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posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 07:33 AM
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originally posted by: MagicWand67
a reply to: tsurfer2000h



It's called Denying Ignorance try it sometime.


What you call "denying ignorance" I call blatant lying. See my response to Rob for an example.


What's that supposed to mean? Are you still accusing me of lying?

Let's look at your claim. Metal particles. Your car also emits metal particles from engine and tyre wear. Does that mean it is laying chemtrails? We are talking minuscule amounts, otherwise the engines would be wearing away at a phenomenal rate.

A visible persistent contrail is around 99.99% water ice from the atmosphere. Around 0.01%, or one part in 10,000, consists of water and associated impurities from combustion. Of that 0.01%, less than 1 kilo per tonne of water (0.1%) is solid impurities (eg soot). Far far less than that will be metal particles, otherwise the engines would wear away to nothing in no time!

These "chemtrails" are purer water than bottled water that you buy at the supermarket. I think it is fair to call them "ice".

By the way, you won't get anywhere with me on the topic of grammar and spelling. I work as a copy editor.

I also have a masters degree in chemistry, so you might be on shaky ground there, too.
edit on 20-7-2014 by Rob48 because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 01:54 PM
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a reply to: MagicWand67




You are obviously the low man on the metabunk totem pole. You really shouldn't be talking about other people's ignorance.

Half the time you can't even spell your words correctly. Something most people learn to do in the 5th grade.

Have you figured out the difference between "your" and "you're" yet?


Funny I never said I was anything with metabunk, but hey thanks for being worried.


As far as spelling...What does that matter you obviously understood what I was saying...Last time I checked I wasn't getting graded on how I use words, but thanks for being concerned.


Now other than worrying about how I spell do you have anything relevant to the thread, because as I have said before I am not the topic of this thread.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 01:56 PM
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a reply to: MagicWand67




Seems more like you're in denial of your own ignorance to me.


Oh the irony in that statement.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 02:00 PM
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a reply to: Rob48




What's that supposed to mean? Are you still accusing me of lying?


Notice he has had all the time in the world to prove you are lying, or photoshopping your pics but all he wants to do is worry about another members spelling...and that just amazes me with the chemtrail believer crowd.

Make the accusations and can't back it up.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 04:14 PM
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a reply to: Rob48




What's that supposed to mean? Are you still accusing me of lying?


I don't need to accuse you of lying. I already proved it.




I also have a masters degree in chemistry, so you might be on shaky ground there, too


I don't believe you. You've already been proven to be a liar.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 04:16 PM
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a reply to: tsurfer2000h




Make the accusations and can't back it up.


I already did.

It appears you're just too ignorant to understand it.




As far as spelling...What does that matter


More proof of your ignorance.

Remember this statement you made?



It's called Denying Ignorance try it sometime.


I was just following your suggestion.

Ignorance DENIED !!!

edit on 20-7-2014 by MagicWand67 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 04:45 PM
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originally posted by: MagicWand67
a reply to: Rob48




What's that supposed to mean? Are you still accusing me of lying?


I don't need to accuse you of lying. I already proved it.




I also have a masters degree in chemistry, so you might be on shaky ground there, too


I don't believe you. You've already been proven to be a liar.


LOL, yeah, course you did, and without even making a post at all. Well done.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 05:17 PM
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a reply to: waynos

Here's that non-existent post.


originally posted by: MagicWand67
a reply to: Rob48


To scammers, hoaxers and their gullible followers, it's aluminium, barium


You mean people like the IPCC ?



Aviation and the Global Atmosphere

3.2.3.2 Metal Particles

Aircraft jet engines also directly emit metal particles. Their sources include engine erosion and the combustion of fuel containing trace metal impurities or metal particles that enter the exhaust with the fuel (Chapter 7). Metal particles-comprising elements such as Al, Ti, Cr, Fe, Ni, and Ba-are estimated to be present at the parts per billion by volume (ppbv) level at nozzle exit planes (CIAP, 1975; Fordyce and Sheibley, 1975). The corresponding concentrations of 107 to 108 particles/kg fuel (assuming 1-mm radius; see below) are much smaller than for soot. Although metals have been found as residuals in cirrus and contrail ice particles (Chen et al., 1998; Petzold et al., 1998; Twohy and Gandrud, 1998), their number and associated mass are considered too small to affect the formation or properties of more abundant volatile and soot plume aerosol particles.


Every time you claim "it's just ice". You are blatantly lying, misleading the facts and misrepresenting the truth.

It's not just ice. It's also unburnt fuel, soot, sulfur dioxide, sulfuric acid, metal particulates, lots of carbon dioxide and other exhaust fumes.



Way to go Waynos.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 05:44 PM
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a reply to: MagicWand67

Yeah, I saw that you THOUGHT that was an appropriate rebuff. You clearly don't comprehend nearly as much as you think you do.
Let's not forget the very specific accusation you made on a picture being photoshopped and "already debunked", which you've gone silent on since you were shown to actually be the blowhard that you previously just seemed to be.

Pollution is real, it's created by all means of travel and industrial activity and at all levels, but mainly on the ground. It's goons like you, the ones that are only concerned by aircraft because they might be spraying something deliberately, that are the Governments and the corporations best friends as you chase your tails while the environment suffers.

Time to grow up.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 05:52 PM
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a reply to: MagicWand67
What does that prove exactly?

Carbon dioxide is a gas. Is it present in visible contrails? No.

Sulphur dioxide is a gas. Is it present in visible contrails? No.

Soot, "other exhaust fumes" (I assume you mean NOx?) and metal particulates? Are they present in visible contrails? No for NOx, because they are gases too. Yes for the other two, at levels far below the safe levels in drinking water. Maybe 20 grams of soot per 100,000 tonnes of contrail ice. Maybe a few milligrams of metal particles.

I've said it before: collect up a pound of contrail ice crystals, melt them down and I'll drink the lot. It's far purer water than the priciest mineral water on the market.

I see you quoted from this report in the misguided belief that it supports your position: www.ipcc.ch...

If you had read on, you would see that it explains exactly what contrails are, using references that are more than half a century old.

Contrails consist of ice particles that mainly nucleate on exhaust soot and volatile plume aerosol particles. Contrail formation is caused by the increase in relative humidity (RH) that occurs in the engine plume as a result of mixing of warm and moist exhaust gases with colder and less humid ambient air (Schmidt, 1941; Appleman, 1953).


So the very report you used to try to push your rubbish totally disproves it. Nice going.

Which of the "Donate now" chemtrail sites do you run?



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 07:10 PM
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originally posted by: MagicWand67
a reply to: Rob48


To scammers, hoaxers and their gullible followers, it's aluminium, barium


You mean people like the IPCC ?





Aviation and the Global Atmosphere

3.2.3.2 Metal Particles

Aircraft jet engines also directly emit metal particles. Their sources include engine erosion and the combustion of fuel containing trace metal impurities or metal particles that enter the exhaust with the fuel (Chapter 7). Metal particles-comprising elements such as Al, Ti, Cr, Fe, Ni, and Ba-are estimated to be present at the parts per billion by volume (ppbv) level at nozzle exit planes (CIAP, 1975; Fordyce and Sheibley, 1975). The corresponding concentrations of 107 to 108 particles/kg fuel (assuming 1-mm radius; see below) are much smaller than for soot. Although metals have been found as residuals in cirrus and contrail ice particles (Chen et al., 1998; Petzold et al., 1998; Twohy and Gandrud, 1998), their number and associated mass are considered too small to affect the formation or properties of more abundant volatile and soot plume aerosol particles.


Every time you claim "it's just ice". You are blatantly lying, misleading the facts and misrepresenting the truth.

It's not just ice. It's also unburnt fuel, soot, sulfur dioxide, sulfuric acid, metal particulates, lots of carbon dioxide and other exhaust fumes.


This ex-text was in the post I'm quoting.

Aviation and the Global Atmosphere

3.2.3.2 Metal Particles

Aircraft jet engines also directly emit metal particles. Their sources include engine erosion and the combustion of fuel containing trace metal impurities or metal particles that enter the exhaust with the fuel (Chapter 7). Metal particles-comprising elements such as Al, Ti, Cr, Fe, Ni, and Ba-are estimated to be present at the parts per billion by volume (ppbv) level at nozzle exit planes (CIAP, 1975; Fordyce and Sheibley, 1975). The corresponding concentrations of 107 to 108 particles/kg fuel (assuming 1-mm radius; see below) are much smaller than for soot. Although metals have been found as residuals in cirrus and contrail ice particles (Chen et al., 1998; Petzold et al., 1998; Twohy and Gandrud, 1998), their number and associated mass are considered too small to affect the formation or properties of more abundant volatile and soot plume aerosol particles.



Did you think this was news? I searched some of the text from your IPCC quote and found this has been posted long ago. Take a look www.abovetopsecret.com...

Not a secret and no one is trying to hide it. It's just not the big deal you try to make it out to be, like in this thread you(?) posted at Metabunk www.metabunk.org...
edit on 20-7-2014 by DenyObfuscation because: make it rezn8



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 07:28 PM
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originally posted by: MagicWand67
a reply to: Rob48


To scammers, hoaxers and their gullible followers, it's aluminium, barium


You mean people like the IPCC ?



Aviation and the Global Atmosphere

3.2.3.2 Metal Particles

Aircraft jet engines also directly emit metal particles. Their sources include engine erosion and the combustion of fuel containing trace metal impurities or metal particles that enter the exhaust with the fuel (Chapter 7). Metal particles-comprising elements such as Al, Ti, Cr, Fe, Ni, and Ba-are estimated to be present at the parts per billion by volume (ppbv) level at nozzle exit planes (CIAP, 1975; Fordyce and Sheibley, 1975). The corresponding concentrations of 107 to 108 particles/kg fuel (assuming 1-mm radius; see below) are much smaller than for soot. Although metals have been found as residuals in cirrus and contrail ice particles (Chen et al., 1998; Petzold et al., 1998; Twohy and Gandrud, 1998), their number and associated mass are considered too small to affect the formation or properties of more abundant volatile and soot plume aerosol particles.


Every time you claim "it's just ice". You are blatantly lying, misleading the facts and misrepresenting the truth.

It's not just ice. It's also unburnt fuel, soot, sulfur dioxide, sulfuric acid, metal particulates, lots of carbon dioxide and other exhaust fumes.



I think I see the issue you are having. You seem to be equating jet engine exhaust with contrails. That would be incorrect; contrails are NOT jet engine exhaust, strictly speaking. You are confusing IIPC quotes involving engine exhaust such as this one:

Aviation and the Global Atmosphere

3.2.3.2 Metal Particles

Aircraft jet engines also directly emit metal particles. Their sources include engine erosion and the combustion of fuel containing trace metal impurities or metal particles that enter the exhaust with the fuel (Chapter 7). Metal particles-comprising elements such as Al, Ti, Cr, Fe, Ni, and Ba-are estimated to be present at the parts per billion by volume (ppbv) level at nozzle exit planes (CIAP, 1975; Fordyce and Sheibley, 1975). The corresponding concentrations of 107 to 108 particles/kg fuel (assuming 1-mm radius; see below) are much smaller than for soot. Although metals have been found as residuals in cirrus and contrail ice particles (Chen et al., 1998; Petzold et al., 1998; Twohy and Gandrud, 1998), their number and associated mass are considered too small to affect the formation or properties of more abundant volatile and soot plume aerosol particles.

with information in that same IIPC publication such as this one, which explains contrails:

3.2.4.1. Formation Conditions and Observations

Contrails consist of ice particles that mainly nucleate on exhaust soot and volatile plume aerosol particles. Contrail formation is caused by the increase in relative humidity (RH) that occurs in the engine plume as a result of mixing of warm and moist exhaust gases with colder and less humid ambient air (Schmidt, 1941; Appleman, 1953).



Granted, jet exhaust can cause contrails to form, but they are not themselves contrails, strictly speaking.

Most of the moisture for contrails (in fact the vast majority of the moisture that is a visible contrail) comes from the ambient moisture that was present in the air even before the plane flew through it. Much of that moisture that becomes a visible trail was sucked into the engine intake and totally bypasses the combustion chamber, and much of that visible trail is moisture that is pulled out of the air behind the plane through deposition.

edit on 7/20/2014 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 07:38 PM
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a reply to: Soylent Green Is People
To expand on that, only about one part in 10,000 of the water in a persistent contrail comes from the exhaust. The other 9,999 parts come from the air.

And of that 1 part in 10,000, as the IPCC report states, metal particulates are only "estimated to be present at the parts per billion by volume (ppbv) level".

A few parts per billion out of one part per 10,000? We're getting down to the parts per trillion level. Almost homeopathic dilutions... now there's a thought...



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 08:09 PM
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A T T E N T I O N



The insults and personal jibes stop now. This is a topic that brings out a lot of ire in some folks. Please focus on the topic and not each other.

thank you



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 08:49 PM
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a reply to: DenyObfuscation



like in this thread you(?) posted at Metabunk

I have never posted anything on metabunk ever.

WRONG



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 09:04 PM
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a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

Rob said contrails are just ice. My point is that contrails are not just ice.

Now, in some feeble attempt to prove he wasn't lying, he's claiming that the amount of metal particles, soot and exhaust gases are minimal.

Who's changing the goal posts now?

He said a contrail is just ice. Which is an outright lie.

Case closed

EDIT:



Aviation and the Global Atmosphere

3.2.3.2 Metal Particles

Aircraft jet engines also directly emit metal particles. Their sources include engine erosion and the combustion of fuel containing trace metal impurities or metal particles that enter the exhaust with the fuel (Chapter 7). Metal particles-comprising elements such as Al, Ti, Cr, Fe, Ni, and Ba-are estimated to be present at the parts per billion by volume (ppbv) level at nozzle exit planes (CIAP, 1975; Fordyce and Sheibley, 1975).

The corresponding concentrations of 107 to 108 particles/kg fuel (assuming 1-mm radius; see below) are much smaller than for soot. Although metals have been found as residuals in cirrus and contrail ice particles (Chen et al., 1998; Petzold et al., 1998; Twohy and Gandrud, 1998), their number and associated mass are considered too small to affect the formation or properties of more abundant volatile and soot plume aerosol particles.



originally posted by: Rob48

originally posted by: MagicWand67
a reply to: AlphaHawk




It appears that MagicWand67 is trying to derail this thread with disinformation.




It is indeed.

To sane people, this is ice.


To scammers, hoaxers and their gullible followers, it's aluminium, barium and human blood.


Who's the scammer now? I just proved that there is aluminum and barium in the exhaust. The amount is NOT the issue.

edit on 20-7-2014 by MagicWand67 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 09:21 PM
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a reply to: Rob48

Here's more proof that contrails are not just ice.

And that your attempt to minimize the metal particles, soot and exhaust gases is again LIES.

First direct sulfuric acid detection in the exhaust plume of a jet aircraft in flight



Sulfuric acid (SA) was for the first time directly detected in the exhaust plume of a jet aircraft in flight.



Sulfuric acid (SA) is thought to be formed in the exhaust plumes of jet aircraft and to have potentially important roles including new aerosol particle (AP)-formation, soot-activation, and eventually even water-contrail formation (cf. Friedl, 1997).

The influence of SA depends critically on the rate of SA-formation which in turn is determined by fuel consumption, the fuel-sulfur content (FSC) and the efficiency e of fuel-sulfur conversion to SA. The great interest in aircraft produced SA and its effects has stimulated numerous modeling activities as well as experimental work


EDIT:

H2SO4 (SULFURIC ACID) FROM AVIATION MAY BE HIGHER TODAY THAN WHAT WOULD BE REQUIRED FOR A GEOENGINEERING REGIME IN 2020


Given that by 1990 global aviation’s “annual contribution to the atmospheric sulfur budget by aircraft of 2.E7 kg H2SO4.” [3], and that by 2010 Aviation emissions could had been up 110% compared to 1990 levels [4] it is safe to assume that by the year 2013, H2SO4 by aircraft emissions is already at the level that would be required by 2020 for a geoengineering regime. In other words: geoengineering is way ahead of schedule!
edit on 20-7-2014 by MagicWand67 because: highlight text



NASA contrail science

The exhaust of an aircraft contains both gas (vapor) and solid particles. Both of these are important in the formation of contrails. Some elements of the exhaust gasses are not involved in contrail formation but do constitute air pollution. Emissions include carbon dioxide, water vapor, nitrogen oxides (NOx), carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons such as methane, sulfates (SOx), and soot and metal particles.
edit on 20-7-2014 by MagicWand67 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 10:15 PM
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originally posted by: waynos
a reply to: MagicWand67

Yeah, I saw that you THOUGHT that was an appropriate rebuff. You clearly don't comprehend nearly as much as you think you do.
Let's not forget the very specific accusation you made on a picture being photoshopped and "already debunked", which you've gone silent on since you were shown to actually be the blowhard that you previously just seemed to be.

Pollution is real, it's created by all means of travel and industrial activity and at all levels, but mainly on the ground. It's goons like you, the ones that are only concerned by aircraft because they might be spraying something deliberately, that are the Governments and the corporations best friends as you chase your tails while the environment suffers.

Time to grow up.




Nice personal attack. Calling me a goon, a blowhard and to grow up. Wow, the Trifecta of insults.

Regarding the photoshop comment. I already made it clear that I was joking.

I'm fully aware of the impact that automotive and industrial pollution has and I am equally concerned about it. In fact, when I lived in Manhattan, I experienced smog sickness first hand. That, however, is NOT the topic of this thread. So why would I comment on those issues here? You've assumed a lot about me, my character and my opinions. None of your assumptions are correct.

And as for attempt to minimize the effects of aviation pollution and it's environmental impacts.

CLOUDS CAUSED BY AIRCRAFT EXHAUST MAY WARM THE U.S. CLIMATE


NASA scientists have found that cirrus clouds, formed by contrails from aircraft engine exhaust, are capable of increasing average surface temperatures enough to account for a warming trend in the United States that occurred between 1975 and 1994.

"This result shows the increased cirrus coverage, attributable to air traffic, could account for nearly all of the warming observed over the United States for nearly 20 years starting in 1975, but it is important to acknowledge contrails would add to and not replace any greenhouse gas effect," said Patrick Minnis, senior research scientist at NASA's Langley Research Center in Hampton, Va. The study was published April 15 in the Journal of Climate. "During the same period, warming occurred in many other areas where cirrus coverage decreased or remained steady," he added.

"This study demonstrates that human activity has a visible and significant impact on cloud cover and, therefore, on climate. It indicates that contrails should be included in climate change scenarios," Minnis said.



"This study indicates that contrails already have substantial regional effects where air traffic is heavy, such as over the United States. As air travel continues growing in other areas, the impact could become globally significant," Minnis said.


It's people like YOU who need to grow up.



posted on Jul, 20 2014 @ 11:02 PM
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originally posted by: MagicWand67
a reply to: Rob48

Here's more proof that contrails are not just ice....


Again, exhaust moisture and particles are responsible for the formation of contrails and the begin the process for contrail growth and persistence.

However, saying that the contrail is mostly made up of the exhaust particles is akin to saying that a tree is mostly made up of material from a seed.

A contrail forms due to jet exhaust, but a contrail is not the same as jet exhaust.



edit on 7/20/2014 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 21 2014 @ 12:17 AM
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a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

The soot, metal particulates and other aerosols in the exhaust act as CCN for the ice crystals.

I do agree that the bulk of a contrail is H2O. That was never the issue.

Rob specifically said a contrail is ice and people who think they contain aluminum and barium are scammers.

Perhaps Rob was not lying and is just incorrect and misinformed. Either way he's WRONG.

Contrails do contain small amounts of aluminum, barium and other metal particulates.

They also contain methane, sulfates, soot and other exhaust gases. As stated on the NASA website.




Sulfuric acid, in geoengineering models, has been proven to be the best candidate for accomplishing SRM.

Source



By increasing the sulfur content in Jet fuel it increases the amount of sulfuric acid in the exhaust plume.


NASA - ACCESS 2

While it is known that contrails are ice particles that form when water vapor from jet exhaust condenses and freezes on some source of nuclei, there are a number of different models to suggest what the source of the nuclei might be, Anderson said.

The source could be soot from the jet engine exhaust, so the use of alternate fuels might reduce contrail formation. The source could be from the sulfur that is present in jet fuels, so a low-sulfur or non-sulfur fuel might make a difference. And still other models suggest that just the presence of normal background aerosols in the atmosphere is enough to trigger contrails.

"It could be any or all of those things. Some people say there’s so much water vapor in the exhaust of an aircraft that any particles at all will seed the formation of ice," Anderson said.

To help test at least one of those possibilities, for ACCESS II the DC-8 will fly with both a low sulfur and high sulfur grade of JP-8 jet fuel.


Using jet fuel with high sulfur content to test it's effects on contrail formation.

Sounds an awful lot like some SRM geoengineering schemes to me.

Like this one

Source

AEROSOL DISCUSSION BY ALVIA GASKILL
www.global-warming-geo-engineering.org...

Option 1: Increasing Sulfur Content of Jet Fuel in Commercial Fleet
Option 2: Direct Injection of Sulfur Dioxide Gas Using Dedicated Fleet of Jet Aircraft
Option 3: Direct Injection of Sulfur Dioxide Gas Using High Altitude Jet Aircraft
Option 4: Direct Injection of Ammonium Sulfate Aerosol Using Dedicated Fleet of Jet Aircraft
Option 5: Running Commercial Jet Engines with Richer Fuel to Air Ratio
Option 6: Running Dedicated Fleet of Jet Engines with Richer Fuel to Air Ratio
Option 7: Running High Altitude Aircraft Jet Engines with Richer Fuel to Air Ratio

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Prioritization of Sulfur/Soot Release Strategies
In the order in which they should be used.

1. Sulfur dioxide release using dedicated fleet or high altitude planes
2. Run engines rich on dedicated fleet or high altitude planes
3. Run engines rich on existing commercial fleet
4. Combination of rich fuel and high sulfur on commercial fleet
5. High sulfur fuel only on commercial fleet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Use of a dedicated fleet also frees up the planes to fly the most advantageous routes and times for release. As noted earlier, releases along the equator are more likely to become evenly distributed globally, while those at high latitudes tend to stay there. By not being locked into existing flight schedules, this release program will have much more flexibility.

The potential for civilian casualties is also greatly reduced, since the dedicated flights will carry no more than a dozen individuals vs. hundreds on commercial aircraft should a catastrophic failure result. Unlike the commercial fleet, these planes will not use high sulfur fuel, so any accidents would have to come from some other cause."


And this from the Aurora Geoengineering Cost Analysis Report

(note the last paragraph)

Sulfuric acid injection into the exhaust plume



And this


Modification of cirrus clouds to reduce global warming


2.2. Delivery mechanism
Since commercial airliners routinely fly in the region where cold cirrus clouds exist, it is hoped that the seeding material could either be

(1) dissolved or suspended in their jet fuel and later burned with the fuel to create seeding aerosol,

or

(2) injected into the hot engine exhaust, which should vaporize the seeding material, allowing it to condense as aerosol in the jet contrail.


The objective would not be to seed specific cloud systems but rather to build up a background concentration of aerosol seeding material so that the air masses that cirrus will form in will contain the appropriate amount
of seeding material to produce larger ice crystals. Since the residence time of seeding material might be on the order of
1–2 weeks, release rates of seeding material would need to account for this. With the delivery process already existing,
this geoengineering approach may be less expensive than other proposed approaches.


If you actually look up the facts then you will see that things are not as black and white as you might think.

I take issue with skeptics calling concerned people insane, scammers, hoaxers and gullible.


Originally posted by Rob48
To sane people, this is ice.

To scammers, hoaxers and their gullible followers, it's aluminium, barium


I hope that I have made my point clear now.
edit on 21-7-2014 by MagicWand67 because: (no reason given)






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