Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

originally posted by: moobie

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: moobie

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: rigel4
Al Jazeera reporting that the flight data recorders have been found..
We're edging towards the truth here.

And why would the flight data recorders tell us anything other than what we know already. plane stopped working at a certain point on it's journey.
It's not going to tell us what hit the plane or who fired what at it. And i doubt very much that the pilots even had time to talk about what was going on.

Well for starters it could tell us if they were intentionally diverted off course.
It can tell us if other fighter aircraft were in the area.
It can tell us if the plane was under fighter escort.

You know, all those things pro russians keep claiming yet can never support.

Ukranian ATC logs and and radar tapes can show us that also, I don't see them being asked for and published.

I dont see anything where the items were requested and refused either.

What's wrong with simply handing them over without asking.

Two who the separatists ? what could they do with it nothing. Unless you mean Russia even though there not supposed to be involved. But im pretty sure Russia would have to ask for them. And of course they dont want to because it doesnt look good to do so. So your throwing out a hypothetical argument as some kind of counter to facts being presented. And it has no basis in reality at all id say the reason for the importance of the black box is the audio recording not so much flight data.

originally posted by: BMorris
They probably have been handed over, to the relevant authorities. General public isn't normally classed as a relevant authority.

Not to mention, in some investigations, evidence is not going to be shared with the public as it could possibly tip off those involved on what the evidence says, allowing them time to counter it.

a reply to: BMorris If you are so morally outraged, pitch in with other like-minded people and drop in off a plane. I hear all mterials are going cheap Russians/ Americans. Otherwise, get your hand off your ...

a reply to: moobie

What's wrong with simply handing them over without asking.

That is a good question that should be asked of the separatists concerning the passengers bodies, and personal effects that they have been rooting through.

Which means they should let the Dutch in there to deal with this loss of Dutch lives without having to ask.

Indian plane tried to contact downed Malaysia MH17

An Air India plane flying less than 25 kilometres from Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 when it was downed had tried to make contact with the pilots, a newspaper said Sunday.

The Times of India said Ukrainian air traffic controllers had asked the Air India pilots to try and establish contact with the Malaysia Airlines jet, which had stopped responding to its calls.

The Air India plane, which was flying from Delhi to Birmingham and was less than 25 kilometres (15.5 miles) from Malaysia MH17, received no response, according to the paper.

"When the pilots learned of the cause of the crash later, they were stunned."

According to the newspaper, it is standard practice for air traffic controllers to ask pilots of aircraft in the vicinity to get in touch with pilots who have stopped responding.

The newspaper also said that minutes before the crash, the Air India pilots heard air traffic controllers give the Malaysian plane a "direct routing".

This allows a plane to fly straight rather than tracking from one navigation point to another, and saves time and fuel.

click for article

"The AI Dreamliner was less than 25km from the Malaysian aircraft when the latter was hit by a missile," an unidentified airline source told the newspaper.

Kerry makes most explicit U.S. case against Russia over Malaysia jet downing

WASHINGTON, July 20 (Reuters) - Secretary of State John Kerry on Sunday laid out what he said was overwhelming evidence of Russian complicity in the downing of a Malaysian airliner in eastern Ukraine as he made the U.S. case against Moscow in the most emphatic and explicit terms yet.

Delivering his points in a blitz of U.S. morning news shows, Kerry demanded that Russia take responsibility for actions of allied separatists suspected of shooting down the passenger plane and he expressed disgust over the rebels' "grotesque" mishandling of victims' bodies at the crash site.

Kerry threatened further sanctions against Moscow and called on European allies, who have lagged behind Washington in imposing penalties over the Ukraine crisis, to take Thursday's plane downing as a "wake-up call" to get tougher with Russia. He also raised the prospect of increased assistance to Ukraine's embattled pro-Western government.

But despite the angry rhetoric, Kerry offered no specific new plans to force Russian President Vladimir Putin, accused by the West of trying to destabilize Ukraine, to back down.

President Barack Obama's Republican critics responded by accusing the administration of being too restrained and called for broader "sectoral" sanctions on Russia's energy and banking industries, something Washington has avoided so far because of the potential damage to the European and global economies.

Kerry's words added to a chorus of anger from Western powers over the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, which killed all 298 people on board, and the subsequent problems gaining access to the crash site in an area of eastern Ukraine controlled by pro-Russian rebels.[ID: nL4N0PV031]

While stopping short of placing direct blame on Moscow, Kerry put forth the most pointed and detailed U.S. accusations so far that Russia provided pro-Moscow insurgents with the sophisticated anti-aircraft systems used to down the plane.

He said the United States has seen major supplies moving into Ukraine from Russia in the last month, including a 150-vehicle convoy of armored personnel carriers, tanks and rocket launchers transferred to the separatists several weeks ago.

He also said the United States intercepted conversations about the transfer to separatists of the Russian SA-11 radar-guided SA11 missile system it blames for the plane downing.

U.S. authorities have seen a video of a missile launcher - with a least one rocket missing from its battery - moving back into Russia from a rebel-held area, Kerry said.

"There's (an) enormous amount of evidence, even more evidence that I just documented, that points to the involvement of Russia in providing these systems, training the people on them," Kerry said on CBS's "Face the Nation."

Moscow denies involvement and has accused the Ukrainian military in the shootdown.

A U.S. official familiar with Washington's assessments of the incident said Russia was believed to have decided to reinforce the rebels with more advanced weaponry because of concern that Ukrainian government forces had been making gains.

click link for remainder of article.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Indian plane tried to contact downed Malaysia MH17

An Air India plane flying less than 25 kilometres from Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 when it was downed had tried to make contact with the pilots, a newspaper said Sunday.

The Times of India said Ukrainian air traffic controllers had asked the Air India pilots to try and establish contact with the Malaysia Airlines jet, which had stopped responding to its calls.

The Air India plane, which was flying from Delhi to Birmingham and was less than 2kilometres (15.5 miles) from Malaysia MH17, received no response, according to the paper.

"When the pilots learned of the cause of the crash later, they were stunned."

According to the newspaper, it is standard practice for air traffic controllers to ask pilots of aircraft in the vicinity to get in touch with pilots who have stopped responding.

The newspaper also said that minutes before the crash, the Air India pilots heard air traffic controllers give the Malaysian plane a "direct routing".

This allows a plane to fly straight rather than tracking from one navigation point to another, and saves time and fuel.

click for article

"The AI Dreamliner was less than 25km from the Malaysian aircraft when the latter was hit by a missile," an unidentified airline source told the newspaper.

Would be nice to see the transcripts and also the voice recordings of them too.

Morally outraged about the incident? Of course I am, but I'm also intelligent enough to realise that:
a) I'm not qualified to perform an analysis on radar data.
b) Not qualified to interpret said analysis.
c) Not qualified to know or interpret international law or politics.
d) The premature revelation of any factual data to the general public could actually do more harm than help.

The best thing to do right now, is just follow the emergent situation, and let the people who are experts in their fields, and recognised authorities do what they are paid to do, and not try and play armchair-CSI.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Kerry makes most explicit U.S. case against Russia over Malaysia jet downing

WASHINGTON, July 20 (Reuters) - Secretary of State John Kerry on Sunday laid out what he said was overwhelming evidence of Russian complicity in the downing of a Malaysian airliner in eastern Ukraine as he made the U.S. case against Moscow in the most emphatic and explicit terms yet.

Delivering his points in a blitz of U.S. morning news shows, Kerry demanded that Russia take responsibility for actions of allied separatists suspected of shooting down the passenger plane and he expressed disgust over the rebels' "grotesque" mishandling of victims' bodies at the crash site.

Kerry threatened further sanctions against Moscow and called on European allies, who have lagged behind Washington in imposing penalties over the Ukraine crisis, to take Thursday's plane downing as a "wake-up call" to get tougher with Russia. He also raised the prospect of increased assistance to Ukraine's embattled pro-Western government.

But despite the angry rhetoric, Kerry offered no specific new plans to force Russian President Vladimir Putin, accused by the West of trying to destabilize Ukraine, to back down.

President Barack Obama's Republican critics responded by accusing the administration of being too restrained and called for broader "sectoral" sanctions on Russia's energy and banking industries, something Washington has avoided so far because of the potential damage to the European and global economies.

Kerry's words added to a chorus of anger from Western powers over the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, which killed all 298 people on board, and the subsequent problems gaining access to the crash site in an area of eastern Ukraine controlled by pro-Russian rebels.[ID: nL4N0PV031]

While stopping short of placing direct blame on Moscow, Kerry put forth the most pointed and detailed U.S. accusations so far that Russia provided pro-Moscow insurgents with the sophisticated anti-aircraft systems used to down the plane.

He said the United States has seen major supplies moving into Ukraine from Russia in the last month, including a 150-vehicle convoy of armored personnel carriers, tanks and rocket launchers transferred to the separatists several weeks ago.

He also said the United States intercepted conversations about the transfer to separatists of the Russian SA-11 radar-guided SA11 missile system it blames for the plane downing.

U.S. authorities have seen a video of a missile launcher - with a least one rocket missing from its battery - moving back into Russia from a rebel-held area, Kerry said.

"There's (an) enormous amount of evidence, even more evidence that I just documented, that points to the involvement of Russia in providing these systems, training the people on them," Kerry said on CBS's "Face the Nation."

Moscow denies involvement and has accused the Ukrainian military in the shootdown.

A U.S. official familiar with Washington's assessments of the incident said Russia was believed to have decided to reinforce the rebels with more advanced weaponry because of concern that Ukrainian government forces had been making gains.

click link for remainder of article.

As expected from an American, flapping their gobs as usual, and the usual war calls comming out.

Nothing to see here, move along. Yet another big mouthed yank on the mic.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Not to mention, in some investigations, evidence is not going to be shared with the public as it could possibly tip off those involved on what the evidence says, allowing them time to counter it.

And that is why the US has a good idea on who did it, but they will never divulge the way they got that info.

They have enough evidence to take it to the UN, so I am going to say we have certain military assets keeping eyes on everything that is happening in Ukraine without even being involved in the conflict.

originally posted by: BMorris
Morally outraged about the incident? Of course I am, but I'm also intelligent enough to realise that:
a) I'm not qualified to perform an analysis on radar data.
b) Not qualified to interpret said analysis.
c) Not qualified to know or interpret international law or politics.
d) The premature revelation of any factual data to the general public could actually do more harm than help.

The best thing to do right now, is just follow the emergent situation, and let the people who are experts in their fields, and recognised authorities do what they are paid to do, and not try and play armchair-CSI.

Regarding your point d)

Well, what about the premature accusations and finger pointing with war drums beating comming out of the West?

Regarding your point c)

Well, if we are not qualified to understand international or domestic or regional politics, we have no informed reason to vote or even show support of being in regions we don't understand.

If we are to look for radar flight evidence, to back up any evidence of ATC, then the neighbouring countries could be asked, although I am not sure what their radar range would be. Also look at the neighbours, not all a savoury bunch (no offence meant).

originally posted by: bigfoot007
If we are to look for radar flight evidence, to back up any evidence of ATC, then the neighbouring countries could be asked, although I am not sure what their radar range would be. Also look at the neighbours, not all a savoury bunch (no offence meant).

Neighbouring countries may not cover the area, that is why they hand off.

originally posted by: moobie
Well, what about the premature accusations and finger pointing with war drums beating comming out of the West?

Or Russia..Or the Separatists...

It isn't just the West pointing fingers here, Russia is trying (quite badly) to hide the fact they have grossly cocked up here and doing it's own fair share of finger pointing and obfuscation.

a reply to: Xcathdra

The newspaper also said that minutes before the crash, the Air India pilots heard air traffic controllers give the Malaysian plane a "direct routing".

Interesting, especially since Malysian Airlines president(I think) said a few days ago "no last minute directions were given".

originally posted by: DaFunk
a reply to: Xcathdra

The newspaper also said that minutes before the crash, the Air India pilots heard air traffic controllers give the Malaysian plane a "direct routing".

Interesting, especially since Malysian Airlines president(I think) said a few days ago "no last minute directions were given".

Given their track history in handling information, this comes as no supprise.

originally posted by: moobie

originally posted by: bigfoot007
If we are to look for radar flight evidence, to back up any evidence of ATC, then the neighbouring countries could be asked, although I am not sure what their radar range would be. Also look at the neighbours, not all a savoury bunch (no offence meant).

Neighbouring countries may not cover the area, that is why they hand off.

Russia would certainly cover that area probably from Rostov

originally posted by: bigfoot007

originally posted by: moobie

originally posted by: bigfoot007
If we are to look for radar flight evidence, to back up any evidence of ATC, then the neighbouring countries could be asked, although I am not sure what their radar range would be. Also look at the neighbours, not all a savoury bunch (no offence meant).

Neighbouring countries may not cover the area, that is why they hand off.

Russia would certainly cover that area probably from Rostov

Cerainly, Probably, which is it?

a reply to: Xcathdra

Can you provide the flight number?

originally posted by: DaFunk
a reply to: Xcathdra

The newspaper also said that minutes before the crash, the Air India pilots heard air traffic controllers give the Malaysian plane a "direct routing".

Interesting, especially since Malysian Airlines president(I think) said a few days ago "no last minute directions were given".

what needs to be establish to understand that comment is if the pilots requested the routing or if ATC initiated it based on other flight traffic in the area.

Regardless the airspace was not closed at the level MH17 was flying at. this is further corroborated by the other jets, like airindia, being in the same airspace.