Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

a reply to: ScrutonEyez

Who is national guard composed off???

It has citizens of several European nations - mostly white supremacists.

The army fighting rebels is worse than the rebels.

There is no way such a force can be trusted.

If posters on this thread may notice - USA accused Russia immediately after the crash.

US claimed that it had conclusive evidence (and continues to claim).

The news media is saturated with accusations against Russia.

Now it is several days. What conclusive proof has USA distributed through news media.

Tampering with evidence etc. are besides the point. USA is claiming from first five minutes that it has conclusive proof. Where is the proof???

When a country/countries are so prone to lies, how on hell an investigation is possible??

Nothing more substantial will happen in this case. West thinks Russia has been isolated due to MH17. West is dreaming.

The war in Ukraine will continue. Putin's Ukraine strategy is long term. Even winning Donetsk will change nothing. It is a civil war and border lines will reshape every day. Ukraine's economy will continue to slide down. We shall see how much money Europe is willing to pump into Ukraine.

Ukraine's society has the same ills which affect Russia, as society is basically the same.

People's expectations that State will do everything but work culture remains poor along with State's resources.

The oligarchs will not disappear and the shape of Ukraine's economy will not change due to EU association.

One year down the line, the EU Maidan will transform into anti-EU Maidan.

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul
a reply to: ScrutonEyez

Who was talking about an air to air missile?

See here

Page one, not one poster claiming that an Ukrainian jet shot MH17 with ATA missiles.

Looked at page 2 and 3 and the closest I could find to anyone claiming it did, was this,

the jet itself may only reach 23K but the missile reach is 12K with a standard. so theoretically it could have taken it down.

That´s it, so where is the crowd, I ask again.

Lol.

a reply to: GargIndia

The war in Ukraine will continue. Putin's Ukraine strategy is long term. Even winning Donetsk will change nothing. It is a civil war and border lines will reshape every day. Ukraine's economy will continue to slide down. We shall see how much money Europe is willing to pump into Ukraine.

Unfortunately, the bolded I agree with will continue to happen

And the part about Europe & U.S. will pay, remains to see.

a reply to: ScrutonEyez
who said it had to be on page 1??

Edit, or even in this thread??

Russian air force chief Lt. Gen. Igor Makushev suggested that the plane was shot out of the sky by the Ukrainians, using either missile systems or a fighter plane.

source

a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul

who said it had to be on page 1??

I don't know why you refered to page one in your response to me if that piece of info was what you were going for in the first place.

The point is that the person I responded too was acting like there was a crowd of people in here claiming that, but there wasn't, and your initial try failed, that much is clear.

In your new example, still noone claims that MH17 was brought down with ATA missiles.

Lol.

a reply to: ScrutonEyez

Yes my mistake - wrong thread - sorry - should have been to page 1 of the Su-25 thread.

but the subsequent link provides you with the info you were asking for

a reply to: ScrutonEyez

It seems someone in Russia DID say it.

And four pages of discussion

originally posted by: ScrutonEyez
a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul

who said it had to be on page 1??

I don't know why you refered to page one in your response to me if that piece of info was what you were going for in the first place.

The point is that the person I responded too was acting like there was a crowd of people in here claiming that, but there wasn't, and your initial try failed, that much is clear.

In your new example, still noone claims that MH17 was brought down with ATA missiles.

Lol.

We did mention the Russian jet theory but it was quickly shot down as implausible. I think even Russians have dumped that idea by now. Apparently the latest is just say well if they did they didnt mean to. Which oddly still doesnt explain how the got the sams in the first place but im sure local hardware store or something.

a reply to: Zaphod58

It has been in the news that pro russians got their hands on a BUK-M1 after a battle with the ukrainian army, but that source is russian, so not very reliable.

On July 14, they shot down a military plane (antonov 26 flying at FL220) which has been filmed and placed on youtube.



What are the odds that some people who are pro russian and get their hands on such a powerfull weapon know how to operate it?
But they sure know how to use it and it is also used to shoot MH17 out of the sky.

A question which i ponder about, does this equipment give information about what type of aircraft is flying within reach of the radar? or is it simply a dot on their screen and do they simply shoot at any aircraft which invades their airspace.
MH17 was about 30 kilometers away when the missile was launched, so they could not have seen it, let alone that they could have seen it was being escorted by fighter jets.
The SU-25 has a ceiling of 7000 mtr, it will have great difficulty climbing to 10000 mtr (if it even can go that high) because of the aerodynamics.
It's a simple thing in aviation, the higher an aircraft goes, the higher the stallspeed is and eventually an aircraft will meet the coffin corner.

a reply to: earthling42

ITAR-TASS June 2014 - Donetsk defence forces take control of army unit equipped with missile defence systems

DONETSK, June 29, /ITAR-TASS/. Self-defence forces of the Donetsk People’s Republic have taken control over a missile defence army unit equipped with Buk missile defence systems, the press service of the Donetsk People’s Republic told Itar-Tass on Sunday.

So far, no details are available about the number and condition of the missile systems taken over by the self-defence forces. The press service refused to comment.

The Buk missile defence system is a mobile medium-range surface-to-air missile (SAM) system designed to defend field troops and logistics installations against air threats in conditions of heavy electronic countermeasures and intense enemy fire.

originally posted by: earthling42
a reply to: Zaphod58

It has been in the news that pro russians got their hands on a BUK-M1 after a battle with the ukrainian army, but that source is russian, so not very reliable.

On July 14, they shot down a military plane (antonov 26 flying at FL220) which has been filmed and placed on youtube.

What are the odds that some people who are pro russian and get their hands on such a powerfull weapon know how to operate it?
But they sure know how to use it and it is also used to shoot MH17 out of the sky.

A question which i ponder about, does this equipment give information about what type of aircraft is flying within reach of the radar? or is it simply a dot on their screen and do they simply shoot at any aircraft which invades their airspace.
MH17 was about 30 kilometers away when the missile was launched, so they could not have seen it, let alone that they could have seen it was being escorted by fighter jets.
The SU-25 has a ceiling of 7000 mtr, it will have great difficulty climbing to 10000 mtr (if it even can go that high) because of the aerodynamics.
It's a simple thing in aviation, the higher an aircraft goes, the higher the stallspeed is and eventually an aircraft will meet the coffin corner.

Well to answer your question its Russian equipment they dont really put in safeguards in anything they make.Now unless its linked to other weapons or an air traffic control system. It has a tracking radar and its up to the operator to decide what it is tracking. As far as operating it yes it requires training your not going to have someone just hop on and shoot down an aircraft. at least not successfully firing is easy enough but they do need training on how to unlock the launcher and prepare the vehicle so it can launch.

Thought you might want to see this shows the rebels commander bragging or is that threatening. Either way at the time of his post he thought it was a victory over the Ukrainian government. As they say oops this post was quickly removed. Figure lots of people missed it so have a look.

www.businessinsider.com...

a reply to: Xcathdra

But how reliable is that source? it could well be that Russia has delivered this weapon while media spins it into seized from ukrainian forces.

a reply to: dragonridr

Yes, and also the remark of Putin "this would not have happened if the hostilities had not resumed in eastern Ukraine on June 28" gives it away to.

originally posted by: TDawgRex
Currently, I am leaning strongly in the opinion that the Rebels shot down MH17. Why?

- Because they have already shot down Ukraine aircraft in the area.
- They are rebels, and as such are not as disciplined a force.
- They have gained weapons through capture and have also been supplied weapons from Russia. This has been documented.
- The rebels have no air capability to speak of, especially in regards to the size of a Boing 777. So it make absolutely no sense for the Ukrainians to down a aircraft that was close to leaving their airspace anyways.
- The captured messages between the rebels, indicate that some one screwed up.

Any one with a ounce of common sense would realize that if this was to played out as a false flag op (PSYOP) would realize how bad it could backfire.

I think that this is nothing more than a case of a trigger happy rebel with tragic consequences.

i'm still lagging behind in this thread as can be seen, but i've decided to comment on that 'documented' BS, not sure if it was posted already.

the proof that kiev folks used a photo of their own BUK claiming it was a BUK operated by separatists and that they got it from russia:
humanrightsinvestigations.org...

so far, 99% of this thread is rumour mixed with throwing blame without evidence and constant attacks at everyone suggesting that kiev is responsible.

you really want the WW3 that bad?
seriously?

you'll get it, and the more you'll believe in the lies of your governments and the media, the sooner it will happen.
and you will cry over your own foolishness then, but it'll be too late.

originally posted by: earthling42
a reply to: Xcathdra

But how reliable is that source? it could well be that Russia has delivered this weapon while media spins it into seized from ukrainian forces.

Well people take it as fact whenever there is a story against the west. I guess when the info does not support the pro Russian position the information becomes unreliable?

originally posted by: jedi_hamster
so far, 99% of this thread is rumour mixed with throwing blame without evidence and constant attacks at everyone suggesting that kiev is responsible.

Within the first few hours Russia already assigned blame to Ukraine. So much so in fact that Russia state media got caught editing the Russian Wikipedia file on the shoot down of MH17, editing it to state Ukraine shot it down. And with no evidence to support the claim.

Your thoughts on that or is it a double standard?

originally posted by: jedi_hamster
you really want the WW3 that bad?
seriously?

Seriously, you guys keep coming back with this idiotic assertion people want war with Russia and yet you have absolutely nothing to support that position.

So, its ok for you to blame the west and accuse them of wanting war with nothing to back it up.. Dont look now but you just did what you chastised people in this thread of doing.

You do realize if a nuclear war occurred that NO ONE would win it? Contrary to comments from some of the Russian supporters, radioactive fallout does cross international boundaries.

originally posted by: jedi_hamster
you'll get it, and the more you'll believe in the lies of your governments and the media, the sooner it will happen.
and you will cry over your own foolishness then, but it'll be too late.

Good observation... Now, lets spruce it up a bit to make it more realistic and accurate.

"вы получите его, и чем больше вы будете верить в ложь ваших правительств и средств массовой информации, тем быстрее это произойдет.
и вы будете плакать над собственной глупостью то, но это будет слишком поздно

vy poluchite yego, i chem bol'she vy budete verit' v lozh' vashikh pravitel'stv i sredstv massovoy informatsii, tem bystreye eto proizoydet.
i vy budete plakat' nad sobstvennoy glupost'yu to, no eto budet slishkom pozdno".


So based on observations to date.. The Russian supporters think Russia is invincible and that the west wants war with Russia.

Feel free to put that nugget under your pillow and wait for the tooth fairy.

The rebels have BUK's in their possession.
The incident occurred in rebel controlled territory.
The rebels posted their exploits on social media.
The rebels refused people access to the site.
The rebels allowed looting to ocur at the site.
The rebels removed evidence from the site.
The rebels destroyed evidence at the site.
The rebels continued to refuse access to the site by professionals for 4 days.

Just like Crimea, Russia is giving a theory on what happened on a daily basis that keeps changing. Next im sure Putin will tell us the men in uniforms with no insignias that operated the missile launchers weren't Russia.

So we have now reached a point where all Putin has left to threaten people with is war. That happens when you try to play the 1980s is back in style game. The problem is it will not work. Russia would no more survive a nuclear war than any other country would.

So how about we put the nuclear bomb fairy tale to rest and focus on the task at hand?

a reply to: jedi_hamster

I suggest you look at the picture and the video different models of the Buk launcher this was discussed. As for world War 3 never happen Russia knows it cant win against NATO. So Putin wont let it happen. Dont think Putin wasnt warned of the consequences of moving troops into Eastern Ukraine. Those kind of threats are handled through back channels. Putins gambit only works with plausible deniability because than even the west can just point fingers. Problem is it appears that train left the station and he cant claim there isnt Russian involvement now. Which is whe the EU is looking into tougher sanctions and now are planning to attack energy sector with the dutch leading the call.

And sadly from this point unless Putin becomes part of the solution things are going to get very bad for the Russian people.