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posted on May, 20 2015 @ 08:40 PM
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In my terms above forget me saying light. By light I mean basic quanta of energy merged when 'on the loose', not inside atom.

2nd.
edit on 20-5-2015 by darkorange because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 20 2015 @ 09:01 PM
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originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: darkorange
Hi all,

I am only getting to the basics of physics. With that said, I have noticed ongoing debate on say, photon duality, is it a wave or a particle.
Problem as I see it is that if its a wave then there must be medium what is waving, with the particle it is unclear what keeps photon (energy) as such having scientist to come up with point like stuff.


There isn't any medium that is waving. We got rid of aether back in 1905. You don't need anything for it to wave in. It is sort of a pushme-pullyu.


Ok,

What do you think will be an outcome of the experiment?



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 09:09 PM
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a reply to: darkorange
besides, you can not ignore space filled with fluctuations.



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 10:07 PM
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phys.org...

i need to know it numbers i can grasp what this ( increases the production of anti-hydrogen by several orders of magnitude) means in terms of numbers, weights, mass. what does this mean? are we much nearer to a nanogram or microgram? because those are the first usable quantities for space propulsion with ICAN or AIMSTAR based engines.

The article does not state what the previous state of the art quantities were so i have no basis of comparison from which to extrapolate where this puts us now.



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 10:24 PM
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originally posted by: stormbringer1701
phys.org...

i need to know it numbers i can grasp what this ( increases the production of anti-hydrogen by several orders of magnitude) means in terms of numbers, weights, mass. what does this mean? are we much nearer to a nanogram or microgram? because those are the first usable quantities for space propulsion with ICAN or AIMSTAR based engines.

The article does not state what the previous state of the art quantities were so i have no basis of comparison from which to extrapolate where this puts us now.



Cern could produce about 1 billionth of a gram of antimatter a year. Needless to say even a thousand fold increase isn't use full for an energy source



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 10:42 PM
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originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
phys.org...

i need to know it numbers i can grasp what this ( increases the production of anti-hydrogen by several orders of magnitude) means in terms of numbers, weights, mass. what does this mean? are we much nearer to a nanogram or microgram? because those are the first usable quantities for space propulsion with ICAN or AIMSTAR based engines.

The article does not state what the previous state of the art quantities were so i have no basis of comparison from which to extrapolate where this puts us now.



Cern could produce about 1 billionth of a gram of antimatter a year. Needless to say even a thousand fold increase isn't use full for an energy source


That's a nanogram though! and that coupled with several orders of magnitude.

according to this: en.wikipedia.org...

The prefix "nano" means 1/ billionth. if true then even that can be used for propulsion to the outer bounds of the solar system.

because:

orbitalvector.com...

please see ICAN II and AIMSTAR entries.

140 nanograms for ICAN II missions and 28 micrograms for AIMSTAR missions.

Now this article says "several orders of magnitude better at low excited states of positronium." You estimated 1 bilionth of nano gram per year at CERN which is not a purpose designed built antimatter generator. several orders of magnitude would add how many zeros after that "1 billionth" figure? BTW I think your figure is low but i could be conflating positron production with anti hydrogen production. Also; the articles says they are going to investigate higher energized states of positronium WRT anti-Hydrogen production next and expect it to be much greater than the reported results at lower energized states.
edit on 20-5-2015 by stormbringer1701 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 10:51 PM
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originally posted by: darkorange
What do you think will be an outcome of the experiment?
Just find a metal box that acts as a faraday cage and try shining a flashlight inside. That's a lot easier than trying to find a positron and getting it to annihilate an electron and then trying to measure what happens. If the light leaves the flashlight and strikes the side of the faraday cage (it will) then your hypothesis is false (it is).

My lab has an environmental chamber which is a walk-in temperature and humidity controlled metal box, which blocks external electromagnetic radiation.

Lights works just fine inside the metal box.
edit on 20-5-2015 by Arbitrageur because: clarification



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 11:11 PM
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originally posted by: darkorange
What do you think will be an outcome of the experiment?


You'll get photons, of course. Photons don't require old photons or whatever. There isn't a medium as such.



posted on May, 21 2015 @ 01:09 AM
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order of magnitude: en.wikipedia.org...

1 X 10^-9th. thats a nanogram. and Several means "more than 2 but not many."

so three to maybe five orders of magnitude is what we are looking for...

they differ by a factor of 1000 or more.

does that mean 1000 nanograms?
edit on 21-5-2015 by stormbringer1701 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 21 2015 @ 01:24 AM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Danbones
*sigh*

The claim is that math is "real." That anything that math represents exists as a "thing."

A geometric point does not exist.
A geometric line does not exist.
A geometric plane does not exit.
The square root of negative one does not exit.

Math (none of them) are "real." They are tools which can be used to represent reality but they are not "real."

i.e. what is a one?


ah, thanks
pretty obvious conclusion the way you state it there



posted on May, 21 2015 @ 03:40 AM
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originally posted by: stormbringer1701
order of magnitude: en.wikipedia.org...

1 X 10^-9th. thats a nanogram. and Several means "more than 2 but not many."

so three to maybe five orders of magnitude is what we are looking for...

they differ by a factor of 1000 or more.

does that mean 1000 nanograms?

All of the antiprotons created at Fermilab’s Tevatron particle accelerator add up to only 15 nanograms. Those made at CERN amount to about 1 nanogram. At DESY in Germany, approximately 2 nanograms of positrons have been produced to date.
If all the antimatter ever made by humans were annihilated at once, the energy produced wouldn’t even be enough to boil a cup of tea. Now the longest we have been able to hold it as far as I know is 30 min before it comes in contact with something and that was at Cern. so not only is it really expensive to produce but we have a major problem containing it.

To help give you perspective Cern is capable of producing ten million antiprotons per minute.Even if we could get 100% conversion of antiprotons to antihydrogen which we can't , it would take 100 billion years to produce 1 gram of antihydrogen . Then there is the cost it would be more money than can be found on the entire planet. So unless we find a better way to make anti matter it's never will be practical for anything other than studying.
edit on 5/21/15 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 21 2015 @ 03:49 AM
link   

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
order of magnitude: en.wikipedia.org...

1 X 10^-9th. thats a nanogram. and Several means "more than 2 but not many."

so three to maybe five orders of magnitude is what we are looking for...

they differ by a factor of 1000 or more.

does that mean 1000 nanograms?

All of the antiprotons created at Fermilab’s Tevatron particle accelerator add up to only 15 nanograms. Those made at CERN amount to about 1 nanogram. At DESY in Germany, approximately 2 nanograms of positrons have been produced to date.
If all the antimatter ever made by humans were annihilated at once, the energy produced wouldn’t even be enough to boil a cup of tea. Now the longest we have been able to hold it as far as I know is 30 min before it comes in contact with something and that was at Cern.


The article that caused this discussion says they have upped the production rate possible by several orders of magnitude. (apparently that is from the nanogram base line)

That means to me that they can make the quantities necessary to do some minimal forms of antimatter involved propulsion such as antimatter catalyzed fission and antimatter catalyzed microfusion. These forms of propulsion use tiny amounts of antimatter to keep a fission or fusion reaction going. they only need a few nanograms to do either mission. and thats to the outer solar system and to the 10K AU point.

it may not be enough to boil a cup of coffee but it is enough to kickstart fission and fusion that can plasmify that coffee etc.



posted on May, 21 2015 @ 03:56 AM
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originally posted by: stormbringer1701

it may not be enough to boil a cup of coffee but it is enough to kickstart fission and fusion that can plasmify that coffee etc.


Heck, all you need's a perfect neutron reflector, and the stars are yours!



posted on May, 21 2015 @ 04:05 AM
link   

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
order of magnitude: en.wikipedia.org...

1 X 10^-9th. thats a nanogram. and Several means "more than 2 but not many."

so three to maybe five orders of magnitude is what we are looking for...

they differ by a factor of 1000 or more.

does that mean 1000 nanograms?

All of the antiprotons created at Fermilab’s Tevatron particle accelerator add up to only 15 nanograms. Those made at CERN amount to about 1 nanogram. At DESY in Germany, approximately 2 nanograms of positrons have been produced to date.
If all the antimatter ever made by humans were annihilated at once, the energy produced wouldn’t even be enough to boil a cup of tea. Now the longest we have been able to hold it as far as I know is 30 min before it comes in contact with something and that was at Cern.


The article that caused this discussion says they have upped the production rate possible by several orders of magnitude. (apparently that is from the nanogram base line)

That means to me that they can make the quantities necessary to do some minimal forms of antimatter involved propulsion such as antimatter catalyzed fission and antimatter catalyzed microfusion. These forms of propulsion use tiny amounts of antimatter to keep a fission or fusion reaction going. they only need a few nanograms to do either mission. and thats to the outer solar system and to the 10K AU point.

it may not be enough to boil a cup of coffee but it is enough to kickstart fission and fusion that can plasmify that coffee etc.


No can't even power a light bulb remember were talking the energy used to create them far outweighs the energy they produce. Now the reason we can't do fusion is pressure we can't maintain the pressures needed.

So let's say we used antimatter to kick off a fusion reaction. What we would get is a neutron bomb as the pressure would be to low to hold them. If we can get and maintain the pressure we don't need anti matter we can just start a fusion reaction. So what I'm telling you is simply if we could create the conditions necessary to use anti matter to start a fusion reaction we wouldn't need the antimatter.



posted on May, 21 2015 @ 02:48 PM
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originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: darkorange
What do you think will be an outcome of the experiment?


You'll get photons, of course. Photons don't require old photons or whatever. There isn't a medium as such.


Things are much easier to understand when you dont think about them
edit on 21-5-2015 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 21 2015 @ 04:28 PM
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originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: darkorange
What do you think will be an outcome of the experiment?


You'll get photons, of course. Photons don't require old photons or whatever. There isn't a medium as such.


Things are much easier to understand when you dont think about them


I so had to give you a star for making me laugh. I might have a T shirt made .



posted on May, 21 2015 @ 04:31 PM
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originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: darkorange
What do you think will be an outcome of the experiment?


You'll get photons, of course. Photons don't require old photons or whatever. There isn't a medium as such.


Things are much easier to understand when you dont think about them


Quantum field theory is hard!

20prospect.files.wordpress.com...



posted on May, 21 2015 @ 04:44 PM
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a reply to: ImaFungi

A lot of things in life are like that. Even simple things can be hard when you think about them.

Here's a non physics example. Sinawali is the duel usage of two sticks in Filipino martial arts. You got a stick in each hand and you weave them around each other as you twirl them. If you do the drills and excercises paying close attention and thinking about every wrist angle and movement you will surely screw it up. But if you just let your mind go and just swing them around everything falls into place and the movements work. Think about it and it doesn't so much. Sometimes Hard is simple and simple is hard.

www.youtube.com...



posted on May, 21 2015 @ 06:02 PM
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originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
order of magnitude: en.wikipedia.org...

1 X 10^-9th. thats a nanogram. and Several means "more than 2 but not many."

so three to maybe five orders of magnitude is what we are looking for...

they differ by a factor of 1000 or more.

does that mean 1000 nanograms?
Did you read about the AIMSTAR and ICAN II propulsion studies at Penn State?
All of the antiprotons created at Fermilab’s Tevatron particle accelerator add up to only 15 nanograms. Those made at CERN amount to about 1 nanogram. At DESY in Germany, approximately 2 nanograms of positrons have been produced to date.
If all the antimatter ever made by humans were annihilated at once, the energy produced wouldn’t even be enough to boil a cup of tea. Now the longest we have been able to hold it as far as I know is 30 min before it comes in contact with something and that was at Cern.


The article that caused this discussion says they have upped the production rate possible by several orders of magnitude. (apparently that is from the nanogram base line)

That means to me that they can make the quantities necessary to do some minimal forms of antimatter involved propulsion such as antimatter catalyzed fission and antimatter catalyzed microfusion. These forms of propulsion use tiny amounts of antimatter to keep a fission or fusion reaction going. they only need a few nanograms to do either mission. and thats to the outer solar system and to the 10K AU point.

it may not be enough to boil a cup of coffee but it is enough to kickstart fission and fusion that can plasmify that coffee etc.


No can't even power a light bulb remember were talking the energy used to create them far outweighs the energy they produce. Now the reason we can't do fusion is pressure we can't maintain the pressures needed.

So let's say we used antimatter to kick off a fusion reaction. What we would get is a neutron bomb as the pressure would be to low to hold them. If we can get and maintain the pressure we don't need anti matter we can just start a fusion reaction. So what I'm telling you is simply if we could create the conditions necessary to use anti matter to start a fusion reaction we wouldn't need the antimatter.
Did you read about the AIMSTAR and ICAN II propulsion studies at Penn State?
edit on 21-5-2015 by stormbringer1701 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 21 2015 @ 06:14 PM
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wiki articles. somewhat dated. but en.wikipedia.org...




AIMStar was a proposed antimatter-catalyzed nuclear pulse propulsion craft that uses clouds of antiprotons to initiate fission and fusion within fuel pellets. A magnetic nozzle derives motive force from the resulting explosions. The design was studied during the 1990s by Penn State University.




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