Libertarians get thrown into Other Idealogies?

Originally posted by RANT
Am I misunderstanding here? Do you want a Libertarian forum for the political party?

Not really my point is that the Libertarian philosophy doesn't really fit in either forum even less than Socialists do. It could be easily argued that socialism is just a liberal being honest.....LOL

See what I mean, its not the PARTY, but philosophy that doesn't fit in either of them. This might be hard to explain to a non Libertarian but its obvious to us

Don't get me wrong. I'm behind a forum for the discussion of Libertarianism...

Which can cover the aspects of the LP Party as well as the doctrines and principles of libertarianism including CAPITALIST vs. ANTI-CAPITALIST LIBERTARIANS, MINARCHISTS vs. ANARCHISTS and LIBERTARIANISM vs. LIBERTARIAN POLITICAL PARTIES.

I'm libertarian, but I'm not Libertarian...so there's that. I'd imagine most of the anti-authority members of ATS (about all of them) are libertarian as well. Even the Bavarian Illuminati were libertarian. So again I can't help but see how a libertarianism forum wouldn't be either superfolous or co-opted as a party forum for the LP (leaving other major parties out in the cold) but if we're going to do it, it should be understood as ideology based and not owned by Badnarik backers.

See where I'm coming from?

Originally posted by RANT
Which can cover the aspects of the LP Party as well as the doctrines and principles of libertarianism including CAPITALIST vs. ANTI-CAPITALIST LIBERTARIANS, MINARCHISTS vs. ANARCHISTS and LIBERTARIANISM vs. LIBERTARIAN POLITICAL PARTIES.
See where I'm coming from?

Thats what I am talking about

As an Ideology its is hard to place most of us in either conservative or liberal and there are big differences even among ourselves, from those who would just like the Government to get off our backs to those that lean heavily toward anarchy.

Yes we could argue in the conservative or liberal forums (and will) but how conservative is a man that believes in gay marriage, doesn't believe in drug laws, etc?

How liberal is a man that doesn't believe in gun laws, welfare or hell not even in IDs?

Besides honestly how many people don't look at liberal as code for Democrat and conservative for Republican?

We had posted at the same time Amuk so you had answered the question. Didn't want to sound like I wasn't listening, just typing over you.

Sounds good. You're right on the existing labels and I do hope this new forum can do alot to get past that. We're entering an age of Liberal Republicans and Conservative Democrats and who knows what else to come?

Not so sure labels make sense anymore. I just really hope all the Liberal forum posts aren't Republicans bashing Democrats and Conservative forum posts aren't Democrats bashing Republicans.

Yawn.

In a rare and unprecedented move, libertarians have started a war with the socialist!

They have called for the Socialist to surrender their forum, or face utter destruction. The socialist, whom gave up their firearms to the government, are poorly armed with sticks and stones. The libertarians are armed to the teeth, and awaiting the socialist's response.

"Give it [the forum] up you communal backwards dreamers!" - said one libertarian

"There's about 50 of us, and 3 of them. They have no guns, no ammo, and little economic backing. They''d better surrender." - a libertarian general

More at 10!

Originally posted by BeingWatchedByThem
In a rare and unprecedented move, libertarians have started a war with the socialist!

They have called for the Socialist to surrender their forum, or face utter destruction.

We will fight them in the Chat rooms, we will fight them by U2Us, we will storm the forum and plant the flag of liberty in their black Marxist heart.

It's all been said, and quite well I might add, the libertarians are an ideal as well as a party. With that in mind, and the large number of those who champion the ideals of liberty here, it only seems right that libertarian-ism be included right up there with Conservative, Liberal, and Socialist.

Just like the other 3, libertarians do vary in opinions. Some of us may lean more to the conservative on one issue, and more to the liberal on another, all the while looking to maintain the freedoms that make this country great.

No one wants any of these forums to turn into clics that huddle in one corner, and spit venom into the other. Maybe I started this thread off on the wrong foot. And maybe I just had too much cough medicine today, but if there is a place to discuss the ideals of conservatives, liberals, and socialist... it only seems right that the third largest party in the states is included.

Don't make me go back on a Nyquil soaked rant about the other candidates getting left out of the debates. I've got the bottle in hand and I'll do it if I have to.

A lot of people see "anarchy" and think "crazy weirdos"

Well, they shouldn't. The same seems to be the case for socialists as well when you're speaking to Americans. There are crazy weirdoes who adhere to every type of ideology.

I should've suggested "deny righteousness" as the motto.

Why not go the full hog and have a board for every ideology. I'll cede the term "libertarian" to the liberal capitalists for an anarchism board. But if you're only to add a libertarian board, I'd hope that anarchism would be included in that. There are two schools of libertarians, the capitalists and the socialists, and both swear that the other isn't truly libertarian. But it's the anarchists (libertarian socialists) who've been using the L word longer.

Speaking as an anarchist, we're not only the true libertarians, but also the true socialists, so you'd have to include us on the socialism board as well (I'd take up arms for the socialists before the libertarians).

And maybe there should be a seperate board for Green politics as well, which spans non-US liberalism (the Liberals for Forests Party here in Australia), conservatism, socialism/social democracy and anarchism.

Issues oughta be discussed, not ideology. It might escape some people, but we do actually all live in the same reality. So I don't like this ideological segregation.

[edit on 3/12/04 by Grimnebulin]

Originally posted by phreak_of_nature How come no forum for the LP???

Isn't Libertarian essentially a conservative political ideology? Why wouldn't it fit in the conservative forum?

Skeptic, I'm afraid that neither you nor Mr. Rant understand the concept of lower-case libertarian -- a proponent of a particular philosophy of governance -- as opposed to an upper-case Libertarian, who is a member of a political party in the Unted States (I am both).

Libertarianism as a philosophy is completely different from "conservatism", "liberalism", "socialism", "fascism", or "communism", inasmuch as all of those approaches are statist in nature, i.e., they rely on the state (to one extent or another) to coerce the individual into doing their bidding.

Libertarians, on the other hand, believe in the absolute minimum of government required, not to provide state-supplied "goodies" to the citizenry in return for their freedom and property, but to ensure and maintain their individual liberties, including the liberty to be safe and secure in their beliefs and property.

Of course, the bankrupt pseudo-philosophies that are in vogue today ("liberalism" and "conservatism" in the United States) would like you to believe that they are also guardians and defenders of your liberties -- for they recognize that such is a good thing -- but they are not. Both the "liberals" and "conservatives" believe and actively seek a large and intrusive government -- the only difference is that their agendas differ.

Both "conservatives" and "liberals" want to constrain your freedoms; they just want to constrain different freedoms. Both "conservatives" and "liberals" want to take your money; they just want to use it for different schemes.

Socialists and Communists, of course, are merely more extreme and perverted statists, even more anti-freedom than the "liberals" (but not much); while Fascists are equally culpable, and even more perverted than the "conservatives" (but not much).

When you look at philosophies of governance in terms of freedom, (which is still considered a good thing by many Americans), the "liberals", "conservatives", socialists, communists, etc. are merely different sides of the same corporate fascist welfare-warfare statist coin.

Libertarians are not anarchists, either, since the very meaning of an-archist is "no laws". Libertarians do believe in laws, but only those which protect the rights of the people -- "people" being defined in this case as competent adults.

For example, libertarians believe there should be laws against -- and punishment for -- crimes like murder, assault, theft, fraud, trespass, libel, etc., because those crimes take away a person's right to his property or safety.

Libertarians believe that "crimes" which, by themselves, do not take away's others' rights to safety, life, property, etc. -- such as procuring a firearm, self-medication, prostitution, and burning a flag -- should not be crimes at all, because they do not, of themselves, injure other people. As such, there should be no laws constraining them.

i hope this has explained to your and Mr. Rant's satisfaction why libertarianism is unique among philosophies of governance; and that you will consider a forum for the only philosophy I can think of which incorporates personal freedom and responsibility as a basic tenet.

[edit on 3-12-2004 by Off_The_Street]

Originally posted by Off_The_Street Libertarians, on the other hand, believe in the absolute minimum of government required, not to provide state-supplied "goodies" to the citizenry in return for their freedom and property, but to ensure and maintain their individual liberties, including the liberty to be safe and secure in their beliefs and property.

Those are highly conservative ideals. We're trying to split the thinking, not by party lines, but by idealogical positions. So, why doesn't Libertarian discussion fit into the Conservative Forum?

Skeptic says:

"Those are highly conservative ideals. We're trying to split the thinking, not by party lines, but by idealogical positions. So, why doesn't Libertarian discussion fit into the Conservative Forum?"

Because libertarian ideals are not "conservative" ideals; or, at least, not the way that "conservative" is thought of today.

Today's "conservatives" in America are in favor of large government intervention, especially in providing tax subsidies to corporations, a very large and active (some would say imperialistic) foreign policy and a nascent police-state mentality when it comes to implementing the "War on Terrorism", a spiritual scion of the failed "War on Some Drugs".

Furthermore, "conservative" pseudo-philosophy, by its nature, envisages us "conserving" the Way Things Were Done in the Old Days, which, for many "conservatives", is a force-feeding of Judaeo-Christian mores and morals down the throats of a sometimes-unwilling citizenry.

Skeptic, understand that the "conservatives" are as anti-freedom as the "liberals" are. Admittedly, their public relations are sometimes more effective, but a philosophy that celebrates the freedom to bear arms while denying the freedom to self-medicate or procure the services of a prostitute is as hypocritical and morally bankrupt as are that other gang of thugs, the "liberals".

[edit on 3-12-2004 by Off_The_Street]

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Isn't Libertarian essentially a conservative political ideology? Why wouldn't it fit in the conservative forum?

Do modern conservative thinkers believe in medical marijuana, legalization of "forbidden" drugs, no government intervention in marriage (against banning certain types of people from marrying), right to choose, or against the PATRIOT Act?

You cannot call libertarianism (the ideology) conservative or liberal, it is neither.

The way I always like to sum it up is this... Liberals and conservatives feel they need to tell you what is best for you. Libertarians feel that you are best to decide what is right for you.

One of the "big ideas" of creating the Politics @ATS board is to create an atmosphere where party labels can be avoided, and pure ideology discussion is encouraged. If we create a "Libertarian Forum", it would be the ONLY forum devoted to a specific party... opening the door for the need to create new forums for every party... certainly a possibility for the future, but not in the early stages of this new board. A Libertarian mind-set, steeped deep in personal liberties, is closer to original conservative thinking than any current political party. Even the possibility of legalized drugs is a very conservative concept often advocated by the likes of William Buckley, Jr., as it puts responsibility on the individual, and not the state. I think we're much better off avoiding forums for political parties, and instead discussing the ideologies and positions.

"Owning the forum" (i.e., being s super-moderator) does not make you right, but it does give you the right to set up the forums as you choose.

As a (lower-case) libertarian, I will defend your right to handle your forum the way you choose, since it is a property issue; even though you're wrong from a philosophical interpretation point of view.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
One of the "big ideas" of creating the Politics @ATS board is to create an atmosphere where party labels can be avoided, and pure ideology discussion is encouraged.

Couldn't agree more.

If we create a "Libertarian Forum", it would be the ONLY forum devoted to a specific party... opening the door for the need to create new forums for every party... certainly a possibility for the future, but not in the early stages of this new board.

A Libertarian mind-set, steeped deep in personal liberties, is closer to original conservative thinking than any current political party. Even the possibility of legalized drugs is a very conservative concept often advocated by the likes of William Buckley, Jr., as it puts responsibility on the individual, and not the state.

I concur that the (little l) libertarian mind-set is ingrained in liberty. However if you are going call libertarians "very conservative", as a technical aspect. Let me correct you and mention it would be more accurate to call libertarians, "classical liberals".

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
One of the "big ideas" of creating the Politics @ATS board is to create an atmosphere where party labels can be avoided, and pure ideology discussion is encouraged.

I agree with this but as we have pointed out Libertarian philosophy does not fit into the conservative view we believe in Gay marriage, plural marriages, no drug laws, legal prostitution, and a host of issues that would make a conservative gag. Ask TC if we are consertive....LOL

If we create a "Libertarian Forum", it would be the ONLY forum devoted to a specific party... opening the door for the need to create new forums for every party... certainly a possibility for the future, but not in the early stages of this new board.

Not really, most if not all would agree that conservative is just a code word for Republicans and Liberal is just code for Democrats.

A Libertarian mind-set, steeped deep in personal liberties, is closer to original conservative thinking than any current political party. Even the possibility of legalized drugs is a very conservative concept often advocated by the likes of William Buckley, Jr., as it puts responsibility on the individual, and not the state.

I cant argue with this I agree 100%.....BUT the word conservative has been high-jacked by the corporate welfare, religious right, Patriot Act, Imperialistic etc; group. We are, as mentioned before, a mix of CLASSIC CONSERVATIVE and CLASSIC LIBERAL.

I think we're much better off avoiding forums for political parties, and instead discussing the ideologies and positions.

You already have them. Ask anyone which party is Conservative and which is liberal. I can see what you are saying but disagree with your reasoning. I like the idea of a separate board though

[edit on 3-12-2004 by Amuk]

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
One of the "big ideas" of creating the Politics @ATS board is to create an atmosphere where party labels can be avoided, and pure ideology discussion is encouraged.

If we create a "Libertarian Forum", it would be the ONLY forum devoted to a specific party... opening the door for the need to create new forums for every party... certainly a possibility for the future, but not in the early stages of this new board.

he is, as always, right. ownership gives them all a lot of rights and power to do what they will. one of those is making it as best as possible. they did it.

Originally posted by Amuk I agree with this but as we have pointed out Libertarian philosophy does not fit into the conservative view we believe in Gay marriage, plural marriages, no drug laws, legal prostitution, and a host of issues that would make a conservative gag. Ask TC if we are consertive....LOL

Yes... you and I (I'm closer to Libertarian than anything), are conservative. You're confusing neo-moral-conservatism for "conservatism". Both flavors of "conservative" fit within the conservative ideology forum. If we fall victim to confusing what really is conservative like the rest of the world (it seems), we'll need to change this board's motto to "deny history". Libertarin ideology is more conservative (traditionally) than current Republicans. All those things (gay marriage, drugs, etc.) speak to personal responsibility and especially state's rights... extremely conservative concepts.