Bergdahl could get 350k tax free, if cleard by Army

a reply to: Krazysh0t

The UCMJ also allows double jeopardy.

a reply to: Xcathdra

And? What does that have to do with what we are discussing? He hasn't even had one trial yet, let alone two or three.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

So Major Hassan was considered innocent as well. La-di-dah. Tell that to those who survived at Fort Hood.

I have my opinion on the matter. Sorry, my heart isn't "bleeding" for this jerk.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Xcathdra

And? What does that have to do with what we are discussing? He hasn't even had one trial yet, let alone two or three.

I am pointing out the differences with the UCMJ and civilian law and how it can affect this debate. I don't think a lot of people understand how military prosecutions work and what's involved.

Secondly there is no need to get pissy about it either.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Sorry I don't mean to get pissy. I just get annoyed when people start presuming guilt for someone involved in high profile criminal cases. It's very un-American, not to mention it makes the jurors' jobs harder to do since it can be hard to keep outside bias out of your decision making process alone, let alone with the rest of the country deciding the man's guilt for you.

But I'm glad you brought up that UCMJ and civilian trials can be different, here is a source saying that the deck is usually stacked HIGH against the soldier getting a court martial.

COURT MARTIAL

As we note on our home page, at a court martial everyone assumes the defendant is guilty. You have probably heard that someone accused of a crime is innocent until proven guilty. That’s only true in a strictly legal sense. But in terms of how people really think, once you’re accused of committing a crime, you can forget about the presumption of innocence. At a court martial the judge, the jury, the prosecutors, the commanders, the members of the defendant’s unit – everyone thinks the defendant did it, or else he wouldn’t be sitting there. It takes an aggressive, experienced military court martial attorney to overcome all of that.

From the beginning of the case, the court martial defendant faces huge disadvantages. The government has unlimited resources at a court martial, but the appointed defense counsel’s office receives very little funding. The government will have at least two prosecutors at a court martial, while the defendant is typically entitled to have only one appointed attorney. The prosecution has an entire office of investigators, but the defense is entitled to none. The prosecution can afford to travel have any witness it wants to the court martial testify against the defendant, but the defense needs to get the government’s approval to fund any defense witness travel. The prosecution gets to use just about any expert witness it chooses, but the defense has to get the government’s approval to pay for any of the defense experts, and typically the government denies defense requests for specific experts. During the court martial, the defendant’s commander might pack the courtroom with members of the defendant’s unit, so that the command can send a message. If the defendant gets convicted, the appellate military courts will be very reluctant to undo the court martial results. In every sense, the odds are stacked against the court martial defendant.

The prosecution uses those long odds to intimidate the defendant into taking a deal that he shouldn’t take. The prosecutors get to choose what crimes to charge the defendant with at a court martial, and they’re usually creative about it. This usually means that they will take an “everything but the kitchen sink” approach and charge the defendant with more crimes than they can hope to prove if the defendant chooses to fight the court martial. Many times, the prosecution simply charges the defendant with the same conduct but under several different crimes. This makes his potential punishment at court martial much greater, and the goal is to make the court martial defendant afraid of getting destroyed if he fights – even though his chances are always better if he pleads not guilty and fights the case.

When you’re facing a court martial, you need a strong military attorney who isn’t intimidated by the long odds, the prosecutors, or the investigators. You need a military attorney who has done more trials by court martial than he can count, who knows how to talk to a jury, and who knows how to catch the government when it’s not playing fair. You need a military attorney who has been successful getting good experts appointed to help the defense. Most importantly, you need a military attorney who doesn’t owe the military anything and isn’t afraid that it will threaten his military career if he fights his hardest for the defendant.

But that is just Bergdahl's problem with the way that the military conducts its trials. Can't help that, but what I CAN help is not deciding the man's guilt before the trial takes place.

a reply to: beezzer

yes , major Hassan WAS the aledged fort hood shooter - NOW he is the convicted murderer

spot the difference - or do you need a remedial education in law ?

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: Krazysh0t

So Major Hassan was considered innocent as well. La-di-dah. Tell that to those who survived at Fort Hood.

I have my opinion on the matter. Sorry, my heart isn't "bleeding" for this jerk.

You are putting words in my mouth again. I never told you to sympathize with the man or cry for him. I just told you to reserve judgment until his guilt is determined. Why do you keep pretending like I'm asking you to go out and start petitioning people for his release or whatever? Is it really THAT hard to have a neutral stance on the man's guilt for a while? With a neutral stance you are leaving your mind open to the possibility that he isn't guilty and it is much easier to accept a not guilty verdict. While with your mind already made up, you make it more likely to resist a not guilty verdict and argue with the results.

In any case, do you think we should abolish the sixth amendment?

It should be a pretty simple case to prove whether or not he willing left his post. After that his capture/traitor status should have little bearing on his being AWOL and od desertion.

Had he been taken during a patrol, or even while walking to a shower trailer, he wouldn't be facing any Court Martial in the first place. The very fact that he is facing a court rather than simply an Artilce-15 hearing should tell everyone that the Army has the goods on him.

The fact that it is being dragged out and time is going by points to cronyism at work (IMO). The brass needs to find the right judge to let Bergdhal walk so the President doesn't get more egg on his face.

He will get the money. He will then either go back to his jihadi brothers in Afghanistan or he will stay in the US an condemn our country daily to anyone that will listen. Some think that makes him a hero either way. Some see it differently.

Bottom line is all the government has to prove is that he willing left his post. Anything after that is irrelevant.

Gotta go. I won't apologise for having an opinion in the matter.

As for the 6th? Stop being hyperbolic!

This is just what I was talking about before. I refuse to get the "herds" approval for providing an opinion.

Agree or disagree. I don't care.

It's my damned opinion!

originally posted by: beezzer
Gotta go. I won't apologise for having an opinion in the matter.

As for the 6th? Stop being hyperbolic!

Yet it's ok for you to be hyperbolic with the "bleeding heart" comment when all I've asked is for you to have a neutral stance on his guilt?

This is just what I was talking about before. I refuse to get the "herds" approval for providing an opinion.

The herds approval? The herd is the one trying to determine his guilt without a trial. YOU are going along with the herd.

Agree or disagree. I don't care.

It's my damned opinion!

Yes I can see that, you have no respect for the Sixth Amendment.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Its cool.. Its difficult to get tone / intent in types text. I've done the same thing..

As for presumption of innocence I agree with you on that and have stated as much.

Here is the link to the complete UCMJ -

Uniform Code of Military Justice

people forgot that in vietnam there were deserter who seek asylum in North vietnam. many of them never got punished by US goverment.

i think those vietnamese deserters just dont want to fight in illegal war and since they are forced to enlist against their will they seek safety in their enemy.

bowe bergdahl motivation to join army was patriotic but naive. the modern US army are filled with cruel and evil people, so much so that bergdahl cant stand it anymore. he got disillusioned and dont want any part of it anymore. so he in clear conscience leave the post and carry nothing that can be used by the enemy. This should be a positive point for bowe

He just want peace, let him return to his loving parents and live peacefully

a reply to: Xcathdra

Yea, I went through these same conversations during the Casey Anthony and George Zimmerman trials (then again after Zimmerman was acquitted and the prosecution and its supporters kept trying to push the issue). So many people like to just read the paper or the news and then decide the guilt of someone on trial, but never realize that they don't have all the facts of the trial. This is a HUGE problem in America because if you happen to end up on the wrong side of a highly publicized trial, it can RUIN your life through your public image alone even if you end up being found not guilty.

originally posted by: milomilo
people forgot that in vietnam there were deserter who seek asylum in North vietnam. many of them never got punished by US goverment.

i think those vietnamese deserters just dont want to fight in illegal war and since they are forced to enlist against their will they seek safety in their enemy.

First, source or it didn't happen.

bowe bergdahl motivation to join army was patriotic but naive. the modern US army are filled with cruel and evil people, so much so that bergdahl cant stand it anymore. he got disillusioned and dont want any part of it anymore. so he in clear conscience leave the post and carry nothing that can be used by the enemy. This should be a positive point for bowe

You have clearly NEVER served in the military if you think that the above is true. The modern US army is filled with the same makeup of people it has always been filled with. Please don't speak for active duty service members if you've never served, you just look foolish. I'm a veteran, I served in Iraq and I know that what you just wrote is a bunch of bullcrap.

He just want peace, let him return to his loving parents and live peacefully

Desertion is still a crime under UCMJ. One of the highest ones, he definitely needs to have a trial because of the charges. I may not consider him guilty yet, but I also don't consider him not guilty or innocent either and you are doing the same disservice as beezer is by presuming innocence/guilt before the trial.

a reply to: milomilo

I have never heard of any US military / Civilian personel serving in Vietnam going to the north on their own for asylum (Jane Fonda being an exception). In actuality that mindset would run contrary to the NVA stated goals / policies. The goal was to kill any and all enemy they came across in hopes of inflicting so many casualties than the foreign military would leave Vietnam and never come back.

The same tactic was used in the French-Indo China war, resulting in France withdrawing.

Secondly as for deserters / draft dodging -

Sept. 16, 1974 | Conditional Amnesty for Vietnam Draft Dodgers and Military Deserters - President Gerald Ford 1974

As for what we think of his motives, we should see what Bergdahl states and how the investigation goes.

a reply to: milomilo

LoL - the Army is full of crazy evil people. Yea that's true. You nailed it with 100% accuracy. Congrats.

I too wish nothing but peace and rest for PVT Bergdhal. Someday may he finally find the place that allows him to be able to find both so that he can at last rest in peace.

Seriously though he is facing a Court Martial trial. That tells me three things:

1 - He willing left his post
2 - He is being charged with desertion rather than being AWOL (AWOL would be non-judicial under Art-15)
3 - The Army feels that they have enough to bring a case against him

I have seen hundreds of Article 15 proceedings for AWOL soldiers. I have only seen three go to court martial trial. It's easier to give a slap on the wrist and let the soldier walk away. As he is a soldier all the proceedings are done "in house" as are the punishments. Why go through the Dog and Pony show of a trial?

originally posted by: 200Plus
a reply to: milomilo

LoL - the Army is full of crazy evil people. Yea that's true. You nailed it with 100% accuracy. Congrats.

I too wish nothing but peace and rest for PVT Bergdhal. Someday may he finally find the place that allows him to be able to find both so that he can at last rest in peace.

Seriously though he is facing a Court Martial trial. That tells me three things:

1 - He willing left his post
2 - He is being charged with desertion rather than being AWOL (AWOL would be non-judicial under Art-15)
3 - The Army feels that they have enough to bring a case against him

I have seen hundreds of Article 15 proceedings for AWOL soldiers. I have only seen three go to court martial trial. It's easier to give a slap on the wrist and let the soldier walk away. As he is a soldier all the proceedings are done "in house" as are the punishments. Why go through the Dog and Pony show of a trial?

Would you stayed with a group of soldiers who everyday say and do horrible things to the afghani civilians ? i'm sure mr bergdahl just cannot take it anymore and his conscience is clean. The army should give this guy a break , How much more would you add to a guy who was tormented by his teammate's behaviour and endure years of captivity ?

If there is a punishment, it should be the soldiers in bergdahl group that should be investigated and punished for trying to kill the afghan boy by ramming his truck over him.

originally posted by: milomilo
i dont see why american people so riled up with this poor soldier's alleged behaviour.

You just LUV him because he went and hung out with criminal Muslims for five years and that seems to be where your sympathies lie.

The truth of the matter ...

1 - He signed a contract.
2 - He failed to uphold his contract.
3 - He walked off the job so his 'back pay' should be withheld until after trial.
4 - He walked right into the arms of Americas enemies.
5 - He was willfully hanging out with the Haqqani Network. They are NOT the Taliban, but are associated with them. They are more like Muslim Mafia.

Haqqani Network Information

They also receive funds from extortion, kidnappings and smuggling operations throughout eastern Afghanistan.[11] In an interview a former Haqqani commander called the extortion "the most important source of funding for the Haqqanis."[53] According to a tribal elder in Paktia, "Haqqani's people ask for money from contractors working on road construction. They are asking money or goods from shopkeepers… District elders and contractors are paying money to Afghan workers, but sometimes half of the money will go to Haqqani's people.

This group isn't exactly a spiritual one. So any claims by you that he had some kind of enlightenment is dead wrong. This group wants Sharia, which is very, very bad ... especially for women. The group is mafia like in it's dealings ... shakedowns of governments and people and contractors. It uses extortion and kidnapping. It steals money from actual workers and uses those funds for deadly nefarious purposes.

These are the people that Bergdahl willingly broke his contract for. They are NOT good people.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: milomilo
i dont see why american people so riled up with this poor soldier's alleged behaviour.

You just LUV him because he went and hung out with criminal Muslims for five years and that seems to be where your sympathies lie.

The truth of the matter ...

1 - He signed a contract.
2 - He failed to uphold his contract.
3 - He walked off the job so his 'back pay' should be withheld until after trial.
4 - He walked right into the arms of Americas enemies.
5 - He was willfully hanging out with the Haqqani Network. They are NOT the Taliban, but are associated with them. They are more like Muslim Mafia.

Haqqani Network Information

They also receive funds from extortion, kidnappings and smuggling operations throughout eastern Afghanistan.[11] In an interview a former Haqqani commander called the extortion "the most important source of funding for the Haqqanis."[53] According to a tribal elder in Paktia, "Haqqani's people ask for money from contractors working on road construction. They are asking money or goods from shopkeepers… District elders and contractors are paying money to Afghan workers, but sometimes half of the money will go to Haqqani's people.

This group isn't exactly a spiritual one. So any claims by you that he had some kind of enlightenment is dead wrong. This group wants Sharia, which is very, very bad ... especially for women. The group is mafia like in it's dealings ... shakedowns of governments and people and contractors. It uses extortion and kidnapping. It steals money from actual workers and uses those funds for deadly nefarious purposes.

These are the people that Bergdahl willingly broke his contract for. They are NOT good people.

why would you call Afghani freedom fighters criminal ? because the real criminal is the USA illegaly invading afghanistan and killing it's people without reason.. the SUN dont rotate on america you know.. stop thinking that america have the rights to kill everyone else on earth. There's no worse criminal nation on earth than america , and you call these holy warriors a mafia ? you knew who bought their drugs ? it's the CIA and americans .. just like Vietnam

originally posted by: milomilo
why would you call Afghani freedom fighters criminal ?

Because that's what they are. Mafia type criminals.
That info comes directly from their victims. MUSLIM victims.
You didn't even read the information.

Haqqani Network Information

They also receive funds from extortion, kidnappings and smuggling operations throughout eastern Afghanistan.[11] In an interview a former Haqqani commander called the extortion "the most important source of funding for the Haqqanis."[53] According to a tribal elder in Paktia, "Haqqani's people ask for money from contractors working on road construction. They are asking money or goods from shopkeepers… District elders and contractors are paying money to Afghan workers, but sometimes half of the money will go to Haqqani's people.