirt. And Hamas is a joke when it comes to leadership of the people and they have a warrior mindset...when they should learn to be more diplomatic, learn to play the international "media game" and take a step out of the dark ages.

But for me, Israel has the biggest share of the blame in this because of the UN resolution. To me, it's outright insanity that this land was just taken from the people that occupied it and given to the Jews.

a reply to: CommandoJoe

Suicide bombings isn't common there and hasn't really been noted in what.. like 10 years?

Any act of "terrorism" by Hamas is seen and raised by Israel. Terrorism is just a buzz word really though. It's asymmetrical warfare. They use what they have.

I can list all the terrorist acts by Israel like flachette shells, white phosphorous, intentionally bombing civilian homes and using bombs as a warning (ignorant but heinous plan), bombing children, bombing a hospital, keeping the people oppressed and beating them. Trapping them in a small space and bombing them indescriminately.

I mean i could bring up the number of Hamas killing Israeli soldiers v.s. Israeli civilians, and Israel killing Palestinian militants v.s. civilians. The actions and numbers speak for themselves.

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

Damn! I came on ATS to write a philosophical, even poetical statement about human relational reality. But I will put that on hold!

Israel vs. Palestine...where to begin. I guess context is what matters, eh? It should be. All logical reasoning essentially happens in a framework of relationships. For example. An egg drops to the ground, but what caused it? The Egg? The Ground? Or the hand who dropped it?

In this particular, situational context, Israel is responding to a month long barrage of unprovoked rocket attacks at Israeli cities. The question is: Why?

Hamas is a terror organization - in the language of political diehards, but to get a more literal idea, they're a paramilitary organization created by the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood as the Islamist resistance against the "evil" zionists. To qualify my usage of the quotations. What is evil to the Muslim Brotherhood, and to Hamas, and to all Muslims loyal to Umma, is the existence of a Jewish - non Muslim - state in the heart of Islamdom.

Now. Ask yourself a simple question. Do you care? Do you really, really freaking care to respect these Islamist values? I'm not sure if this question seems brash to you. It might, if it does, I'm sorry. But it's these sorts of questions that EVERYONE needs to ask themselves.

To answer this question knowledgedably, you of course need to know "what Is Islamism"? Islamism is the wedding of Orthodox Islamic theology and law with political philosophy. The writings of Sayyed Qutb, Mohomad Iqbal, Hassan Al Bannah form the backbone of this ideology. These 3 amigos were all 20th century Sunni political philosophers, together they argued that the western non-Islamic influences i.e. France, England, who are operating in the Arab world and changing it's culture - and even causing a surge in atheism - were evil and their influence need to be countered - hence the creation of the Muslim Brotherhood. Years later Hamas was established by them as their Palestinian wing.

Amongst other things, Islamism essentially creates a political situation in which Islamic law - sharia - can be carried out. No alcohol, no music, woman head covering, would be a basic requirement of it's legal system.

So again, given the sheer incompatibility of western thinking - and all that means: the process of self enlightenment that we have gone through, from the middle ages to Francis Bacon, Galileo, Descartes, Kant, Einstein, and all the rest of it, we deservedly EARNED the type of self awareness we have today, in realizing the psychological meaning of how to be with other people if we want to promote the best values - those which allow the largest number of people to thrive and be happy. This didn't happen on its own. It was a massive and widely disseminated undertaking. Democratic at its core. The openness and the willingness to speak and to listen. Did Islam have this? Yeah. In the Middle Ages in Andulasia. The rest of the time it was oppression and self repression. Gratuitous laws and Absurdly unreasonable theological system (I refer here to Al Ghazalis metaphysics)

If you have any brain, or if you understand the concept of peace - you will readily accept that Islamism is incompatible with a better world. I'm sorry that they exist. I'm sorry that its confusing and that some people have difficulty integrating this information. But it is what it is.

This isn't about Islam. Islam - when practiced, and ultimately, "reformed", as it is for so many practicing Muslims, can be a perfect expression of spiritual belief. But Islamism is a type of Islam that opposes ideas like "tolerance". They take the sight of ungodly behavior as a insult to Allah's gift of life. To Allahs messenger, Mohommad. And to Allahs book of how to live, the Quran.

I speak in this tone ^^^ because this is how they understand and experience themselves. They deeply believe in it. And to anyone with self awareness, we should deeply understand that they cannot be placated: nothing, as we know, is so powerful as religious beliefs. Nothing motivates human beings in such a shockingly powerful way as religious conviction - where the eviction of self and submersion in something bigger - Jihad - is all that matters.

It should be scary. And you should take the bull head on and accept that Hamas is THIS.

Now, can we discuss Palestine and Israel? OK? The poor people of Palestine are being indoctrinated into this hostile and pernicious belief system. Utterly incompatible with the values we hold as humanists (or as people who live by, in every situation they encounter, to treat others as they want to be treated)

Israel is dealing with non-stop rocket attacks. That they even withstand and tolerate hundreds, is pretty amazing, without reprisal. That they even show restraint, should be commended. Their response is only to deal with the insane and surreal reality that right beneath them, jailed - and needing to be so! - in Gaza, are a government who teach their citizens that Jews are pigs and thieves and rotten at their existential core. Inherently immoral people. The lies that proliferate in Gaza - and even in the wider Arab world - about Jews, simply another ethnicity of human beings - and that they can be pushed to such a low level of dehumanization of another people..

This is truly an astonishing situation to bear witness to. A wicked irony. Israel is cast by so many supporters of Palestine as actually "trying to kill Palestinians civilians". On what basis? In what dream-fantasy world does this intuition arise? Out of nothing. Or maybe out of the historical tendency of the western and Islamic world to demonize Jews.

What should matter when you frame a judgement about this is what we KNOW about Israel - as a society - and Palestine, with Gaza and the west bank understood separately (since they are represented by different governments). Israel is a western democracy. In its society are the values that function within our own: respect for all human life. The right to free speech, free political expression, and in general a cultural awareness that we should learn to understand one another - and hence experience the feeling of tolerance. In it's schools, in its universities, in its hospital and political buildings, there pervades a culture of respect and tolerance. Just as we see within our own societies her in the west.

Of course, we aren't perfect. There still lies corruption. And there still lies abuse. Human nature. But what makes us different, and what justifies all nations who subscribe to this compassionate morality, is that we enshrine these values in our constitutions and our laws. Which means we give it some "oomph" from which it's ideas will become absorbed and proliferate between minds.

This is Israel. If you do not think so you're simply delusional. You've never been there. Or perhaps you have a paranoia problem - something you should get checked.

So, Israeli culture = the above. Which means that Israeli soldiers, although far from perfect, are held within a conceptual system with far more reasonable restrictions and an acknowledgement of human rights than can be found in most western countries.

Palestinians, conversely, and Gazans in particular, more-or-less subscribe to antisemitic views of Jews. Perhaps within the westbank you will find some true moderates. But their voice is squelched by a mainstream view that aligns with