Save Earth or Save the Human Species?

originally posted by: Timing
a reply to: Chiftel
I'm very much a capitalist

Why? Because it is fashionable to claim to be so?

Or because you're scared of being labelled a leftist, marxist, socialist, communist, anticapitalist?

Or are you filthy rich so capitalism suits you cause you know you could never be filthy rich under a fair, just socio-economic system?

Basically, people support capitalism because they fear they will lose what they themselves inwardly, secretly, quietly know and admit are undeserved, arbitrary privileges.

What they don't understand, however, is that they would likely be significantly better of under a collective ownership, technocratic rule Resource Based Planned Economy.

a reply to: kwakakev

Once we figure out what gravity is and how to recreate it, then we can reproduce Earth like environments anywhere in the universe, and even on spaceships.

originally posted by: Timing

The other problem with geo-engineering is that we don't understand the climate or the earth well enough to know that we aren't going to significantly change the climate in a way that kills us all. All the solutions so far like dumping billions of tons of iron in the ocean, has an adverse effect on ocean habitats and could possibly plunge us into an ice age.

Which is exactly why we shouldn't start messing around with other planets. If we can't even figure our own out, you know?

There are no scientific grounds on which to base a plausible plan for colonization. There are no moral grounds on which to base a plausible plan for colonization.

So we should forget about it and focus on our problems in the here and now. Is all I'm saying.

originally posted by: ketsuko
If you don't let people keep the fruits of their labor, they lose the will to try.

Like they do in capitalism, right?

Like researchers working for Bayer or engineers working for GM get to keep the fruits of their labour.

Or employees in general get to keep keep the fruits of their labour.

Right...

a reply to: ketsuko

Great thoughts!

That was the other benefit to colonizing space too. People that have extreme ideological differences are more than welcome to go find another planet to carry out their social experiment.

a reply to: Chiftel

No, I believe in capitalism because you can't legislate morality and it works, when the government does what it is supposed to do and isn't corrupt.

Besides without capitalism we will lack the freedom to make colonization and saving of earth a reality.

a reply to: NthOther

Well, there are planets that are completely desolate. I don't really see the harm in geo-engineering "dead" planets as it's just a huge collection of minerals floating in orbit.

If Mars blew up we'd probably have to worry about huge pieces hitting Earth and what not, but it's not going to throw the Solar System out of balance.

That's the thing, we don't have the knowledge or technology to successfully geo-engineer Earth. Eventually an ELE is going to happen and we will be wiped-out. So all that problem solving will be for naught.

originally posted by: NthOther
Anything else is pure fantasy.

"The faculty or activity of imagining impossible or improbable things"

I'd think to some people of the past, the idea that I could communicate this idea over an electronic network would be just that.

Some fantasies are meant to be dreamt into a reality.

The tyranny of the mob is among the worst. Pure democracy is one of the worst and most violently tyrannical of any political system. Democracy is very easy for elites to influence through control of information.
A Republic gives voice to the majority, protects the rights of the minority, and in a federal republic, gives power to the people through local governments (which is the only level where any form of democracy can actually work as it is theoretically supposed to).

Private property is the root of freedom and any advanced society. Free market capitalism (as opposed to big government sponsored cronyism) is the ultimate way to create the best for the most, which has been constantly demonstrated for the last couple hundred years. The market represents the opposite of tyranny until it is compromised by elite forces via centralization and collectivist redistribution schemes. Not in 6000 years of human history has a non aristocratic dependent had political power and they never will. Only societies that promote self reliance (ie private property and capitalism) can achieve any true freedom and prosperity for the average joe.

Save Humans, DUH!!!

Humanity is not all bad, look at this Forum, are you bad? no.

Humanity has the capacity to learn from its mistakes, we just need a reset, I know it sounds terrible, but it is what it is.

There good people in this world, hard working people, the wrong ones are in power, sprinkled with a good few ones who try to do their best with what they got.

I believe in mankind.

a reply to: Arnie123

Well, we could save the planet ... but would there be anyone around to appreciate that grand sacrifice? And if any creatures did evolve enough to realize what we did on their theoretical behalf ... well what guarantee is there that they would be any better for the planet than we are?

a reply to: Arnie123

I agree. There are few situations that make me question my faith in humanity.

Life would be really boring if we were all the same, so we have to accept some people will get their jollies by hurting people.

a reply to: Timing

I didn't read replies yet so my option stays my own...

Save Mother Earth, she isn't done birthing which is her right.

We may go...or not it doesn't matter....there were us before and will be after as far as I am concerned. Though we won't and didn't look the same, in my opinion.

We have a much stronger chance of longevity if we learn "to pick up our own trash behind us , and deal with it properly"...not like some are taught...properly.

A new form of society is clearly in order, one truly seperate from religions and supporting all religions....for truth.

For that to happen the current leader in world reality must abdicate and be humbled to walk among peers and not be an insolent child (my nation and others guilty).

Being good stewards of the land and our waste will teach us how to live elsewhere, we can slow but keep on mother natures teet, and not waste her to nothing....although we should be far from weening by now.

I would personally like to see at leat 50 percent of the worlds nature fund to be directed to ocean water filtration systems in every city and then some...then the 30 present to the air filtration...even rudementary. The other to the dear animals and plants....they get this now and it is a least measure by far.....currently I think the other 80 present is lining pockets and changing nothing.

Summing up my thinking, if we support what we have first ...we support other ogamisms on the cusp if not surpassing of conciousness, and being in the present with knowledge and understanding.

As well as being in the best learning and supporting roll possible, we could be the strongest "alien" support to our cousins, and that might just be the point. How can we even think we would be welcomed out there if we don't welcome ourselves fully?

We need to heal both ourselves as a species and our environment.

Thanks for a think OP, nice topic.

Got to read the other options now, and see what's the scoop.


Cheers

The entire world population could fit in the state of Texas and live comfortably so this overpopulation myth is complete Socialist Tripe.

19 Totally Incredible Facts

I am not advocating the we do not take care of the Earth, but in many ways, finding ways to push off of her might be the best way to save her. Instead of mining her, why not learn how to mine the asteroids or other dead bodies?

Not only that, but the things we will have to learn in order to successfully live in space will also be very useful in learning how to better live on Earth. Do you want to see a true alternative energy? Then learn to live somewhere without readily available forms of fossil energy. It would be an immediate and real puzzle that would have to be solved and made practical where the pressure just doesn't exist here no matter how much government tries to create it. And that's just one potential benefit that could be sent back.

There are two choices. Turn the Earth into a spaceship that doesn't require a Star to keep it alive (dyson sphere). Build spaceships. Earth is already D E A D. Just like me and you. It lives in the same Universe we do. The very same Universe that has but one prupose, exterminate life, wherever it finds it. Science tells us one thing. The Universe is the most perfect killing machine ever devised. But I digress. If we don't leave we die as a species. If we do leave, we can take the critters we need to with us, and dump the rest. I could care less, either way, I KNOW I am already a dead man. Just like Earth.

originally posted by: Timing
a reply to: Chiftel

No, I believe in capitalism because you can't legislate morality and it works, when the government does what it is supposed to do and isn't corrupt.

Besides without capitalism we will lack the freedom to make colonization and saving of earth a reality.

Oh, really?

So capitalism is not corrupt. Private parties and agents are not corrupt?

Only the government is / can be corrupt.

So, for instance, if I betray my employer's trade secrets to a competitor for money, that's not corruption, right?

That's just a voluntary contract between consenting parties.

Or if I bribe a government official, only the government is the corrupt. Neither the official nor me. We're just free agents, each acting in (what we perceive to be in) his own best interest.

So you believe in capitalism, do you?

That can only mean one thing: you haven't understood it yet.

It works, you say?

Well, for some, I should think so.

Everything and anything works for some.

Capitalism is broken.

That's why it needs perpetual exponential growth of the money supply. Otherwise its starts collapsing.

For no real, physical reason. It's not like we don't have the resources, technology and know-how to fix the world's problems in capitalism.

We just don't have the money.

Even though we print or issue trillions of new monies each year.

Nope. Not enough money.

That's why we can't have nice things.

Not because of actual scarcity or actual difficulty in manufacturing what we need (not necessarily what we want), in the amounts we need (not necessarily how much we want).

You see, the good Earth is rich and can provide for everyone.

But greed... greed has poisoned men's souls and clouded their minds.

No, not everyone can have their own yacht. But everyone should have food, clothes, a roof over their heads and basic appliances and utilities / a personal computer + internet access. And they can also time share yachts or cruise ships.

We just don't have the money for it.

Even though, again, we can issue as much money as we want, out of thin air. And we kind of do.

However, we've decided, as a society, that most of the new money should go to the already filthy rich, who own the #ing printing presses (the banking system). For them to spend on whatever the # they want.

Cause capitalism works! And the rich do useful stuff for society (yeah, right).

Sure. Keep telling yourself that. They got you thinking just what they want you to think.

originally posted by: Chiftel

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Chiftel
You get to take what the community decides is reasonable for you to take. For as long as we decide you can take it and for the purposes we decide.

It's called democracy.

Nah. I opted to fill my rocket with everything I want. Most of it wholly unnecessary for my future life.

You don't get to opt for that.

You get to opt for one among the options the human community who collectively own this rock allows you to choose from.

Imagine a submariner suddenly getting it in his head he owns stuff on the boat and claiming it is his right to do so.

That's basically the concept of private property.

And your point of view.

However, you don't own the boat. You're just one of the crew who, collectively, owns the entire boat.

Imagine the cook decided one day he owns the food on the vessel.

Because he homestead the kitchen or something or because he cooked it, thereby mixing in his labour.

That's basically the concept of private property for you.

Patently absurd.

Only thing more absurd is the concept of there being a right of inheritance.

Why shouldnt I have a right to the things I helped my family build? Just because my father was the last legal owner or creator of whatever is inherited doesnt mean that others of his family didnt support him and help him build it. Therefore whatever he has is as much as mine.

Maybe the problem goes back to 'family' and people not adhering to the ideals of personal responsibility when it comes to raising your children. If you raise them correctly they will want to participate with you and thus you can build things together.

Now inheritance in the form of someone being the sole heir to an estranged family member is ridiculous. If you arent directly involved then you shouldnt get anything from long lost family. However in my situation, if my father was to pass tomorrow without warning, i would be completely screwed out of much of what I have built due to the death tax and the government getting like 80% of the estate.

Thankfully we are preparing for that scenario so I dont have to rebuild or lose everything. Our family has worked for 3 generations to be where we are in the industry we love, and I will be darned if Obama gets to interject his thoughts that far into my life.

a reply to: tencap77

I would have agreed with the core of your reasoning but one thing.....

I personally am not cool with leaving them behind...or er...the rest of them ....we need them for later....least I do...

Cheers to your thoughts

a reply to: Timing

Lack of customers?

You realize a corporation is only as strong as its bottom line, right?