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posted on May, 17 2015 @ 09:34 PM

originally posted by: Phage
Show me a geometric point. No dimension.
Show me a geometric line. One dimension
Show me a geometric plane. Two dimensions.

What is really funny about this, is that the physicists in this thread, and depressingly in the world, believe that certain matter exists, even the electron, that is a 1 dimensional or no dimensional point.

I dont agree with those notions.

For my statements about the eternal nature of geometry, I was first and foremost making those statements about 3d objects; 3d object, and 3d space.

A 1d point cannot exist, because of the nature of substance, I will assume.

But I am inclined to tell you to think about a hollow sphere, whose area is continuously decreasing;

And then think about when it gets to a point that is really small, and there is some definable area of space in the sphere, depending on units of measurement, but the area of the sphere is not infinite;

So while I dont think substance can exist as a 1d particle;

I think we can intuit the essence or meaning of 1d point, by imagining that we trapped an area of space, that was not moving, and it is an area of nothing;

And that we continue to enclose the area more and more,

well this is approaching the idea of the planck length;

I guess I could say 1d point would be what is on the other side of the planck length?

Or divide the planck length infinitely until you cannot any more?

Are there not examples of 2d representations on this screen?

I was thinking today about how 2d can exist, I was thinking about a tv screen and how 3d images are represented, even maybe in our vision, how we see the world 2d, because we dont have eyes that are also behind and around the objects we view, and I was thinking about drawings which appear to be 3d but are drawn on 2d paper, and thus the drawings are 2d but the pencil lead is 3d atoms, etc. etc.

Anyway;

The laws of triangle, square, circle, sphere, all of geometry, are eternal truths, that would need to be self consistent to exist in any reality, in any reality in any time, composed of any something, in order for beings there to create a triangle, they would need 3 points, and 3 lines.

edit on 17-5-2015 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 17 2015 @ 09:37 PM

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: ImaFungi

This is a relevant question; Because if you are saying there does not always exist the same number of photons;

You are saying that objects that are not photons can become photons and vice versa...

It's obvious that there does not always exist the same number of photons.

Objects don't become photons under normal circumstances. Objects can emit them, though.

Where and what are photons before objects emit them?

posted on May, 17 2015 @ 09:41 PM

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: ImaFungi
So we have two different photons, traveling with/as different frequencies.

What is the meaning of a single photon traveling as a frequency?

A single ball, bobbing up and down?

Is that the closest analogy and capturer of reality?

Not at all. Photons aren't balls, they don't bob up and down. I'd have to say, it's not even close as an analogy.

Ok, then light IS NEVER PARTICLE LIKE!

And; LIGHT IS A MEDIUM OF MATTER WHICH EXISTS AT ALL POINTS OF SPACE AT ALL TIMES

Either light is separate particle balls.

Or light is a medium.

posted on May, 17 2015 @ 09:42 PM

You said geometry is real but you cannot show me the geometric constructs I delineated.

Is a point real? You yourself said it is not. Yet it is the most basic concept of geometry. Your word salad gets tiresome.

edit on 5/17/2015 by Phage because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 17 2015 @ 09:42 PM

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

I don't think it's much like a ball bobbing up and down.

If a photon is never like a ball bobbing up and down

A photon is never a particle.

False dichotomy 101!

The definition of particle is closest to = Ball like

posted on May, 17 2015 @ 09:42 PM
While I'm at it, here is in support of idea that motion is an absolute underlay of entire game.

From my school years I learned that the energy comes up in two fundamental word combinations, kinetic and potential.
Said that, thinking that energy is something that needs to be bound, form most convenient position of being.
It belongs and must be part of group where they might comfortably cuddle. There is a limit as which atom to ad. Periodic table gives us systematic possible combinations.

If we postulate for a moment that energy can not be 'in an open' , we can follow that it seeks 'save heaven', wants to assume natural bound state. Once 'escape velocity' reached, it runs, attracted to another possible bond state.

To sum up, motion is moving energy forced to move finding rest state, to become kinetic and potential as opposed to free.

Cheers

DO.

edit on 17-5-2015 by darkorange because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 17 2015 @ 09:44 PM

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: dragonridr

No first photons aren't particles and they aren't waves those are just qualities of out photon. It is both it is neither.you want to put photons into a niche they are like nothing else. And at the same time like everything else since even matter can have waves.

Just because you dont know the way reality exactly exists;

Does not mean reality does not exist exactly in a way;

It is exactly more that;

Reality exists exactly in a way;

You dont know the way in which reality exactly exists;

We must use experiment and thought to best approach a comprehension of the way in which reality exists.

Anything that ever has existed and ever will exist is comparable to geometry.

NO I'm trying to tell you your just looking at diffret aspects of a photon. It's not one or the other it's both. Depends on what we're looking for as to what we see. Reminds me of the story of the three blind men trying to describe an elephant. They argue nit realizing they are describing parts of the same thing.

No, the only meaning of the word particle is; Ball like.

If a photon is not; Ball like

It is like, not like, a particle.

posted on May, 17 2015 @ 09:48 PM

originally posted by: Phage

You said geometry is real but you cannot show me the geometric constructs I delineated.

Is a point real? You yourself said it is not. Yet it is the most basic concept of geometry. Your word salad gets tiresome.

Take a pen, and make a point on a piece of paper.

I never said a 1d point is real.

Make 3 points on a piece of paper, connect them with lines, you have made the eternal triangle.

Triangles and the concept of them, the fact that 3 points connected with lines forms the geometric shape of triangle, is true, whether humans exist or not.

If there were 3 rocks on the ground, and 3 sticks broke off of a tree and fell connecting the 3 dots, that would be a triangle. Geometry is eternal and true, and all that exists and ever exists, does so, physically in relation to the perfect laws of perfect geometry. The self consistent rule of math is contained in the geometry of space.

posted on May, 17 2015 @ 09:52 PM

Take a pen, and make a point on a piece of paper.
That is not a geometric point. That is an ink blot on a piece of paper.

I never said a 1d point is real.
That's right, you said that geometry is real. You don't even know the basics of geometry. But like physics you claim to have a knowledge beyond those who are telling you are wrong. A geometric point is not 1d, it has no dimensions.

If there were 3 rocks on the ground, and 3 sticks broke off of a tree and fell connecting the 3 dots, that would be a triangle. Geometry is eternal and true, and all that exists and ever exists, does so, physically in relation to the perfect laws of perfect geometry. The self consistent rule of math is contained in the geometry of space.
Like I said, word salad. Semantically null. And tiresome.

edit on 5/17/2015 by Phage because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 17 2015 @ 09:52 PM

originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: ImaFungi
So we have two different photons, traveling with/as different frequencies.

What is the meaning of a single photon traveling as a frequency?

A single ball, bobbing up and down?

Is that the closest analogy and capturer of reality?

Not at all. Photons aren't balls, they don't bob up and down. I'd have to say, it's not even close as an analogy.

Ok, then light IS NEVER PARTICLE LIKE!

And; LIGHT IS A MEDIUM OF MATTER WHICH EXISTS AT ALL POINTS OF SPACE AT ALL TIMES

Either light is separate particle balls.

Or light is a medium.

I somewhat agree.

'Light' can be a carrier wave and the rest of energy states are simply modulated in it. Just like sound on the radio. Simply creating more pronounced, concentrated wave patterns inside of it. There you have your electron that needs no 'power' to keep going forever as it does because it is made of light essentially?

DO.

edit on 17-5-2015 by darkorange because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 17 2015 @ 09:56 PM

Geometry is a construct created by man to explain the universe. Geometry didn't exist it is simply rules we created based on a math system we created. Do you naively think math based off the number 10 is dictated by the universe? Humans created it based off the number of fingers we have. Math is a construct a tool useful tool but a tool none the less.

posted on May, 17 2015 @ 10:01 PM

originally posted by: Phage
That is not a geometric point. That is an ink blot on a piece of paper.

That's right, you said that geometry is real. You don't even know the basics of geometry. But like physics you claim to have a knowledge beyond those who are telling you are wrong. A geometric point is not 1d, it has no dimensions.

Like I said, word salad. Semantically null. And tiresome.

I meant;

3d/4d geometry is real.

The person or people who said;

Geometry starts with a 1d point;

The concept of point requires, presupposes, dimension.

They attempted to distance their statements from reality, to describe and express the common uniter of all forms, to say, consider this abstract concept, that all that does exist, can be related to this concept of a point, which doesnt exist...yeah thats messy.

So lets start over and see what you have to say;

3d/4d geometry exists and is eternally true!

But I am also compelled to say;

2d geometry does exist in a way;

Because you would not draw 3 dots on a paper, connect them as a triangle, and call it a pyramid. In no way would you call it a pyramid; even though due to atoms of paper, and atoms of lead, it is not true 2d; it is a 2d representation of geometry.

edit on 17-5-2015 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 17 2015 @ 10:05 PM

originally posted by: dragonridr

Geometry is a construct created by man to explain the universe. Geometry didn't exist it is simply rules we created based on a math system we created. Do you naively think math based off the number 10 is dictated by the universe? Humans created it based off the number of fingers we have. Math is a construct a tool useful tool but a tool none the less.

FALSE.

The sun would be very close to being a sphere if humans existed or not.

posted on May, 17 2015 @ 10:07 PM

But it does.

After a point is a line. One dimension. Show me one.
After a line is a plane. Two dimensions. Show me one.

Geometry, like all maths, is a human construct. It is no more real than any other math. What is the square root of negative one?

posted on May, 17 2015 @ 10:08 PM

originally posted by: dragonridr
Do you naively think math based off the number 10 is dictated by the universe? Humans created it based off the number of fingers we have. Math is a construct a tool useful tool but a tool none the less.

Math exists whether humans exist or not.

When I say math exists beyond humans, I am not referring to squiggly lines, 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... I am referring to the purity of what those lines represent.

Before humans existed;

A pile of 5 apples

And a pile of 10 apples existed

forget the squiggly symbols.

(1....1 ....1 .....1 .....1 )

(1.....1 .....1....1.....1.....1.....1.....1.....1......1)

posted on May, 17 2015 @ 10:10 PM

originally posted by: Phage

After a point is a line. One dimension. Show me one.
After a line is a plane. Two dimensions. Show me one.

Geometry, like all maths, is a human construct. It is no more real than any other math. What is the square root of negative one?

Either you are joking or proudly making a fool of yourself.

infinite self ruled consistent 3d spatial manifold;

Math and geometry are the playing with relative points on that manifold, the playing requires time (4d)
edit on 17-5-2015 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 17 2015 @ 10:13 PM

Either you are joking or proudly making a fool of yourself.
Show me a geometric point.
Show me a geometric line.
Show me a geometric plane.
What's the square root of negative one?
You said geometry is real. You said math is real. Show me any of these things are real.
Or, go away.

edit on 5/17/2015 by Phage because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 17 2015 @ 10:18 PM

originally posted by: Phage

But it does.

After a point is a line. One dimension. Show me one.
After a line is a plane. Two dimensions. Show me one.

Geometry, like all maths, is a human construct. It is no more real than any other math. What is the square root of negative one?

Hence the need to not confuse a mathematical model/abstract concept with the 'reality' it represents/describes?

"Dimensionless point particle"? Useful in a model but not 'real'?

posted on May, 17 2015 @ 10:22 PM

"Dimensionless point particle"? Useful in a model but not 'real'?

Yes. There is no such thing in reality as a geometric point.
That does not mean that such a construct cannot be used to represent other aspects of reality.

A mathematical model is not "real." It is a tool that can help us understand reality.
Math is not "real". It is a tool that helps us model reality.

edit on 5/17/2015 by Phage because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 17 2015 @ 10:23 PM

originally posted by: Phage
Show me a geometric point.
Show me a geometric line.
Show me a geometric plane.
What's the square root of negative one?
You said geometry is real. You said math is real. Show me any of these things are real.
Or, go away.

Do you admit that an aspect of geometry is 3d geometry? 2d geometry?

I do not believe 1d geometry exists.

I believe 3d/4d geometry exists. And I might believe 2d geometry exists.

I can show you proof of those, in ways I have already mentioned.

Math is real, yes, math is quantity, quantity is real, yes.

Show you that math is real?

x quantity of rain + y quantity of sun light + b quantity of soil + z quantity of seeds + q quantity of time = r quantity of plant.

Reality is physical math.

That does not mean reality is squiggly lines that = 23 692060 926020692960 20962

Reality is quantity interacting.

Math is quantity interacting.

If humans didnt exist, and an apple tree existed, do you think there would be 0 apples on the tree?

Do you think the sun is more like a sphere than a triangle?

The concept of sphere and triangle, the concept of geometry, is eternal, unchangeable, and not invented by humans, but discovered.

We did not invent 1 and 1 and 1 and 1 and 1. 1 and 1 and 1 and 1 and 1 rocks in a pile existed before humans.

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