Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: spy66

As I explained in another thread Kiev had reason to believe that Russia was penetrating their airspace and had potentially downed at least one of their aircraft. That seems to me like good enough reason to have BUKs deployed. It also needs to be pointed out again that none of these BUKs were in range of the crash site. Russia readily admits that while they have images of these 9 BUKs active at the times none of them fired.

But just after the Downing of Mh17 Ukraine only had 2 or 3 BUK active. Was there no need of being on the alert for russian air Crafts after that?

If Ukraine wants to use its Buk systems for point defense, it is very likely that these SAMs were in the range of MH17.

Saying otherwise defeats very purpose of such SAM deployments by Ukraine.

Su-25 service ceiling is 7000 m (en.wikipedia.org...). While a Ukrainian Su-25 may not have shot MH17, the plane MAY be in the vicinity that the SAM fired at it locked at MH17 instead.

Apparently the rebels have just shot down two Ukranian fighter jets not far from where the 777 went down....let's hope a burning Sukhoi doesn't land on the investigators heads!

Anybody who think current Ukrainian government is truthful is brainwashed.

The Ukrainians are focused at their narrow ends and have no care whatsoever for truth or fairness.

It is a dirty war in Ukraine - fought by mercenaries on the ground. There are no rules to this war.

a reply to: ScrutonEyez

You still haven't provided proof of this. The engine and wings are the same on the M1. So how does its ceiling suddenly increase by 40+%?

originally posted by: ScrutonEyez
a reply to: yuppa

Last count they had 3 of those and they woudnt risk those in SAM ALLEY.

If you say so it must be true then. The do risk airliners in Sam ALLEY though.

And they specified a SU-25 not a SU-25 m1.

Well, it's still a SU-25. I don't know if they can even make a distinction on radar between the two.

And if I'm correct the SU-25 can actually hit 33.000 ft.

No the russians have been caught editing the wiki. It orginally said it could only go to 7km the russians upgraded it (ON WIKI ALONE) to 10 KM so it fits their narrative. THE MANUFACTURERS WEBSITE AND SPECS HAVE NOT CHANGED THOUGH. Check th e manufacturers website. Proves they edited it. THAT IS WHY I DO NOT TRUST WIKIPEDIA. ANYONE CAN EDIT IT.

a reply to: yuppa

This was posted before,



www.redstar.gr...

I don't know if it is good enough for you but if you have the link to the manufacterers website and can disprove this, please do.

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: ScrutonEyez

You still haven't provided proof of this. The engine and wings are the same on the M1. So how does its ceiling suddenly increase by 40+%?

I think this whole discussion is moot actually. Everywhere I check I see that the Su-25 itself can get up to over 30.000ft.

Performance: max level speed at sea level 975 km/h (606 mph); ceiling 10.000m (32,800 ft)

www.milavia.net...

a reply to: yuppa

No the russians have been caught editing the wiki. It orginally said it could only go to 7km the russians upgraded it (ON WIKI ALONE) to 10 KM so it fits their narrative.

Obviously a BS statement. Did you make that up yourself? Did Russia hack dozens of aviation sites to change the spec?

Laughable.

Lol.

originally posted by: ScrutonEyez

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: ScrutonEyez

You still haven't provided proof of this. The engine and wings are the same on the M1. So how does its ceiling suddenly increase by 40+%?

I think this whole discussion is moot actually. Everywhere I check I see that the Su-25 itself can get up to over 30.000ft.

Performance: max level speed at sea level 975 km/h (606 mph); ceiling 10.000m (32,800 ft)

www.milavia.net...

Max cieling is without rockets the more weight you add the lower its cieling becomes. So unless your saying it was unarmed max cieling means nothing. The other problem is missile was to small and not on proxity for SU meaning shrapnal would be exiting not entering the air frame. No way an Su could have shot it down. I even looked at locations with the SU its unlikely it would have caught it. Where the Buk would have almost been directly under the path.

That aside damage shown is conistant with a sam not air to air. So this whole argument is a smoke screen and not a good one.

www.sukhoi.org...

a reply to: ScrutonEyez

Well you can't have checked many places because sites that report the higher service celing appear to be in the minority.

a reply to: yuppa

No the russians have been caught editing the wiki.

As my college teachers always say anyone and anyone in the world can edit the wiki as for the claims that someone did in the kremlin they have to do better then just showing there russophobia.

originally posted by: GargIndia

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: spy66

As I explained in another thread Kiev had reason to believe that Russia was penetrating their airspace and had potentially downed at least one of their aircraft. That seems to me like good enough reason to have BUKs deployed. It also needs to be pointed out again that none of these BUKs were in range of the crash site. Russia readily admits that while they have images of these 9 BUKs active at the times none of them fired.

But just after the Downing of Mh17 Ukraine only had 2 or 3 BUK active. Was there no need of being on the alert for russian air Crafts after that?

If Ukraine wants to use its Buk systems for point defense, it is very likely that these SAMs were in the range of MH17.

Saying otherwise defeats very purpose of such SAM deployments by Ukraine.

Su-25 service ceiling is 7000 m (en.wikipedia.org...). While a Ukrainian Su-25 may not have shot MH17, the plane MAY be in the vicinity that the SAM fired at it locked at MH17 instead.

7000m = 22965 ft. service ceiling for the SU -25

The SU would only have to be just bellow 5000m = 16404 ft. To fire its R-60.

The R-60 have a max range of 8000m = 26246 ft

The SU didnt show up on radar until it climed to 16404 ft. That happened as the MH17 was freefalling twoards the ground.

If it was a Su-25 that downed the MH17 it would have done it as it flew head on With the MH17, But the SU-25 must have been bellow 16404 ft because it didnt show up on radar until after the MH17 was hit, and freefalling towards the ground.

There are no evidence that this happened i am just playing With the idea the Russians showed on their debrief.



I also think that on the debrief russia said that the pro-surrians launched a BUK missile just minute after the MH17 had crashed.

This might be linked to the image of this suppoused smoke trail from a BUK missile taken.

a reply to: spy66

Seeing as how the missile a su-25 fires its not gonna hit the cockpit Thats not accurate. its using the archer missiles now apparently and they are IR missiles. where do IR missiles go you ask?my to the hottest places on a aircraft! where is that at you ask? why THE ENGINES!!

And shyeah they launched a SAM a minute after there was nothing to shoot at huh? They tweeted about it. Nothing you can say will change that. Also SUKHOI says themselves that aircraft will not get to 33,000 ft. Also WHY SAW THE DAMN PLANE UP? removing peices of metal most likely. all verifiable. And also. If a missile hit the tail it would had shredded the black boxes most likely.

originally posted by: Agent_USA_Supporter
a reply to: yuppa

No the russians have been caught editing the wiki.

As my college teachers always say anyone and anyone in the world can edit the wiki as for the claims that someone did in the kremlin they have to do better then just showing there russophobia.

Then I suggest ATS stops using WIKIPEDIA in certain topics and threads since its so easily manipulated.

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Agent_USA_Supporter
a reply to: yuppa

No the russians have been caught editing the wiki.

As my college teachers always say anyone and anyone in the world can edit the wiki as for the claims that someone did in the kremlin they have to do better then just showing there russophobia.

Then I suggest ATS stops using WIKIPEDIA in certain topics and threads since its so easily manipulated.

Russia under fire for editing Wikipedia page over MH17 tragedy

Russian government edits Wikipedia on flight MH17

A political battle has broken out on Wikipedia over an entry relating to the crash of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17, with the Russian government reportedly removing sections which accuse it of providing "terrorists" with missiles that were used to down the civilian airliner.

A Twitter bot which monitors edits made to the online encyclopaedia from Russian government IP addresses (unique numbers relating to certain computers or networks) has spotted that changes are being made to a page relating to the crash.

It appears that an internet user from within the All-Russia State Television and Radio Broadcasting Company (VGTRK) changed a Russian language version of a page listing civil aviation accidents to say that "The plane [flight MH17] was shot down by Ukrainian soldiers".

All edits to Wikipedia are permanently logged, with the username and IP address being stored along with the changes they have made.

An automated Twitter bot called congress-edits was created to monitor for changes made from US Congress computers and immediately tweet them. The source code powering that project was released to the public, allowing the creation of RUGovEdits which performs a similar role in Russia.

A tweet today from that account, translated into English, says: "Wikipedia article List of aircraft accidents in civil aviation has been edited by RTR [another name for VGTRK]".

Flight MH17 crashed in Ukraine on Thursday, on the border with Russia, with 298 people on board. There were no survivors.

Ukraine's interior ministry says the plane was shot down by a missile, while President Obama on Friday afternoon also said that it was likely to have been targeted by separatists.

Click link for remainder of article.
2 Sources at top.

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: spy66

Seeing as how the missile a su-25 fires its not gonna hit the cockpit Thats not accurate. its using the archer missiles now apparently and they are IR missiles. where do IR missiles go you ask?my to the hottest places on a aircraft! where is that at you ask? why THE ENGINES!!

And shyeah they launched a SAM a minute after there was nothing to shoot at huh? They tweeted about it. Nothing you can say will change that. Also SUKHOI says themselves that aircraft will not get to 33,000 ft. Also WHY SAW THE DAMN PLANE UP? removing peices of metal most likely. all verifiable. And also. If a missile hit the tail it would had shredded the black boxes most likely.

They are armed With proximity fuzes. That means they explode before impact.

The engine is probably the hot spot on Mh17. They are located quite Close to the center of the plain.

a reply to: spy66

How do we know what type of missile was used?

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: spy66

Seeing as how the missile a su-25 fires its not gonna hit the cockpit Thats not accurate. its using the archer missiles now apparently and they are IR missiles. where do IR missiles go you ask?my to the hottest places on a aircraft! where is that at you ask? why THE ENGINES!!

And shyeah they launched a SAM a minute after there was nothing to shoot at huh? They tweeted about it. Nothing you can say will change that. Also SUKHOI says themselves that aircraft will not get to 33,000 ft. Also WHY SAW THE DAMN PLANE UP? removing peices of metal most likely. all verifiable. And also. If a missile hit the tail it would had shredded the black boxes most likely.

They are armed With proximity fuzes. That means they explode before impact.

The engine is probably the hot spot on Mh17. They are located quite Close to the center of the plain.

Wrong the only missile ukraine has that could launch from an SU 25 a ground attack fighter much like the US warthog. This is what Russia claimed poped up amyway is the r 60 it was IR only until Russia came out with a variant adding proxity and radar but one Ukraine doesnt have them. And two they dont have IR than the warhead is only 9 lbs this wouldnt down a 777 since smaller aircraft have been hit and survived. Works taking down combat aircraft because there small and light.

So this is just a Russian propaganda ploy nothing more anyone who looks into the weopons Ukraine has cant take this seriously. Dont think a 777 isnt capable of taking a missile strike from air to air they are however a hundred and fifty pound warhead is another matter entirely it shreds the plane as we see.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: spy66

Seeing as how the missile a su-25 fires its not gonna hit the cockpit Thats not accurate. its using the archer missiles now apparently and they are IR missiles. where do IR missiles go you ask?my to the hottest places on a aircraft! where is that at you ask? why THE ENGINES!!

And shyeah they launched a SAM a minute after there was nothing to shoot at huh? They tweeted about it. Nothing you can say will change that. Also SUKHOI says themselves that aircraft will not get to 33,000 ft. Also WHY SAW THE DAMN PLANE UP? removing peices of metal most likely. all verifiable. And also. If a missile hit the tail it would had shredded the black boxes most likely.

They are armed With proximity fuzes. That means they explode before impact.

The engine is probably the hot spot on Mh17. They are located quite Close to the center of the plain.

Wrong the only missile ukraine has that could launch from an SU 25 a ground attack fighter much like the US warthog. This is what Russia claimed poped up amyway is the r 60 it was IR only until Russia came out with a variant adding proxity and radar but one Ukraine doesnt have them. And two they dont have IR than the warhead is only 9 lbs this wouldnt down a 777 since smaller aircraft have been hit and survived. Works taking down combat aircraft because there small and light.

So this is just a Russian propaganda ploy nothing more anyone who looks into the weopons Ukraine has cant take this seriously. Dont think a 777 isnt capable of taking a missile strike from air to air they are however a hundred and fifty pound warhead is another matter entirely it shreds the plane as we see.

Okay. You have proven me wrong. There were no SU-25 and so there were no air to air missile.

Thanks