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originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: FlySolo and BuzzyWigs
Dear FlySolo and BuzzyWigs,
I think we can can have a useful discussion. I despair of it with some people, but it seems you both have a desire for peace and some thinking skills, I just hope I'm not too outclassed.
Let's assume that this can be solved. That's a huge assumption. I was at a dinner party tonight. The consensus seemed to be that Israel can't shoot at Hamas because that will kill innocent civilians, and that Hamas will keep shooting, because that's what they've always done.
if they're right, then I see two choices. Israel can die a slow death by being slowly shot to death, attacks on airports, roads, population centers, etc. Or Israel will just say "Obscenity! If we're going to go, let's at least have a decent war and clean them out first. I don't like either of those choices.
Let's try to find something. Here's one idea, bad, but it may get your thoughts started. Israel goes to Hamas and says, "OK, here's the deal. We stop shelling or performing any military actions in your areas. We also lift all blockades, we just have the standard customs inspections every country has. We'll even put in neutral nation custom officials. Have your own policemen and patrols. We'll make sure you have the same water that everybody in this desert land has. We'll make sure you have full electricity.
"We'll also stop building more settlements. Sounds good? Great! We're happy. Now if you ever build a tunnel into our country with out our permission, launch attacks from your country, or allow another country or group to attack from your country, you will not have to worry about any consequences. The reason for that is that you will be dead. Everyone in the Palestinian territories will be killed. We may accept individual surrenders or we may not. The only places in which a stone will be left on a stone will be where we want there to be.
"We are going to broadcast this to the people of the world, and make sure your citizens know all about the deal. Your people now have a real incentive to make sure their government is peaceful. Neither of us will ever attack the other ever again.
"If you reject this deal, the world will know you don't want peace, you want to fight. We'll pencil you in on our calendar."
I'm just going a little out of the box.
Consider what the Arabs give up. A one sentence post card saying "Israel is a Jewish state, and they own the land they're on. Which of course is worth the post card it's written on.
First, after the next election, the post card is torn up. What's Israel going to do about it?
Second, the Palestinians have a terrible record of abiding by agreements. Why should Israel trust them?
In exchange for the post card, Israel gives away land, supports Palestinian statehood, opens the borders allowing peaceful and military goods to come in, and a couple of other things.
And what happens if Hamas does anything? Will we let Israel invade Palestine? Will we send them a nasty note?
Forgetting any of the emotion involved, this seems to be a one sided, pro-Palestinian deal.
Israel gave away the Sinai Peninsula, and pulled every single Jew out of Gaza. Surprisingly, that didn't get them peace.
The whole concept of earning land after milestones is to encourage peace.
Lose it??? And who is going to take it away, the UN? Remember the vetoes.
It doesn't matter what culture you come from, it's human nature to want to succeed when things are going well. You don't just earn 360 square km then do something stupid to lose it.
Applied to Israel? Did you forget applying at least some kind of pressure to hamas and the Palestinians?
Because the world is starting to get sick of the crap. International pressure should be applied to Israel to make it work.
Clearly, no military action at all will be tolerated from Palestine. Zero tolerance.
It doesn't even satisfy my common sense. Hamas will say, "OK, guys, we're done. Let's go back to our goats. Turn in your rockets and all that military stuff to the government (Which by the way, isHamas."
So there shouldn't even be a need for Hamas. If there ever is a terrorist attack, it would be a single cell not affiliated to the government. In which case, both states work together to find the attacker(s) and destroy them. I would think that should satisfy Israel's paranoia and scare off any would-be terrorists.
even with Iron Dome, and stuffing half their population in shelters, Israel has still lost people to the rockets. Let it feed?
All they can do is be a pestering noisy mosquito. How do you stop a mosquito without slapping it? Let it feed.
NO. Ok, is that settled?
What else does Israel gain? Acceptance by the Arabs that Israel is it's own state. Isn't that what you want?