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Why do peole think that Jesus was god?

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posted on Aug, 4 2014 @ 03:21 PM
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What makes you think that Paul wrote Hebrews, another tradition?


Oh.no..I know what it says at the end of Hebrews...but Paul is speaking to Hebrews.or more appropriately ...Jews..in the flesh...who would naturally know more Olde Testament than a non Hebrew..or non Jew.

Paul was no ordinary Hebrew..for he was a learned man. and Timothy was not raised in the Hebrew faith...but taught of Paul and often traveled with him. Paul is the perfect man to teach and to Hebrews though he is considered the apostle to the Gentiles. Paul would naturally know much Olde Testament. And Hebrews uses a lot of Olde Testamet references.


He was talking to Jewish Christians.


Wow...that is not my point. My point is Jewish Christians or not..they would know more Olde Testament than those not brought up in the OLde Testament..non Jews.




The custom among many nations and peoples is that a testament or will and testament..a promise/ a covenant can be changed many times...but the one which goes into effect is the Last Will and Testament. The Last Promise. The Last Covenant.




That isn't how Paul puts it. The writer of Hebrews uses an analogy of a will to make the point that Jesus had to die for it to go into effect.



Paul does indeed say that...but that is not the point I was making in the quote. The point known my most peoples is that a person can change their will many times as they live..or liveth..but the testament which goes into effect is the last will written...the last will and testament. I put that in their for clarity and background.
The death of the testator is what makes a will go into effect. But before one dies..one can make as many wills and testaments as one likes..changing them as one likes..the one which goes into effect is the last one when one dies. One's last will and testament. This we have from the Olde Testament unto the New Testament.




The event which makes a Will and Testament go into effect..a Last Will and Testament is the death of the Testator.

And it is obvious that no one died for the Olde Testament.




Which should tell you that Hebrews was using an incomplete analogy to refer to just one aspect of the situation that now exists with the old covenant being obsolete.


I do not get it that the Olde Testament is obsolete. From whence do you arrive at that conclusion??

We are to know the Olde Testament...as our schoolmaster. This alone does not make the Olde Testament Obsolete.
For we are to know why ...when and where...the reasons for things to be as they are today..the very patterns of the Olde Testament unto the New Testament.

Much of this was cleared up to me when reading the accounts of Flavius Josephus and the Wars of the Jews and what happened in Jerusalem in 70 ad. I was astounded at the abominations the Jews were doing amongst themselves before they were surrounded and entrapped by the Romans. A horrendous account of what happened there.
I can see and understand why many of the Hebrews today do not like Josephus and or his accounts.

The Belevers had already left...Jerusalem.

It can also be found in the Qumran scrolls as they are translated...the customs ..how they lived...their abominations et al.

All verication of the Olde Testament as our schoolmaster.

One begins to get a sense of why history is such an poorly taught subject today. Much of this .is not desired that we know today.

And I can take this further in pattern recognition today...but this will suffice for now.



You are repeating a circular argument.


I am connecting dots..into a pattern. Not quoting Greek or Greek Experts.



Wow!! I can make this point about the RCC and the conditions there under Divine Right of Kings and that reading the Word was discouraged except amongst trained clergy..not the people per se. It was often read in Latin..not the language of the people.



King James was the virtual Pope of the Church of England, just under the term, King.
He made a version of the Bible to be read in the church that he was the Pope over.


Except that under King James the Bible was made more available to any of the people than ever under lands with the RCC. This is known and obvious to anyone who knows history.
And the history of England shows that something happened there which would never have happened in a Catholic nation.
That divine right of kings was put an end to by a people using the knowledge and understanding of the Bible which bears his name.
No Pope capable of thinking would ever do this to the line of kings or the feudal power structure...by writing such an Bible..for the ordinary folk. The RCC indeed had this one figured out.
And kings and governments ever since have been trying by one means or another to return back to absolute power and the history also records these results since King James.....if you know how to read the patterns.


Thanks for your posts,
Orangetom




posted on Aug, 4 2014 @ 10:27 PM
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a reply to: orangetom1999

Wow!! That is obvious in John beginning at the first chapter and for us or we as it states... to behold His Glory.

And we are taught that His Glory He would not share with another. So from where or whom does He get His Glory?? Which we behold??
So what you seem to be doing is using logic to come to the conclusion that Jesus is actually God, meaning the same person as who Jesus calls his father.

The starting point for this exercise in logic is the fact (that you assume to be true) that if there is any glory, then it has to be God, because no one else is allowed to have any glory.

How do you figure into this scheme, Jesus' prayer to his father to glorify him, as he was previously, in heaven?
John 17

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.
For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

(2011 NIV)

Jesus is asking to be glorified by God.
Apparently you think that Jesus was talking to himself and switching between father and son, and going back and forth between the plural to the singular.

As to your “proof” text, Isaiah 42:8,

"I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols.
(2011 NIV)

This is YHWH talking to Israel (the Jews) in Babylonian exile, comparing their spiritual blindness to idols *, where He is not going to lend His virtuous and glorious name to this metaphorical idol (those deaf and dumb things).

Isaiah goes on to say (speaking for the Lord) that He is going to heal the people of their blindness.
This is preparatory to their return from exile, to return to the Land of Israel.

What you have is the Jewish understanding, from reading Isaiah, that God would send them off to Babylon, to not be a country, if it bore the Lord's name, and they were not living to God's moral standards.

But if they could be healed of that, then God would restore their country.

Jesus is using that logic that was developed by Jewish scholars of the scripture, saying that he had upheld God's name to that standard, and was now therefore worthy of being glorified himself.

* for a reference on how this analogy is being used, read page 205 in Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament, by G. Beale
edit on 4-8-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 4 2014 @ 11:29 PM
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a reply to: orangetom1999

It does say concerning when or before the Child was born...."that holy thing which is born of thee."
But by the time He is born..He has a name...Jesus. And a title..The Christ. For He shall save His people.

And this is further clarified for us...in the Book of John...under the Word...In the Beginning was the Word...etc etc...and goes on to bring it down to the Word which dwelt amongst us and we beheld His Glory.
What would have been the purpose of the writer of the Gospel of John in making this description, if you theory is correct, that this was actually talking about Jesus, rather than what it says, which is the Logos?
As you pointed out, it already said in Matthew, that Jesus being in Mary's womb was a "holy thing".

This is not an analogy or symbolic...or representative of ..but actual...physical.
It should be obvious that this is metaphorical language being used, such as when it says, "In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it."

That much is clear and the author here is talking about God from the Beginning...from the Word..unto Jesus and His glory which was beheld when He dwelt with them.
"The Word" is not a "name" of God, like you imagine, but is an aspect of God, which is "with" God, in a metaphorical sense. It is what makes things happen, such as creation in Genesis, that all these things come about because God said so.
In this situation, God wanted to give life to people and that was through "the light" which was what Jesus was bringing to people, which is righteousness, or in other terms, godly living.
"His", in regards to "glory", is an interpretation by the translator, making the conscience decision to have this as a proof text to support the Trinity doctrine that the Church authorizing the translation, had already accepted as true.
The Greek word being ambiguous, being able to mean, him or it, as the context applies.
It should be understood as "it" since it is talking about this ability for God to have His will accomplished.

Concerning "unto Jesus and His glory", see my last post for my commentary on Jesus' prayer in John 17.
Jesus was glorified after his resurrection, as a result of having lived a life "well done".
He wasn't "glorified" by the fact that he showed up at the River Jordan to participate in the Baptist's work.


edit on 5-8-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2014 @ 01:20 AM
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a reply to: orangetom1999

Wow!! Notice Faith is spelled with a capital letter here....to differentiate it from faith. Faith is one of His names...I am using Faith to mean and indicate Him in this case...not Greek..but Him.
You keep mentioning your theory on the names of God but you never actually demonstrate how it exits in the text.
So, then are you saying that you can argue your case for your theories by God?
Does this mean that you are somehow God, or that you are the spokesperson of God, so that what you say has to be true?

Hmmm so this is not clear In the Olde Testament ..that there would be a redeemer ...and that the Olde Testament would be replaced with a New Testament....a new covenant with people who were not His people???
No. It might help your case if you could actually point this out in the text rather than your general impression on the meaning of the Bible.

A foreshadow...of things to come. This did not happen and was not foretold??? Wow!!
Not really.

And Paul was wrong in the New Testament when he stated that the Olde Testament ...of Hagar with her son Ishmael...Mt Siani was in bondage with her children. And that the New Testament was free and the mother of us all...by Sarah and her child Isaac.
Paul does not mention a new covenant.
I already told you in an earlier post that in Galatians, he is referring to the earlier covenant with Abraham, specifically in regards to his seed, who Paul equated with Jesus.
So he means two covenants, one of Moses, now obsolete, with the fulfillment of the earlier covenant, with the advent of Jesus.

This is a foreshadow...from the Olde Testament unto the New Testament. I know this because...
Of something, just not what you think it is.



posted on Aug, 5 2014 @ 01:40 AM
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a reply to: orangetom1999

Wow!!! Probably?????? This is not authorative...probably??..to speak with authority..this is speculation. Prime mover?? Wow!!
Here for prime mover ...I can say.."May the Force be with you!!"

Please speak with authority here. What you are quoting here is Philosophies of men...mans wisdom and knowledge..not what God teaches and His Wisdom...Wisdom..also one of His Names. Wow!!
This is what I find to be more annoying to me than anything else a poster might say in response to my comments on Bible verses, that I don't talk like a cult leader, as if everything I say is coming straight from God. I think it is ridiculous as an argument, and shows a shallowness and an easy slipping into character attack.

To understand the Bible, it takes hard work, and even though I have put a lot of time into that, I am every day finding out new things, so what I say is my results at this point within an ongoing process.

I am trying to point out to you that what you believe is according to traditions of men, and is not what you would believe if you started out on your own with a Greek text and a lexicon.

If I want this kind of thing, Prime mover, I go to a Bible college or seminary.
All you would have to do is read any commentary on the Gospel of John.

IF I want prime mover ...I read Charles Darwin..or Richard Dawkins...or quantum Physics..Mechanics..et al.
Or you could read what Philo the Jew (alternatively, Philo of Alexandria, a contemporary of Jesus) and what he said about the Logos.
You seem to be proud of an apparent profound ignorance of actual biblical science.

I'll stick with the Word...Thanks...I'll stick with God...me and my house.
Even though it was written thousands of years ago in another language and in another culture, you don't think that this is a matter to take into consideration?

You know...now that I think about it in that context...that is also what makes the Qumran findings very interesting.
What was learned from those tablets and scrolls about those times ...historically..the people..customs/traditions etc.
Yes, it might help if you were to familiarize yourself with some history of the period.



posted on Aug, 5 2014 @ 01:50 AM
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Funny how often this comes up as a topic. It has been answered over and over again over the years. Anyway, here's the Trinity:

TRINITY IN THE BIBLE (MANY MORE REFERENCES AVAILABLE)

One God:
1 Tim 2:5, Deut 4:35, 6:4, Isa 43:10-11:

Plurality of One God:
Gen 1:26, 3:22, 11:7, Isa 6:8.
Isa 9:6 shows the multiple persons of God as Father, Son, and Counselor
(aka Comforter, which Jesus said he would send to his disciples John 15:26)

The Father is God
Isa 6:3 ,1 Cor 8:6, John 17:1-3, II Cor 1:3, Philippians 2:11, Col 1:3,
I Peter 1:2, Matt 6:8, 7:21, Gal 1:1

The Son is God
Jn 12:41, 5:18, 20:28, 1:1-14, 9:35-3, Titus 2:13, Rom 9:5, II Pet 1:1,
Col 2:9, Heb 1:8-10, Rev 1:8,18, Is 7:14, 45:21-22 Mic 5:2, Matt 1:23

The Spirit is God
John 16:13, Heb 9:14, Acts 5:3-4, II Cor 3:17, John 15:26

Who raised Jesus from the dead:
Father Rom 6:4, Acts 3:26, I Thes 1:10
Son John 2:19-21, 10:17-18
Spirit Rom 8:11
God Heb 13:20, Acts 13:30, 17:31

Who is God?
Father Eph 4:6
Son Tit 2:13, John 1:1, 20:28, 9:35-37
Spirit Gen 1:2, Ps 104:30
God Gen 1:1, Heb 11:3

Who saves man?
Father 1 Pet 1:3
Son John 5:21, 4:14
Spirit John 3:6, Tit 3:5
God 1 John 3:9

Who justifies man?
Father Jer 23:6, II Cor 5:19
Son Rom 5:9, 10:4, II Cor 5:19,21
Spirit I Cor 6:11, Gal 5:5
God Rom 4:6, 9:33

Who sanctifies man?
Father Jude 1
Son Tit 2:14
Spirit I Pet 1:2
God Ex 31:13
Persons of God do: Of the Father, by the Son, through the Spirit 1 Cor:8:6, John 15:26



posted on Aug, 5 2014 @ 01:51 AM
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a reply to: orangetom1999

We are told to do this to note which things are of God or which things are of this world and the god of this world. Including the version of the Word.
There is no literal "god of this world".
That was a metaphorical device used by Paul to refer to the outdated ideas of God's nature, from before Jesus came to give us better information on the subject.
Maybe I might want to judge people based on if they believe in an evil god who rules the world.
Where would that put you?
You can judge me for reading the NIV, but I might want to judge you for being deluded into thinking that God cannot oversee a modern version being made, that actually fits today's language.

Oh...goodness..no. For starters...I try to look at things through the prism of Truth..not of truth. Memorizing ...goodness me. Memorizing...Wow!!
You have a lot of beliefs that no one could possibly arrive at on their own, which just happen to be available in the different cults, so I assume that you are accepting the traditions of men to be the prism that you see everything through, that it has to fit that tradition.

there is no such instruction for a Believer..to celebrate a birthday.
This does not indicate a power to interpret the Bible.
It is just deductive reasoning in its simplest form.
edit on 5-8-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2014 @ 01:56 AM
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Beware of the Bible translations since the King James Version. These false texts have taken out scriptural truths. There is a lot of information about this on the internet, so no need repeating it all here. Here's a good starting place: www.bibleprobe.com...

People who dismiss the KJV Bible version have no clue as to how perfect it was done, or the extremely highly qualified and numerous scholars used. For example, one was fluent in 15 languages, as well as a specialist in the original languages of the Bible. The only translation you can trust in English is the KJV. I do not mean the New KJV, or any other version of the KJV.



posted on Aug, 5 2014 @ 02:16 AM
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a reply to: orangetom1999

..I know what it says at the end of Hebrews...
It says, "Our brother, Timothy".

Paul is the perfect man to teach and to Hebrews though he is considered the apostle to the Gentiles. Paul would naturally know much Olde Testament. And Hebrews uses a lot of Olde Testamet references.
The original Christians were Jews, so there was no shortage of Christians with knowledge of the Old Testament.

Wow...that is not my point. My point is Jewish Christians or not..they would know more Olde Testament than those not brought up in the OLde Testament..non Jews.
They were Christians. That is accepted by all New Testament scholars.

Paul does indeed say that...but that is not the point I was making in the quote. The point known my most peoples is that a person can change their will many times as they live..or liveth..but the testament which goes into effect is the last will written...the last will and testament. I put that in their for clarity and background.
The death of the testator is what makes a will go into effect. But before one dies..one can make as many wills and testaments as one likes..changing them as one likes..the one which goes into effect is the last one when one dies. One's last will and testament. This we have from the Olde Testament unto the New Testament.
But Hebrews mentions none of that, so you are taking an analogy that the writer was making about one aspect of this new situation, after Jesus, and misapplying it to make what it is talking about mean something else.
The is no actual, literal, new covenant.
What you have in Hebrews is an old system that was according to the Law of Moses, and a new system according to the new situation of our Messiah in Heaven.

I do not get it that the Olde Testament is obsolete. From whence do you arrive at that conclusion??
That's not what I said.

We are to know the Olde Testament...as our schoolmaster. This alone does not make the Olde Testament Obsolete.
That is in the past tense, if you were looking at where it says "schoolmaster" in the New Testament. It was the schoolmaster before the gospel came.

For we are to know why ...when and where...the reasons for things to be as they are today..the very patterns of the Olde Testament unto the New Testament.
Hmm.
I would say that it makes it easier to understand the terminology and sources for analogies used in the New Testament.

I am connecting dots..into a pattern. Not quoting Greek or Greek Experts.
You are not getting past what you were already indoctrinated into by your cult.

No Pope capable of thinking would ever do this to the line of kings or the feudal power structure...by writing such an Bible..for the ordinary folk. The RCC indeed had this one figured out.
English translations were being made and it was eventually realized by the rulers that they could not stop it, so they co-opted it to turn it into a tool to support the existing power structure.



posted on Aug, 5 2014 @ 06:27 AM
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originally posted by: Jim Scott
Beware of the Bible translations since the King James Version. These false texts have taken out scriptural truths. There is a lot of information about this on the internet, so no need repeating it all here. Here's a good starting place: www.bibleprobe.com...

People who dismiss the KJV Bible version have no clue as to how perfect it was done, or the extremely highly qualified and numerous scholars used. For example, one was fluent in 15 languages, as well as a specialist in the original languages of the Bible. The only translation you can trust in English is the KJV. I do not mean the New KJV, or any other version of the KJV.


And the KJV and Bibleprobe.com shall set you free hahaha. It’s real purpose is a propaganda and hate site, anti-muslims, anti-freemasons, anti-bible unless its KJV of course, anti-u-name-it. Gimme a break, this websites been promoted on ATS for many years and seeks to stir up people. Did anyone check their domain, its operating on a proxy, now I wonder why???
edit on 5-8-2014 by chiram because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2014 @ 11:25 AM
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a reply to: Jim Scott


Wow..someone else get is as well!! Glad to see that.



The changes are quite astonishing in their entirety when one sees enough of them to form a pattern.

I found this one though it has been changed in the newer versions of the NIV because they have obviously been caught at it and what they are attempting to do.

Here is the King James version...



II Samuel 21;19

King James Bible
And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.


Now in my version of the NIV on my Franklin Electronic bible..it states that Goliath was killed. The only comment about it is found in the footnotes. If you do not bother to read the footnotes...you would not get that they are talking about the brother of Golilath.
It is because of this kind of thing that I do not read an NIV or a Septuagint version of the Bible. The Bible is in the text..not in the footnotes.

In the Newer versions of the NIV they have had to change it to what is in the KJV..that the brother of Golliath was killed. In the older versions like mine it still reads..killed Goliath. They got caught by people like Gail Riplinger and others.

In this link..you can see where the different versions have Goliath killed or the brother of Goliath killed. This is a significant change...and even if you read the footnotes ...you can become confused. Not so with a KJV.

Here is the link where you can follow the changes in this passage.

biblehub.com...




The NIV is not as clear or offers more understanding as it is often advertised. Same with many of the other new versions of the Bible.



here is another one..from Luke.


KJV Luke 11:2-4

2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

3 Give us day by day our daily bread.

4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.



Now observe the changes which have taken place when the NIV came to be..


NIV Luke 11:2-4

Father,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.

3
Give us each day our daily bread.

4
Forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.[c]
And lead us not into temptation.[d]’


Missing .. which art in heaven
Missing..Thy will be done as in heaven, so in earth
Missing...but deliver us from evil.

This is just a small section of the changes numbering in the thousands in different Bible versions ..in the newer versions since the KJV.

I can do this with many passages from the NIV..now that I have learned more from Gail Riplinger's book ..New Age Bible Versions...than with any other writers on this topic. I can now understand why Gail Riplinger has caught so much flack from the Bible writers and commentators as well as publishing houses. Gail has done a lot ot open my eyes as well as the eyes of many out here concerning the changes in the Bible versions which ordinarily most people would never have a clue has gone on ..transpired and continues to go on.

The NIV..like much of politics today .is not the product advertised. All you have to do is read books like Gail Riplinger's and see the Bibles..side by side. I did not just read Gail's book..but had a KJV and an NIV..side by side to check for myself.

Hope this helps some of the readers here with their thinking...and with the Truth.



By the way..another note...about Brook Foss Wescott and Fenton John Anthony Hort..or Wescott and Hort and ..their qualifications for the translation which was to become the NIV version .

Wescott and Hort were members of a club called the "Ghostly Guild." A séance club..


historicist.info...

and

www.bibleready.org...


I do not believe this is a qualification for being on a translation committee or to translate the Bible.

I can say the same thing for Others on the NIV translation committee.

Much of this is unknown by many readers of the Bible in any of the versions..even by readers of the KJV Bibles. It ought not to be so. Even many of our ministers keep us ignorant of this history.

Once again..I hope this helps some of the readers out here on this issue.

This is one of the reasons..among others..that people do not understand that Jesus is God...who became fles and dwelt among us. The versions do not read the same..and this is deliberately done to bring confusion.

Thanks,
Orangetom

edit on 5-8-2014 by orangetom1999 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2014 @ 11:47 AM
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a reply to: orangetom1999

In the Newer versions of the NIV they have had to change it to what is in the KJV..that the brother of Golliath was killed. In the older versions like mine it still reads..killed Goliath.
It says so in the original NIV edition because it is not in the Hebrew or the LXX texts.
The KJV probably had it in the translation as a holdover from the Vulgate where they added commentaries into the Latin text until they didn't know the original from the comments of earlier scribes.
How you feel that corrupted versions are somehow superior is beyond me.



posted on Aug, 5 2014 @ 12:42 PM
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jmdewey60,

I've not yet had time to reply to your posts above as priorities are about here.

I just want to clarify about "Probably???"

Verses putting different verses side by side for demonstration and observation.

Must make haste now.

Will reply more later when time constraints allow.

Thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom



posted on Aug, 5 2014 @ 02:09 PM
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a reply to: orangetom1999

Verses putting different verses side by side for demonstration and observation.
It isn't a matter of "side by side" with what I was talking about in John 1, but that it is a series of uses of the word, logos.
What I was saying was "probably" the case is that in each instance of "logos", the writer was making use of the different things that the word can mean, according to how it was understood in that culture from which he was writing.
It uses logos three times in the first section of the chapter, in verse 1.
Then it does not come up again until a later section, in verse 14.
What I was getting at is that by then, it probably was used to be understood differently than it was in the beginning of the chapter.
For people not committed to a particular cult interpretation, this bit of text, Kai ho Logos sarx egeneto, is problematic.
Here is an example that might shed some light onto the reality that there exist various interpretations of it.

. . . the question of when the author of this Gospel believed the incarnation had taken place.

Scholars as different as Reginald Fuller, Charles Talbert and Frances Watson have all suggested that, whereas the classic canonical reading understands the decisive moment to be Jesus’ conception, in the context of the Gospel of John, it is more natural to understand the decisive moment to have been at Jesus’ baptism.

This was a common interpretation among early Christians (although rejected by developing orthodoxy, it was maintained in the Jewish-Christian Pseudo-Clementine literature, which regularly uses Johannine language in reference to Jesus). But more importantly than that, in the context of Jewish and developing Christian thought in the time when this Gospel was written, concepts like Word, Wisdom and Spirit were not clearly distinguished, and so many readers would have found “the Word became flesh” (John 1:14) a natural equivalent to what we are told slightly later, namely that the Spirit descended and remained on him (John 1:32).
www.patheos.com...

edit on 5-8-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2014 @ 02:32 PM
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a reply to: jmdewey60


I was going to go through your post/posts one item at a time as I am normally want to do but instead to carry this out for brevity and for the other readers to be able to see, hear, and understand something beyond the flesh...beyond what we see ordinarily with physical eyes we are blessed to have....but the eyes of the spirit.

here from one of your posts is a good starting point.

Mind you now...you and the readers out here...this knowledge does not make me better than any others out here...only different. And God's people are to be different..from the rest of the world...not to take on the appearance and traditions of the rest of the world.

Here is what I posted and how you replied.



Oh...goodness..no. For starters...I try to look at things through the prism of Truth..not of truth. Memorizing ...goodness me. Memorizing...Wow!!




You have a lot of beliefs that no one could possibly arrive at on their own, which just happen to be available in the different cults, so I assume that you are accepting the traditions of men to be the prism that you see everything through, that it has to fit that tradition.


Ok...I'll go with that one. Fine no problem. Now ...let us tie in the above quote of yours with this one here.


There is no literal "god of this world".
That was a metaphorical device used by Paul to refer to the outdated ideas of God's nature, from before Jesus came to give us better information on the subject.


Now watch closely how this works in every day life and thinking ..once one knows how to see, hear, and understand.

We have In circulation today ...a copper nickel 50 cent piece and also, when you can find them, a copper nickel Susan B. Anthony one dollar coin. Both of them have on them "In God We Trust."

We give up 50 cents of our labor to get the half dollar..and one dollar of our labor to get the Susan B. Anthony coin.

The Susan B. Anthony dollar coin is about two thirds the size and weight of the 50 cent piece and claims to be worth twice as much.



Now my Bible states in Deuteronomy 25:13-15 that....


13 Thou shalt not have in thy bag divers weights, a great and a small.

14 Thou shalt not have in thine house divers measures, a great and a small.

15 But thou shalt have a perfect and just weight, a perfect and just measure shalt thou have: that thy days may be lengthened in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.


Now it is obvious by observsation..that we now have in force here a system of "Unjust weights and measures" as the Susan B. Anthony Dollar is only about two thirds the size and weight of the fifty cent piece yet claims to be worth twice as much.

And the coins say on them "In God We Trust." Give me the name of the god of unjust weights and measures.


Furthermore...when did the Unites States Government switch to the god of unjust weights and measures and not tell anyone they had so done this thing...this abomination before the God of the Bible.'

This is exactly the same pattern of operation the Hebrews had done when they brought the woman caught in adultery before Jesus ..caught in the very act..and wanted judgment. They were not following the Law of Moses or they would have brought also the man...they brought only the woman. It is obvious to the observant ..that they were not following the Law of Moses and were disobedient. They had also ..like our own government..switched gods and told no one they had so done.

This jmdewey60..is what one learns to spot when one knows the Good News and God's Word...

I do not need to be going back and forth here with you or others ..doing this pubescent type of Unzipping...to see who has the biggest one...in such juvenile one-upmanship. But for some reason ..you think this is some kind of excellence. I don't think so..but I can do it and so carry on.

My point all along ..is what do you do with what you know...do you play one-upmanship games on the computer..or do you teach others to see, hear, and understand the world around them Through His Word and to learn how to spot counterfeits ...all around them...daily. Which of these do you carry on and about jmdewey60??

You want to go down this path with me..no problem. But it is something for academics..who like to banter this nonsense about in classrooms to overly emotional people..who cannot get past their emotions and instant gratification beliefs sufficient to see what is going on in the world around them..the counterfeits...my passages...verses your passages.

I do not see you taking the Bible teaching any further than this one-upmanship jmdewey60.

Now that I have spoken thus..I hope that some of the readers out here can also so see, hear , and understand of what I am speaking.

For you see jmdewey60..for over twenty years now...I have known the name of the god of the United States Government and it is not the product advertised...just like the political parties...just like most of modern education..and just like most of the modern versions of the Bible.

For I know the name of this god...by name. Do You???? He is the Counterfeiter, the liar, the deceiver also known as the god of this world....and I know this by the system of "Unjust weights and measures" that our own government has put off on us.

Are you going to tell me that this system we see around us, particularly in coinage, is metaphor...not real..when compared to what is in the Word???

And I can take this much much further...jmdewey60.

This is not just an academic exercise..but real..and produces real fruit..the fruit of chaos...to those who know it's history.

One of the things I have learned by way of this Bible understanding is how to spot counterfeits...also how many of the Occult Religions work..and as a side result of this Occult understanding...came knowledges of the Talmud and the Kabbalah.

The word Occult means ..hidden, concealed..even esoteric and known only to a chosen few.

It becomes obvious to the thinking person that this false coinage system was foisted off on the American people in an occult manner..concealed and even known only by a chosen few. But once one is shown and taught ..and understands the word...it becomes obvious. It comes into the Light.

For you see jmdewey60...I am not an Ishmaelite..I am after Isaac and his seed.

And these counterfeits are after Ishmael and the counterfeiter.

For these things of which I speak are of the god of this world...and I know this because they are certainly not after the God of the Bible.

That is how I know that our own government has switched gods and told no one they have done this. Just as did the Hebrew leadership so long ago. Not changed. Nothing new under the sun.



This has been a bit long..but it is important to those who can see, hear, and understand what is around them and the part Gods word plays in our understanding ..our edification, our becoming wise to what we see around us.
This is real..and produces real fruit.

This knowledge is far more than just bantering passages back and forth. It is real..and produces real fruit..the fruit of the counterfeiter or the Fruit and Blessings promised to us by God.

In His Holy Name,
Orangetom


edit on 5-8-2014 by orangetom1999 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2014 @ 02:57 PM
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a reply to: orangetom1999

And the coins say on them "In God We Trust." Give me the name of the god of unjust weights and measures.
So because you see the word, "God", on a coin that you think is not worth, melted down, the equal of its face value, you think that is proof that there is a literal evil god who rules the world?

And because I don't have the same thought when I look at a similar coin, then that is proof that I am not "spiritual", and you are?

Why do you even bother reading the Bible when you think that God just gives you telepathically everything you need to know?

This is real..

edit on 5-8-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2014 @ 03:03 PM
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originally posted by: orangetom1999

This is one of the reasons..among others..that people do not understand that Jesus is God...who became fles and dwelt among us. The versions do not read the same..and this is deliberately done to bring confusion.
Thanks,
Orangetom


This is false conjuncture and one of the many reasons that "arguing" about the scriptures is futile.

The fact is NONE can understand who Yahoshua was "through" the bible because ahtt "method" is based on a faulty premise.The scriptures are a "testimony that testify of Yahoshua (Yahweh IS salvation /deliverance) and that's it.It is a "testimony/witness" not the "source" of truth.The evidence is abundant by the minutia vivasectioning of the words to pervert into a personal agenda…the doctrines of men.Yahoshua experienced the same thing when he said to the Jewish leaders...

You search the scriptures carefully because you think that in them you have life. Yet they testify about me. But you are not willing to come to me to have life."

Yahoshua clearly stated in the testimony the ONLY way to know who he was.

He asked His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is? ”And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; others, Elijah; still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”“But you,” He asked them, “who do you say that I am? ”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the christ, the Son of the living God! ”
And Yahoshua responded, “Simon son of Jonah, you are blessed because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in your heavens."

The scriptures are only a witness that testifies, the only way to "hear" who Yahoshua is.. is if the Father reveals it…not the multiple of perverted doctrines men interpretations of their "sacred bible".Some people believe he was a "good" man elevated to "Godhood" others believe he IS the creator God and on and on….yet none of them are truth the only way to "know is if the Father reveals it to you" and the scriptures testify he only revealed it to the apostles…

The council of Nicea "revealed" that he was one of the 3 "persons" of the Godhead" trinity and billions have believed that and every variation sense yet the testimony never mentions that erroneous fact.The fact is the creator God ONLY revealed it to the apostles.They were the ONLY ones that "knew" who Yahoshua was and still are the only ones.Billions believed(and still do) they "talk" to Jesus daily and "know him" ..and they do…the "image" of the man Jesus they believe in that is only revealed "by their mind".It is NOT Yahoshua.

It has no bearing on the Truth" which version of the "bible" is the most accurate.The bible is formulated into the doctrines of man in the same fashion as the Talmud .It doesn't matter what the words "were" they are made into the agenda someone wants to believe.That has been proven all through history of a multitude of conflicting "interpretations" of the same words!!The fact is a man only believes what they "want"(will) to believe and what they believe is who they are but that has NOTHING to do with truth.

The creator God is not so imbecilic that they have made it a "pre-requisite" to "believe" doctrines of men to "know" the truth.The Truth can ONLY be revealed by the source of Truth an it comes by no method especially of ANY religion(belief) thet greatest lies of all.Billions of people through history have "coveted" their false beliefs and that "belief" has caused the majority of all strife of history in ALL ages.Religion is mankind's nature and disease.Everyone is infected with it and the creator God is using it as the cure.

It was revealed to John to "Let the one who does what is evil continue to do what is evil. Let the filthy person continue to be filthy. Let the righteous person continue to do what is right. And let the holy person continue to be holy".

There is NOTHING a person(or anyone else) can do to change their nature (name).They will continue to be "who and what" they are until the creator God "changes(repents) them .However that repentance will NOT be by believing an extrapolated religious method from a book by not knowing it's purpose.I am positive those that "believe" they "know " what "the books" mean will continue to defend their false belief and there will be an endless amount of people to argue with.That is mans nature and disease.



posted on Aug, 6 2014 @ 12:26 PM
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a reply to: jmdewey60

Wow!! jmdewey60!!!


So because you see the word, "God", on a coin that you think is not worth, melted down, the equal of its face value, you think that is proof that there is a literal evil god who rules the world?



Errrrrr....because "all" the world is using phony fiat token coinage today. The one nation which tried to institute a system of real gold coinage was overthrown by Western Governments sponsoring a civil war to overthrow such an government which was going to institute real gold coinage because they had amassed a lot of gold over the years...Libya.

All the world is on fiat token coinage.

I have a publication in my files from the US Treasury telling back then..some 20 years ago how to arrange your cash drawer or cash register to accommodate the then new Susan B. Anthony dollar.

What they also declared in this publication was that back then they got a Eisenhower dollar for 8 cents , a paper dollar for 2 cents and the Susan B. Anthony dollar for 3 cents.

What this means jmdewey60 is that if back then they could get a dollar bill for 2 cents they could also get a 100 dollar bill for 2 cents as there is no more paper or ink on the 100 than the 1 dollar bill.

This also meant to me that they never intended to balance the budget..For if a government could get a 100 dollar bill for 2 cents that makes it a 500,000 percent mark up as they give you no gold or silver for it . There is no way a government making 500,000 percent profit on a 100 dollar bill could possibly be interested in balancing a budget.

This has proven over 20 plus years to be correct.

What this means to those versed in it is that government can outspend the people any time they want by money creation and that the people are actually competitors in the marketplace against government. And therefore the laws are for the purpose of keeping people from outspending the government in the only marketplace in existence out here.

We are competitors against a government which can borrow or print all the monies it wants.

And all the world is doing this jmdewey60. Phony fiat token coinage and paper monies.

This is why the Bible teaches Just weights and measures...a just hin and a just ephah..just balances and just scales.

To keep leadership and the politicians/leaders from stealing from the people.


This is not twilight zone or metaphor....allegory..but real.

There is a Biblical reason for having a system of Just weights and measures in coinage. To prevent mischief...or whoredoms ..abominations. For if someone can pervert/whore out the money system ..they can pervert everything out here.


At one time we had this in both silver, in gold and even in copper to the pennyweight. It kept government from manipulationg the marketplace and whoever really pulled the strings behind government...from manipulating the marketplace. The great men, the rich men..the mighty men.

This is not just trading verses.but it is how the world works....not just an academic exercise...in classrooms or o a chalk board...but how things work out here.

What our coinage and fiat paper monies are worth is a carefully guarded secret against most Americans. But it can be found if one does research. This is never taught in schools..and also another reason the Bible is not desired amongst out young people and in public schools...even one young person knowing this is to many and or to much. That they might teach other young people this pattern. That must needs never happen.

I can do this with other things around us ..not just with money...and just weights and measures..but with other things.
And many of these things also show and demonstrate that the counterfeiter, liar,, and god of this world is at work around us daily. That the product is not as advertised.


There are to my limited knowledge only a handful of ministers in this nation who even teach this knowledge...how to spot counterfeits around us...how the world works...how the god of this world works...verses the instructions from God in His Word. This knowledge is sometimes called "The Ever War."


So are we continuing to trade my verses versus your verses??? or can you show how the Bible effects us out here daily for our use and knowledge??

And this is true with the Son as well as with the Father...for they are one...as the Word is one.

Again ..thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom



posted on Aug, 6 2014 @ 12:40 PM
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a reply to: Rex282

Good grief Rex282!! You were doing fine until this point...


It has no bearing on the Truth" which version of the "bible" is the most accurate.The bible is formulated into the doctrines of man in the same fashion as the Talmud


I think this should read.."The Bible is formulated into the doctrines of God....not of man.

Also ..to my limited knowledge...neither Jesus nor any of the prophets taught from the Talmud. The Talmud, even before it became written down into a system, is an abomination to God. It is a system of rules which allows one to get around the rules...and without many, not trained in the Talmud, knowing it is happening. The Talmud is a dual system of confusion. Rule keeping.

Lots of people out here are Talmudic...dual systems in operation but never identified ..so that most do not know or see it is happening around them. This is of the counterfeiter...the god of this world.


Thanks,
Orangetom


edit on 6-8-2014 by orangetom1999 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2014 @ 01:54 PM
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a reply to: orangetom1999

There is a Biblical reason for having a system of Just weights and measures in coinage.
That means if you pay for a pound of flour, you get a pound, not 15 ounces with a scale that says a pound.
Kings use gold for exchange and common people use fiat money.
I don't think there is a Bible verse on coinage.

There are to my limited knowledge only a handful of ministers in this nation who even teach this knowledge...
Since that is a subject for conspiracy theory groups, rather that a normal church service.
A lot of people don't like mixing religion and politics.

So are we continuing to trade my verses versus your verses??? or can you show how the Bible effects us out here daily for our use and knowledge??
So have you asked your employer to start paying you in grain and chickens?
In practical terms, you can take your fiat money and buy real money, but I doubt that you would want to start paying face value with gold and silver coins.
I got a 1889 silver dollar for my birthday, but it is not going to ease my conscience to buy something for a dollar with it.

There are practical applications to what I discuss concerning Bible verses, such as Jesus not being God, when he was here on earth as a person like us.
If you think Jesus was God, then you have to believe that Jesus was never tempted because it was impossible for him to ever sin.
Then that forces one to look for another reason why Jesus died, coming up, often, with a theory that being God, Jesus had magic blood that could "pay" for sins, so we never have to worry about sinning because they are paid for in advance.
And we have no example of a human being sinless because he only "put on" humanity, like we might put on a suite of clothes.
The practical application according to the scripture, as properly interpreted, is that we can, through the power of God, be free from committing sin.
Not only "can" we, but we must!

edit on 6-8-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



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