An Eye Opening Look At Israel's Ugly History

You are failing to apply your own logic in reverse.

1) The nation of Israel did not exist for thousands of years until recently.

2) And, a large number of Jews living there moved there from Europe or other places.

3) Third, many may actually be ancient convert genetic lines, not actual Hebrews.

4) Fourth, you have no real evidence that none of the Palestinians have genetic lines that extend in the area as far as or even farther than the Jews, meaning 3-4000 years or more.

5) Fifth, the Torah itself says that the Hebrews were not native to the land and in fact invaded an already occupied country.

6) Sixth, although Israel has a right to exist and Jews should be able to live there, Jews themselves do not have any better claim to the land than an ancient 2000 year old plus document. It's called an argument from authority, a classic logical fallacy.

7) Seventh, and perhaps MOST important, there is anthropological and genetic evidence that many "Arabs" or Palestinians may be descended from Jews, but converted to Islam over a 1000 years ago.

You aren't going to be able to effectively disprove anything I just said without using ideas or evidence that call into question other "chosen people" or Biblical arguments.

originally posted by: Freenrgy2
a reply to: buster2010

Please read the essay from the link I posted. I think you'll find out your thinking on this matter is completely wrong from a historical context.

A couple of excepts from the essay:

What other Arabs declared after the Six-Day War:

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".

- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -

"You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people".

- Syrian dictator Hafez Assad to the PLO leader Yassir Arafat -

"As I lived in Palestine, everyone I knew could trace their heritage back to the original country their great grandparents came from. Everyone knew their origin was not from the Canaanites, but ironically, this is the kind of stuff our education in the Middle East included. The fact is that today's Palestinians are immigrants from the surrounding nations! I grew up well knowing the history and origins of today's Palestinians as being from Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Christians from Greece, muslim Sherkas from Russia, muslims from Bosnia, and the Jordanians next door. My grandfather, who was a dignitary in Bethlehem, almost lost his life by Abdul Qader Al-Husseni (the leader of the Palestinian revolution) after being accused of selling land to Jews. He used to tell us that his village Beit Sahur (The Shepherds Fields) in Bethlehem County was empty before his father settled in the area with six other families. The town has now grown to 30,000 inhabitants".

- Walid Shoebat, an "ex-Palestinian" Arab -

Quote frankly, I don't care what anyone else thinks. Palestine is a myth and political tool to be used against Israel. In fact, I hope it makes a lot of you on here angry. Darkness hates the light and the truth.

Once one is actually IN A WAR, you can strike various military targets such as missile sites or what have you. It's kinda like if you punch me in the face and start a fight I am allowed to strike you back wherever I choose. The laws on self-defense for nations don't allow the INITIAL attack unilaterally or preemptively.

So, for example, you can't strike the missile/SAM sites of another country or entity unless they have started a conflict with you. Once they have, then you can strike those sites.

originally posted by: MALBOSIA

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: hxc408
a reply to: buster2010
I already corrected my mistake in an earlier post. Way to go.

And shut up about the law already, they are a sovereign state.

And you are still wrong. The Israeli's still started that war. They are part of the UN at least they claim this when it benefits them so they are still bound by international law. Just because you are ignorant of the history of that terrorist state you are supporting doesn't mean I have to shut up.

Exactly. UN Charter law applies to all countries. They cannot strike any other country unilaterally or preemptively, but only in response to actually attack. For example, it was illegal under international law for Israel to strike in Syria last year a convoy of suspected weapons that Israel claimed were destined for Lebanon or Israel's enemies. Preemptive strikes are prohibited.

That is right. Look how many Americans died in Vietnam keeping true to that. They knew where the SAMS were. They knew they were being pointed at American forces but they were still not allowed to strike them till they were launched.

The law is the law.

originally posted by: ParasuvO
We do not like those that claim they are better than everyone else.

Kind of like how muslin's treat and view Infidels today? Or how about kind of how the Japanese view anyone that is not full blooded Japanese on the main land? Ever talk to a Saudi or Kuwaiti?
BTW who are "we"?

a reply to: Xtrozero

The laws prohibiting military annexation came after WW2. It would be best to keep emotions out of this and just stick to
the laws.

Jewish and Israeli Palestine. I am sorry, I looked on a map and cannot find a nation named Palestine anywhere. It seems it wad wiped of the map...

a reply to: MALBOSIA

www.ifamericansknew.org...

originally posted by: MALBOSIA
Jewish and Israeli Palestine. I am sorry, I looked on a map and cannot find a nation named Palestine anywhere. It seems it wad wiped of the map...

You are right they do not exist anymore other than what we have as Israel and Jordan. The Ottoman area that was referred to as Palestine was made up of Jews and Arabs that had been there for 1000s of years. What part do you not understand that Jordan was created as the home for the Arab Palestine and Israel was created as the home for the Jewish Palestine...you do not need to agree with it but that is the way it is.

Look at an old map that shows the Ottoman empire for a start....

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14
That is ridiculous if you are being serious. It's not true.

Once one is actually IN A WAR, you can strike various military targets such as missile sites or what have you. It's kinda like if you punch me in the face and start a fight I am allowed to strike you back wherever I choose. The laws on self-defense for nations don't allow the INITIAL attack unilaterally or preemptively.

So, for example, you can't strike the missile/SAM sites of another country or entity unless they have started a conflict with you. Once they have, then you can strike those sites.

originally posted by: MALBOSIA

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: hxc408
a reply to: buster2010
I already corrected my mistake in an earlier post. Way to go.

And shut up about the law already, they are a sovereign state.

And you are still wrong. The Israeli's still started that war. They are part of the UN at least they claim this when it benefits them so they are still bound by international law. Just because you are ignorant of the history of that terrorist state you are supporting doesn't mean I have to shut up.

Exactly. UN Charter law applies to all countries. They cannot strike any other country unilaterally or preemptively, but only in response to actually attack. For example, it was illegal under international law for Israel to strike in Syria last year a convoy of suspected weapons that Israel claimed were destined for Lebanon or Israel's enemies. Preemptive strikes are prohibited.

That is right. Look how many Americans died in Vietnam keeping true to that. They knew where the SAMS were. They knew they were being pointed at American forces but they were still not allowed to strike them till they were launched.

The law is the law.

In a war yes. Vietnam was defined as a conflict. The rules of engagement were posted for all to see, even the enemy. As much as I agree that Israel and the Palestinians are at war it is still at this point defined as a "clash" or "conflict"

originally posted by: rigel4
www.ifamericansknew.org...

Lol have you actually looked at the size of oil rich Jordan compared to Israel? Other than historical landmarks who got the better of the deal? Plus the area of Israel was where the Jews lived, the Arab Palestine were nomads that mainly lived where Jordan is today.

I'm not sure the point everyone is trying to make since the legitimacy of Israel is the same as the other four countries all created under the same treaty.

Ah gotcha, an important point.

But even in an undeclared war, if Canada randomly attacked the US tomorrow, we could still target some key missile sites if they were projected to be used.

I'm not sure how long retaliation or self-defense is allowed to occur. Do you know?

Also, as far as Vietnam, I really think we should not have been there. And it quite obviously wasn't in self-defense. So I don't think that therefore we can ethically target facilities including SAMs. The people who are blame for the death of those American soldiers, just like in Iraq, are the American leaders and the Pentagon for sending them to a part of the world we had no business intervening in. It was all global politics and power plays with the Soviet Union, a true proxy war.

originally posted by: MALBOSIA

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14
That is ridiculous if you are being serious. It's not true.

Once one is actually IN A WAR, you can strike various military targets such as missile sites or what have you. It's kinda like if you punch me in the face and start a fight I am allowed to strike you back wherever I choose. The laws on self-defense for nations don't allow the INITIAL attack unilaterally or preemptively.

So, for example, you can't strike the missile/SAM sites of another country or entity unless they have started a conflict with you. Once they have, then you can strike those sites.

originally posted by: MALBOSIA

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: hxc408
a reply to: buster2010
I already corrected my mistake in an earlier post. Way to go.

And shut up about the law already, they are a sovereign state.

And you are still wrong. The Israeli's still started that war. They are part of the UN at least they claim this when it benefits them so they are still bound by international law. Just because you are ignorant of the history of that terrorist state you are supporting doesn't mean I have to shut up.

Exactly. UN Charter law applies to all countries. They cannot strike any other country unilaterally or preemptively, but only in response to actually attack. For example, it was illegal under international law for Israel to strike in Syria last year a convoy of suspected weapons that Israel claimed were destined for Lebanon or Israel's enemies. Preemptive strikes are prohibited.

That is right. Look how many Americans died in Vietnam keeping true to that. They knew where the SAMS were. They knew they were being pointed at American forces but they were still not allowed to strike them till they were launched.

The law is the law.

In a war yes. Vietnam was defined as a conflict. The rules of engagement were posted for all to see, even the enemy. As much as I agree that Israel and the Palestinians are at war it is still at this point defined as a "clash" or "conflict"

originally posted by: MALBOSIA

originally posted by: CommandoJoe

originally posted by: MALBOSIA
a reply to: CommandoJoe

A black man was always allowed to be the POTUS. of coarse no one believed it till it happened. I guess when Israel gets it's first non Jewish prez we will see just how far behind Israel is from the free world.

I never said it was very likely, but you said it wasn't allowed...

And Israel IS part of the free world. Much more free than most. Not perfect, but better than the US, that's why I came here am staying as long as I can. I'll leave the specifics for another thread though.

Maybe tell that to the Palestinians. I think they might be getting the wrong impression of your free world with all the walls and checkpoints etc.

I never said not allowed "by law" but they are not allowed just the same.

Are you Jewish? That is not a loaded question, btw.

I posted this earlier today, in another thread:

Something of note: 20%+ of the Israeli population (Just Israel, not Gaza or WB) is Arab (Many of which identify themselves as Palestinian), including Muslims, and they hold Israeli citizenship. They are able to live peacefully within Israel, and I bet their standard of living here is much better than it would be in any of the neighboring Arab countries... They could leave Israel if they wanted to, but they don't. Something to think about...

Why do you think it is that the Palestinians living within Israel can peacefully coexist while those in Gaza cannot? Hamas is the problem... The people of Gaza need to get rid of Hamas and other extremists and then maybe there can be peace. Unless that happens, I seriously doubt peace is possible.

I have no doubt that many people living in Gaza want peace with Israel, but Hamas is in power and they might as well be a dictatorship - they came to power by threats, intimidation, assault, and murder. They would shoot their political opponents in the legs and throw them off the nearest building. Very easy to win an "election" when you have no opposition.
THAT is how they became the "Democratically elected government of Gaza" - I am so sick of that phase everyone loves to parrot, it is utter BS and anyone who uses it needs to do some research and learn the facts (about that and other things they are likely wrong about).

I am not Jewish - American living here for work. A little over 4 years total time since 2008. Why do you ask? Think I'm just another Jew blindly supporting Israel? If you read some of my posts in other threads you'll find that I don't support everything Israel does or has done, but when it comes to fighting Hamas, that is a no-brainer, especially since my life is on the line... That does tend to influence your perspective on things.

You just killed it. Nice.

originally posted by: sosobad
a reply to: hxc408

Ok, I stand corrected that they were fighting defensively.

Read the entire article from the link, not defensive, they amassed troops first, they struck first, they invaded the land. A war of aggression plain and simple

I have to admit creating Palestine is the last thing this unstable world needs.

Why? They are human beings that just want to be treated as such, not segregated and have their lands taken for settlements that have no right being there, if Israel can exist as a state why can't Palestine?

I know that was a bit of a tangent but you only corrected me on the smallest issue of the things I brought up.

Ok I take a stab at the rest

If that were so, why does everyone that disagrees with Israel, a majority coming from the left to far left want another state that will probably outlaw homosexuality and be just as violent and barren as all the other countries under Islamic control

That is just a bold face lie, I personally come from a country that condemns Israels actions, it is not an Islamic state and is very tolerant to homosexuality, the Palestinians want to live live every other normal person in this world but are being stopped by Israel, blockaded from food, water and medical supplies, Israel is making Palestine violent and barren.

Because you chose a dated map simply because it would play to the lie you are either a victim of or intentionally propagating

And you have done the exact same thing, your map shows what land that Israel illegally invaded under false pretenses

But do me a favor, when you say "do you think they gave it away because they didn't need it?" Well ironically Israel did just that.

They gave it back because it was illegal to keep it.

Secondly, if you can show me any real proof that "Palestine" has a legitimate historical claim to the land, I might be swayed

And what historical claim did a bunch of Europeans have to that land? Besides a book that for all we know could be a fairytale, "God promised us the land" is the biggest BS ever. Show me proof of that and I might be swayed

Unless you think states/provinces created by empires that were only there as conquerors counts.

You mean Israel yes? Because that is exactly what the US and UK done after WW2.

a reply to: buster2010


Here is a reply regarding the killers of Palestinian Child.....

its quick move to arrest the Jewish extremists charged in an apparent revenge killing would lower the temperature. But the ARRESTS appeared to do little to quiet the protests that have engulfed Israel and the West Bank in the week since the murder of a Palestinian boy.


“We worked immediately to find the perpetrators,” Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told the boy’s father in a phone call on Monday. “They will be tried and brought to justice.”

time.com

a reply to: MALBOSIA

Okay i will take your ridiculous reply to my post on! Number one Bibi would 100,000,000 better than that ASS HAT we have as president! Say what you will but he has done more to help the United States than most in our own Govt. have!
At least Netanyahu has BALLS! Obama wears panties!

If you were not so quick to breeze through what i said, I emphasized Fatah was the Palestinian Authority!! All through the little piece i quoted i made a point of saying this was PA not the people!! DOH***


To say that well yeah they will kidnap and so does Israel is the same as "tit for tat, you skin my dog, I'll kill your cat!!"

Are you off your nut? I don't care which country would use innocent children as pawns and murder them in some sicko game!! It is WRONG PERIOD!!!

So because Hamas was democratically elected, you support terrorism and that is okay since it was a fair election!! Ahahahah LMAO!! That would be funny if not so demented!

Next you say its only kidnapping not murder now that is "RICH" LOL "gee whiz its only kidnapping, its no big deal nobody got killed"!! EXCEPT they did!!!! IT IS AND WAS MURDER!!! Nice try at spinning! Major FAIL!!


For your information, Israel has given more and more land to the Palestinians than any other country has ever given in the entire world!!!!!!!! It is Israels country no one else's!! I am sorry for the Palestinians but they need to grow up except what is and start to deal with it the facts! If they want a better life then launching rockets into Israel on a daily basis is not the way to achieve something better for yourself......But they cannot let it go!!! and it is that mentality that keeps them exactly where they are!!

Life is not fair, we all know this and I think the Jews know it very well the Holocaust proved that point!!!

You write like you are a MAJOR Anti Semitic!!

Pax

a reply to: paxnatus

Netanyahu is a Zionist Terrorist! He has no balls! He hides behind his ally American Balls and his Holocaust lies!

What he and his so called people are doing to Palestine is Genocide!

Just look how he is programming the Jew idiots in Israel.

The youths of the Jewish state are attacking Palestinians in the streets of Jerusalem, just like gentile youths used to attack Jews in the streets of Europe. The Israelis of the Jewish state are rampaging on social networks, displaying hatred and a lust for revenge, unprecedented in its diabolic scope. Some unknown people from the Jewish state, purely based on his ethnicity. These are the children of the nationalistic and racist generation – Netanyahu’s offspring.

For five years now, they have been hearing nothing but incitement, scaremongering and supremacy over Arabs from this generation’s true instructor, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Not one humane word, no commiseration or equal treatment.

Our Wretched Jewish State!

To be a Jew used to mean something in this world!

Now the people of the world see TERRORISM!

originally posted by: MALBOSIA
How primitive is that? I am pretty sure farm animals have a more complex social system than Israel.

You are pretty sure that farm animals have a more complex social system than Israel.

originally posted by: xxspadyxx
a reply to: TheAlmo

This post is absolutely ridiculous and made me make an account on this website and wrote a comment do to how laughable it is that you are calling Israel a terrorist country!!. As far as I and most the world are concerned, Well those who are blinded by not only extreme islamics but the majority of any person who is dumb enough to follow Islam. Israel is the only normal country in that god for saken region in which the world can actually conversant with and talk diplomatic with them unlike there surrounding neighbors who would like to nuke anything and everything in the world that does not follow the way of some stupid bastard named muhammad and the koran. Israel has been defending themselves since day 1 when they became a country, and just because your mad because they don't follow the way of your religion and have been attacked for it from the gecko in which they just kick you ass every time and can single handily defeat every country in there region by themselves DOES NOT MAKE THEM A TERRORIST A STATE. That kind of non-sense comes with following a society who uses religion to do evil.

Its funny how all the surrounding countries started this conflict in the first place for not acknowledging them as a valid country and vowing to destroy them from day one. Yet Isreal has won every war/conflict against them, so now all you little cry babies Israel haters want to cry and complain about them because you have completely failed to do anything and Israel is the strongest military country in the region now and if you couldn't even win a war against them when they were nothing in the 1950s, you can clearly see theres nothing that can be done to them today other then crying about how mean they are for winning a wars/battles that the islamic countries in the area have continuously started with them.

Ding ding ding, I guess we found the Israeli shill.
Have a drink you deserve it

a reply to: paxnatus

If you think that the member's response was ridiculous, that is your right and prerogative. None of that makes it less real, true and recognised as such by any thinking member among us.

You bothered to type words and then accused the member of anti-semitism after all that work, rendering anything you might have written that came close to being worth reading with an open mind as a waste of time.

The minute someone invokes that bullsht accusation, their whole argument flies out the window and into a big, steaming pile of horse manure. It's what desperate jews, israelis and zionists accuse people they disagree with of being, in order to attempt to shame or guilt them - not going to work anymore and not going to work with us, especially.

originally posted by: CommandoJoe

originally posted by: MALBOSIA

originally posted by: CommandoJoe

originally posted by: MALBOSIA
a reply to: CommandoJoe

A black man was always allowed to be the POTUS. of coarse no one believed it till it happened. I guess when Israel gets it's first non Jewish prez we will see just how far behind Israel is from the free world.

I never said it was very likely, but you said it wasn't allowed...

And Israel IS part of the free world. Much more free than most. Not perfect, but better than the US, that's why I came here am staying as long as I can. I'll leave the specifics for another thread though.

Maybe tell that to the Palestinians. I think they might be getting the wrong impression of your free world with all the walls and checkpoints etc.

I never said not allowed "by law" but they are not allowed just the same.

Are you Jewish? That is not a loaded question, btw.

I posted this earlier today, in another thread:

Something of note: 20%+ of the Israeli population (Just Israel, not Gaza or WB) is Arab (Many of which identify themselves as Palestinian), including Muslims, and they hold Israeli citizenship. They are able to live peacefully within Israel, and I bet their standard of living here is much better than it would be in any of the neighboring Arab countries... They could leave Israel if they wanted to, but they don't. Something to think about...

Why do you think it is that the Palestinians living within Israel can peacefully coexist while those in Gaza cannot? Hamas is the problem... The people of Gaza need to get rid of Hamas and other extremists and then maybe there can be peace. Unless that happens, I seriously doubt peace is possible.

I have no doubt that many people living in Gaza want peace with Israel, but Hamas is in power and they might as well be a dictatorship - they came to power by threats, intimidation, assault, and murder. They would shoot their political opponents in the legs and throw them off the nearest building. Very easy to win an "election" when you have no opposition.
THAT is how they became the "Democratically elected government of Gaza" - I am so sick of that phase everyone loves to parrot, it is utter BS and anyone who uses it needs to do some research and learn the facts (about that and other things they are likely wrong about).

I am not Jewish - American living here for work. A little over 4 years total time since 2008. Why do you ask? Think I'm just another Jew blindly supporting Israel? If you read some of my posts in other threads you'll find that I don't support everything Israel does or has done, but when it comes to fighting Hamas, that is a no-brainer, especially since my life is on the line... That does tend to influence your perspective on things.

HAMAS is the result of Israeli policy. If you are saying that those living in Gaza and the west bank should just accept the fact that their homeland was stolen fair and square, you should understand that some might object.

I imagine the Palestinians living in Israel do so because of gainful employment. They have accepted the fact that Israel will not allow an economy inside Gaza or the west bank until the Palestinians vote for who Israel wants them to vote for. You know, extortion...

By extreme do you mean the ones that believe one day they may be able to fly the Palestinian flag over it's lawfully entitled land?

I asked if you were Jewish because I was trying to understand what brought you there. Basically if you have a personal bias towards this, yes. Is that wrong?

I live in a country that apologizes often to different groups (mostly first nations) for all the terrible things we did to them in order to establish this great nation. The amount of awareness that is given to such atrocities in modern times really makes me shake my head watching it happen in real time.

originally posted by: MALBOSIA
HAMAS is the result of Israeli policy. If you are saying that those living in Gaza and the west bank should just accept the fact that their homeland was stolen fair and square, you should understand that some might object.

I didn't say that, but there is a better way of doing things than attacking Israeli civilians with missiles.

I imagine the Palestinians living in Israel do so because of gainful employment. They have accepted the fact that Israel will not allow an economy inside Gaza or the west bank until the Palestinians vote for who Israel wants them to vote for. You know, extortion...

Like I said, if Israel is such a horrible country to live in or with, they are free to leave the country at any time - nobody is forcing them to stay here. It's not just gainful employment, it standard of living/quality of life compared to what they would have in any other country in the region. Women are not required to cover themselves like many Arab countries, but if you want to you can, it's not restricted like France.

By extreme do you mean the ones that believe one day they may be able to fly the Palestinian flag over it's lawfully entitled land?

By extreme(ists) I mean the ones trying to kill civilians living in Israel... The terrorists of Hamas and their related/similar organizations.
If they want to be called freedom fighters rather than terrorists, they should only be attacking military targets and the wall/fence, not people like me...

I asked if you were Jewish because I was trying to understand what brought you there. Basically if you have a personal bias towards this, yes. Is that wrong?

Not at all, the question doesn't bother me, I was just curious. Many assume I am Israeli and/or Jewish because I support (most) of what Israel is doing. Before I came here I didn't hardly know anything about Israel or much about the conflict. I pictured the West Bank to be where Gaza is since that's the west coast of Israel... Makes sense right?
I've learned a lot living here, and I try to share my unique point of view and dispel some of the myth, rumor, and lies that are posted on ATS.

originally posted by: spirited75
a reply to: MALBOSIA

I asked for an interpreter earlier and my comment
was deleted due to a manners violation.

Thank you for interpreting.



Only a Jew can become the President of a JEWISH COUNTRY?

How dumb and stupid is that?

They should allow a NAZI or a COMMUNIST to become the PRESIDENT of a JEWISH COUNTRY.

By labeling themselves as a Jewish nation the are by default not a real Democracy. Therefore everyone else is a second class citizen they do not have the same rights as Jews.