What Patriarchy?

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: Bluesma

I think I was right the first time about stereotyping.

I'm just not gonna get into that.

Repeat: Equal Opportunity.

Repeat: Equal opportunity is incongruous with a Patriarchial society.

It is a contradiction in terms.

-something went wrong in this post and my writing was lost- reposted below

originally posted by: GetOutOfMyLight
If you don't think being a school teacher, nurse, day care, sunday school teacher, MOTHER, grandmother, etc are just as critical positions of power as CEOs and politicians, then you've completely missed the real life available on this planet.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
A man who values women learned to value women at a young age. Mothers have the power to instil this ability. This is why I say women have always had a hand in culture making—the most important hand. Women are the unsung, and perhaps unrealized, soil of culture.

I think these were much more succinct ways of saying what I was struggling to describe.

Women create persons- they instill the earliest and most deep values and morals, that end up being the bedrock underneath our conscious choices.

When I use the word "femininity" I refered to qualities ALL humans have, regardless of gender (we each have a masculine and feminine side) but that are more generally prominent in one sex or another.

The feminist view that traits like emotional sensitivity, empathy, nurturance, gentleness, compassion are not innate, but learned, failed in my experience. I think that is part of what happened with my generation. The feminists tried to prove their hypothesis, and it just failed.

My mother gave baby dolls to my brother, and put me into boxing and motocross. Every attempt was made to encourage us to NOT become "stereotypical". We were kept away from most collective cultural groupings, which might influence us.

My bother just never really could get into the baby dolls, and the first time I actually hit someone and hurt them, I fell apart, traumatized. I couldn't get into competition because I couldn't motivate myself to win- that would mean someone else would lose!

The positive thing that came about is that even if we didn't find those other traits especially strong in ourselves, that effort made us appreciate them in others. My brother has a wonderful appreciation of those feminine traits I listed above, and of women in general.

I love a competative and slightly self centered person- I appreciate the necessity of those traits in the world, even if I feel the opposing traits more strongly in myself.

I grew up not as my mother hoped- I am not a tough CEO (she tried to condition me to go that direction by repeating early on that is how she saw my in future). But I have roles that are just as valuable and important to the whole of society! Roles she didn't see the value of- like being a mother, a teacher, a healer...

I see a lot of women my age (forties) who feel sort of apathetic towards our mothers generation of angry feminists. Like they were misogynists fighting against their self, projecting the "oppressor" outside, when what we could see, they were oppressing and devaluing their femininity inside.

Not all feminists are the same, we will remind ourselves. But I am just trying to give some explanation to the observation that a certain generation of women don't seem to get into the fight. I do not feel repressed or disempowered as a woman.

a reply to: Bluesma

New research shows that the role fathers play in early child development is extremely important and with 1/2-1/3 of fathers choosing to never see, or rarely, see their children after a divorce...we continue to have a 'blame mother' game going or women being the 'unsung' 'unrealized' heroes here (as LM put it).

www.cbc.ca...

a reply to: InTheLight

You know what they say about opinions.

Paul Raeburn probably very affected by his preemie twin sons, and the developmental problems they continue to have.

I always love the "research" on single mothers. Is the research ever about successful single mothers? Nope.

originally posted by: InTheLight
a reply to: Bluesma

New research shows that the role fathers play in early child development is extremely important and with 1/2-1/3 of fathers choosing to never see, or rarely, see their children after a divorce...we continue to have a 'blame mother' game going or women being the 'unsung' 'unrealized' heroes here (as LM put it).

www.cbc.ca...

I was focusing on the specific influence of mothers in early childhood, but did not mean that there isn't an equally important influence of Fathers- perhaps I should have stated that.
In my view, the mother shares important information on the deep dynamics of relation and subjectivity, and the father, of self awareness and objectivity.

These are equally important in the development of a human, I think.
I just was focusing my discourse on the formation of cultural, collective values (the relation of man to woman, of woman to the society, of the qualities of vulnerability to strength, of home to work, of family to nation, etc.)

Obviously, if a child is taught a certain value of self to other in relation,
But lacks sufficient development of a self concept, and the ability to distinguish self from other,
They will run into difficulties.

-And yes, some single mothers are capable of using their own masculine side to "father" a child and teach them about self awareness and objectification. But from what I have seen and experienced (my respect to others who might disagree) is that because that entails focus upon self-other separation and objectification, the completely opposing lesson of interpersonal relations and bonding, become less developed. They end up with less sense of cultural bonds with others. Individualistic, but without their "herd" mentality (I use that term purposely- to make evident our own conditioned values upon collective strength and bonding. Which is in my view, part of femininity that has been de-valued and oppressed. A woman who teaches their child "whatever you do, do not just be part of the crowd! Stand out! Be different! Swim against the current! is teaching that masculinity is more valuable than femininity)


Ultimately, I think that two separate individuals are the most effective way of teaching these opposing skills.
They can be of either sex playing either role, I personally continue to observe that males and females have certain ways of thinking that make them better equipped to take on certain ones.

a reply to: Bluesma

Your reply touches on the point I am trying to make here (ingrained and unconscious gender bias), in that, I refer to sex-typing. The following explains it further:

Core gender identity is tied up in the sex typing that an individual undergoes. This typing can be heavily influenced by child rearing, media, school, and other forms of cultural transmission. Bem refers to four categories in which an individual may fall: sex-typed, cross-sex-typed, androgynous, and undifferentiated. Sex-typed individuals process and integrate information that is in line with their gender. Cross-sex-typed individuals process and integrate information that is in line with the opposite gender. Androgynous individuals process and integrate traits and information from both genders. Finally, undifferentiated individuals do not show efficient processing of sex-typed information

en.wikipedia.org...

This is one method of parenting that needs to be looked at and practiced, in my opinion:

Also, providing children with a sexism schema, where children learn to process sex-typed information through a filter that promotes moral outrage when sexist information is being promoted, can assist in providing children with the resources to not only keep from becoming sex-typed but also promote positive social change.

Well crap. Lost my post. Short version.

I personally think the "one man-one woman" single family unit is unhealthy for everyone.

Comparing the society structure of the elephant matriarchy vs the chest thumping male dominated ape society ---- I know which I'd choose to live in.

Comparing the difference between the male prison behavior and women's prison behavior ---- I know which I would choose to live in.

We are conditioned by our society that men are the leaders.

Is that physical power posturing of chest thumping really needed in society today? Not really.

The Mosuo Matriarchy: 'Men Live Better Where Women Are In Charge'

How does a matriarchy really work? Argentinian writer Ricardo Coler decided to find out and spent two months with the Mosuo in southern China. "Women have a different way of dominating," the researcher told SPIEGEL ONLINE. www.spiegel.de...

Yep, everything has a book.

Societies of Peace: Matriarchies Past, Present, and Future Heidi Goettner-Abendroth

Matriarchal societies, primarily shaped by women, have a non violent social order in which all living creatures are respected without the exploitation of humans, animals or nature. They are well-balanced and peaceful societies in which domination is unknown and all beings are treated equally. This book presents these largely misunderstood societies, both past and present, to the wider public, as alternative social and cultural models that promote trust, mutuality, and abundance for all. www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1407512967&sr=1-1

a reply to: Annee

We are conditioned by our society that men are the leaders.

It's always easy to blame society.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Annee

We are conditioned by our society that men are the leaders.

It's always easy to blame society.

What am I blaming them for?

We are a product of our environment.

We are conditioned by the society we live in.

a reply to: Annee

What am I blaming them for?

We are a product of our environment.

We are conditioned by the society we live in.

You are blaming society for conditioning people to believe men are the leaders. That's simply untrue. It's only because men (for the most part) have always assumed leadership roles, that one would associate leadership with men. Of course, women throughout history have assumed these roles. But there's no social hypnotist walking around forcing you to believe that men are the leaders.

The question is, what are you blaming? Society is simply a large number of people trying to live in an ordered fashion. Everyone, as a part of this large number of people, make up society, including women.

We are also products of our biology, DNA and genes, which the video I posted shows. The most gender egalitarian and equal opportunity countries still do not have a 50/50 job place equality. Women still nonetheless mostly gravitate towards emotionally orientated work, despite the open doors, while men mostly gravitate towards object orientated work, even at the very first day of life. This is hardly a result of social conditioning, it's the result of hormones and genes, which influence how we are conditioned and condition ourselves in the first place.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Males just assume leadership? Really?

Other then elephants, how many mammal societies do you know that are matriarchal?

Even I know there's an actual difference between the male and female brain.

That being said, the brain does evolve to changes. This is known in treating Autism (other ways as well).

The brain will change as we evolve in gender equality. We're not their yet.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

About the video, I'm not particularly interested in 2 men discussing feminism. Kinda right up there with men dictating birth control to women.

Find me a video of women discussing feminism.

a reply to: Annee

Other then elephants, how many mammal societies do you know that are matriarchal?

Even I know there's an actual difference between the male and female brain.

That being said, the brain does evolve to changes. This is known in treating Autism (other ways as well).

The brain will change as we evolve in gender equality. We're not their yet.

Female elephants live in a matriarchal society, taking care of the calfs. Mature male elephants do not participate in it. Nonetheless, the dominant male elephant mates with whatever female he wishes.

I'm fairly certain hyenas are more matriarchal, as the female is more dominant than the male.

About the video, I'm not particularly interested in 2 men discussing feminism. Kinda right up there with men dictating birth control to women.

They are not discussing feminism; they are discussing gender at the highest levels of science. The two are not the same.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

It says "direct evidence that feminists . . . "

I grew up in the 50s. Came if age in the 60s.

That's 1st person real life experience of gender inequality in this country.

I know 1st hand what it was like for women prior to the women's equal rights movement, because I lived it.

We still have a long way to go.

originally posted by: Annee
I know 1st hand what it was like for women prior to the women's equal rights movement, because I lived it.

You're an artifact that can't see the gawkers marveling at your existence in spite of the current environment.

You... don't... get... to... tell... me... you... want... equal... opportunity... ever... again.

You've gotten philosophically naked like all the whores (male and female) for their principles before you. Congrats for your courage at your peak... but you've failed to pay attention to or listen to your progeny. They don't want you anymore.

They see the world you helped them emerge from and are grateful... but they also see you kinda sorta depend on that world to define your value.

They want that world to go away... and unless you pay attention that includes you. They see through you and have moved on to the next stage of working together. They're just waiting for people like you and I to fade away. Thank you for your service. Truly.

You have much to offer them, but it has more to do with restraint than power.

Bluesma is lovingly trying to share her Sophia.

a reply to: Annee

I grew up in the 50s. Came if age in the 60s.

That's 1st person real life experience of gender inequality in this country.

I know 1st hand what it was like for women prior to the women's equal rights movement, because I lived it.

We still have a long way to go.

Before women even thought about voting, men started a revolution to get theirs. Before women even thought about individual rights, men were holding a knife to the throat of King John demanding individual rights and that he sign the Magna Carta. Women didn't even know what rights existed until men had already built them. You say feminism is about equal rights, but as long as men have built them first. We're not there yet because men have not built any new rights for you to want.

a reply to: InTheLight


I just don't share the view that sex typing is the explanation for our differences as individuals, and the sort of way we process information.

Like I said, my mother tried very hard to "sex type" me with the opposing gender, she also did not allow me to watch many tv shows (like I love Lucy, I Dream of Jeannie, etc.) which were sexist, I was not allowed any religious education, and in school I spent most of my time alone outside sitting against a tree because the rest of the class was mexican and needed the first few years dedicated to learning english (and I didn't). So I was largely cut off from much of the typical sex typing that can come from the culture at that time.

And yet... I still turned out to have a mind which works in ways that are now recognized as typically feminine! I focus on relation instead of object; I will do just about anything to avoid conflict or violence; I will tend to maternize instead of paternize; I group ideas together associating them horizontally, instead of vertically, in measures of value (hierarchy). I am better with language than numbers.

Perhaps that is just me (but at least you can understand why I have this view that much of our differences might be nature and not nurture).

I don't have a problem with genders being distinguished from one another. I do not have a problem with a child witnessing one parent manifesting typically masculine traits and the other typically feminine ones (no matter what they actual gender be) As long as one is doing one, and the other the other. < that looks like a clumsy use of words, but is quite deliberate.

Simone de Beauvoir pointed out the associations traditionally made, of the woman as "other", or "not self" (Freud explained how this forms- for most infants, their first discover of separation, of an 'other' is their mother).

She took that as an obvious "inferior" or "second" position.

For me, that just shows how her thinking was a product of her paternalistic society- one which proclaims "ME first". The Self is most highly valued. Ego.

A child watches these two care takers interact and learns about how self and other can interact, solve differences, and cooperate.
This begins a whole internal play between their own feminine and masculine sides. They come together in the child.

I can appreciate the concept that, it might be better to show the whole enchilada already made - androgynous types of individuals. Maybe. But that is a very high goal- humans have to become.... extremely evolved, spiritually, I guess.


I think it is very hard to illustrate in action what it means to be "other" or "self" at the same time- it is a lesson in how to weave opposites together to make a design, not just work with gray all the time.

Sometimes you gotta be egotistical and put up the barriers, and sometimes you gotta tear 'em down and empathize with others. And sometimes put them only half way up. But the hardest moments to really master are those extremes, so it is useful to have a role model to study which goes to the extreme- How to be aggressive and fight, or be compassionate, conscientiously.

I love opinionated people.