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originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: TheChrome
Not to defend the claims in the op (which clearly go against all context of scripture), but both the Aleppo Codex and the Leningrad Codex say "be'yam suph".
biblehub.com...
Are you refering to another codex?
originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Utnapisjtim
TextFrom the Babylonian Talmud of Hillel (Same name as is translated into Lucifer in KJV) to different rabbinical traditions.
Hillel the elder was not the author of the Babylonian Talmud but only one of many who helped develop its creation. Also the Jerusalem Talmud agrees with the Babylonian Talmud of which Hillel had nothing to offer.
The Greek NT informs us of the schools of Hillel and Shammai and it is the school of Hillel of which the Apostles regarded as in the most Godly order. This school of Hillel in which the apostle Paul studied under the grandson of Hillel the elder is none other than the school of the Apostles. In fact it was this very Hillel who was Nasi of the Sanhedrin in the days of Jesus.
originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: TheChrome
Not to defend the claims in the op (which clearly go against all context of scripture), but both the Aleppo Codex and the Leningrad Codex say "be'yam suph".
biblehub.com...
Are you refering to another codex?
Yam Suph (Hebrew: יַם-סוּף) is a phrase which occurs about 23 times in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible/Old Testament) and has traditionally been understood to refer to the salt water inlet located between Africa and the Arabian peninsula, known in English as the Red Sea. More recently, alternative western scholarly understandings of the term have been proposed for those passages where it refers to the Israelite Crossing of the Sea as told in Exodus 13-15. These proposals would mean that Yam Suph is better translated in these passages as Sea of Reeds or Sea of Seaweed; see Egyptian reed fields, also described as the ka of the Nile Delta. In Jewish sources I Kings 9:26 "yam suph" is translated as Sea of Reeds at Eilat on the Gulf of Eilat.
originally posted by: TheChrome
originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: TheChrome
Not to defend the claims in the op (which clearly go against all context of scripture), but both the Aleppo Codex and the Leningrad Codex say "be'yam suph".
biblehub.com...
Are you refering to another codex?
Good point! The Aleppo and Leningrad Codex do render Exodus 15:4 as Yam-Suph. Compare Acts 7:36 and Hebrews 11:29 which use the Greek words erythra and Thalassa, meaning Red Sea. Ask the question: if Israel crossed a marsh or "reed sea" how would Pharaoh's be swallowed up by water?
en.wikipedia.org...
Another Paul bashing thread. I guess that is your hobby.
Tex tSaul Paulus, being a Pharicee and a murderer of prophets and saints-- naturally he was a Talmudian. He never met Jesus and was a self proclaimed apostle. A fraud, a spy and an agent working for Rome and the Sanhedrin against Christendom, who infiltrated and destroyed Early Christendom, and was responsible for killing perhaps hundreds of Christians before he magically converted after seeing a vision of Jesus.
Text“Saul Paulus, being a Pharicee and a murderer of prophets and saints-- naturally he was a Talmudian. He never met Jesus and was a self proclaimed apostle. A fraud, a spy and an agent working for Rome and the Sanhedrin against Christendom, who infiltrated and destroyed Early Christendom, and was responsible for killing perhaps hundreds of Christians before he magically converted after seeing a vision of Jesus.”
originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Utnapisjtim
The word 'sup' can have a number of definitions
originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Utnapisjtim
Suph also means ,'end' as in destination. Same spelling, but different word. That doesnt make me a liar. The fact that you argue agianst scriptural context makes you the liar.
Was it not You who dried up the sea, The waters of the GREAT DEEP; Who made the DEPTHS of the sea a pathway For the redeemed to cross over?
originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Utnapisjtim
The Septuagint was translated by Jews for Helenized Jews.
They translated from Paleo-Hebrew texts that were also memorized via the rhetorical meter. The variations between the Septuagint and Masoretic Texts are mostly the result of 'expanded' or 'explanatory' translations.
As I mentioned in my very first post in this thread, Isaiah referenced the parting of the Sea, and he described Israel treading in the depths of the Sea. Depth is emphasized. A reed march does not have any comparable depth to that of a Sea floor. Throughout this entire conversation, you still havent addressed Isaiah 51:10.
Was it not You who dried up the sea, The waters of the GREAT DEEP; Who made the DEPTHS of the sea a pathway For the redeemed to cross over?
Please explain Isaiah 51:10 since you clearly know the bible better than the Septuagint translaters did.
Text The word translated 'O Lucifer' in KJV is Strong's 1966 Helel and it means Morning or Shining One. The full name given is Helel ben-Sahar, which in modern spelling becomes "Hillel ben Zohar" (Hillel son of Zohar), which brings in yet another tradition in Judaism, Kabbalah. Zohar and Sahar are derived from Strongs 7836 the verb shachar, which means to perform morning prayer.
originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Utnapisjtim
Text The word translated 'O Lucifer' in KJV is Strong's 1966 Helel and it means Morning or Shining One. The full name given is Helel ben-Sahar, which in modern spelling becomes "Hillel ben Zohar" (Hillel son of Zohar), which brings in yet another tradition in Judaism, Kabbalah. Zohar and Sahar are derived from Strongs 7836 the verb shachar, which means to perform morning prayer.
You are way off from your thread but will try to explain my understanding. Everyone can find a means of belief if that one is determined to do so. You have found your way to incite disinformation by using limited interpretations of translations in half truths.
It makes no difference what an interpretation is of a translator unless that interpretation is from that translator who actually translated the script into his own understanding. This is why a translation must be from at least two sources of comparative languages at the same period. But a concordance is not a commentary and was never meant to be a commentary. Strongs concordance is a concordance to the King James bible only and is meant for that purpose only.
Now it seems that you are confused as to what a translation, transliteration and an interpretation are. These three are actually three different avenues of expertise. The King James interpreters used the translation of “Day Star” Son of the morning as Lucifer from the Latin Vulgate of Jerome. Lucifer is used in all protestant bibles only once. However the Hebrew translators did not use the name “Lucifer” at all. Lucifer does not exist in their conception of translation from their language to English. In fact neither did Jerome. Jerome used the translation from his understanding of Hebrew into Latin and then from Latin to English.
One and foremost reason the Hebrew does not render Lucifer as their understanding is that a Lucifer or fallen angel does not exist in their understanding in their faith. In their understanding of the celestial creation an angelic rebellion did not happen nor will it happen. There is no evil angel called Lucifer and therefore he cannot be referenced to the Gentile from the Hebrew such as the Gentiles understand him. According to orthodox Judaic teachings angels cannot sin and ha Satan is an angel of trials but not punishments to the creation through God’s decree. Lucifer simply does not exist.
JPS - Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, that didst cast lots over the nations!
KJV - Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
The two comparative verses above are not only translated differently but are interpreted altogether differently. This is why it is important to understand the origins before interpretation. The commentary of this subject in Hebrew does not even resemble the commentary of a Christian Gentile. That is called interpretation.
To show you comparative interpretation --
Luke_10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Lucifer is not worded as Lucifer here in the Greek translation but the interpretation is that Satan is this same fallen angel which is called Lucifer. But then everyone can have their own interpretation can’t they?
So how does this fit into our discussion? Well it is similar to apples and oranges. You have been duped into the same mindset that many others have been duped. You have tried to use a Gentile translation into a non-existing comparison of Hebrew understanding. It simply does not mix because the concept does not exist in Hebrew. The family of Hillel did exist in Jewish history up to about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE but it could not have had any comparative value to Lucifer because Lucifer does not exist to the Hebrew at this time. Regardless of the KJV concordance the word Lucifer who was created in the Latin Vulgate late in the third century has no value to Hebrew concept. Now it may have value to you simply because that is what you choose to use. Even then it is false because you yourself have called the bible bogus. If the bible is bogus then how can you use its material to prove another bogus concept within its contents? That in itself is the most disingenuous and double mindedness that could be presented in any thesis.
What am I led to understand? The Latin word “Lucifer” is not Hebrew but a metaphor translated into Latin by Jerome in the late third century. In other words Jerome invented the word Lucifer. It was non-existent till this time and in the Blackwell Dictionary of Judaica it does not exist. So by this “Lucifer” lies in the minds of the Gentile religions and is not comparative to Judaic faith. By this it cannot be translated from Hebrew manuscripts to English understanding as “Lucifer.”
The King James translators did not use the Masoretic text in this instance but used Jerome’s Latin rendition to the English. This led to extended confusion down through these centuries. If the KJ translators had relied on the Masoretic text then “Lucifer” would never have existed in the first place. Therefor your premise of degrading the school of Hillel as that of Lucifer is absolutely ridiculous and malicious. Your KJ concordance only continues to support your KJ bible and nothing more.
originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
www.history.com...
Do a search for Nilometer.
About June 5 the Blue Nile begins to rise quickly, and it reaches its ordinary maximum by August 25; its red, muddy water reaches Aswan about July 15, and Cairo 10 days later. When once the red water has appeared the rise of the Nile is rapid
Gen 7:11 ...on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open...
The biblical text doesn't actually say anything magic happened. Just that Moses made a signal by raising his staff over his head that made the water stand as walls to both sides. Which can easily be interpreted as a turning wall that can hold back water. A floodgate.
TextSince you seem to avoid anything important and instead carry on explaining your incompetence clearly dismayed by mine:
originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Utnapisjtim
The "great deep" is not a reference to a 15 to 30 meter deep water reservior. Its means, the bottom of the ocean/sea.
Gen 7:11 ...on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open...
It means: sea floor, abyss, subterranean spring.
No nilometer fits the description of Isaiah 51:10.
Edit:
Thats not the only problem with your theory. You said:
The biblical text doesn't actually say anything magic happened. Just that Moses made a signal by raising his staff over his head that made the water stand as walls to both sides. Which can easily be interpreted as a turning wall that can hold back water. A floodgate.
Neither in Isaiah 51:10 nor in Psalm 77:19, or Psalm 106:9 were the writers praying to Moses, but to God Himself. It wasnt Moses who "opened the flood gates", but God who parted the Red Sea.
Also look at Isaiah 43:16 and Isaiah 63:11&12.
Your "theory" and the actual Exodus accounts are mutually exclusive. You would have to rewrite parts of the bible to support your story.
For someone who believes in the supernatural, I dont understand why the parting of the Red Sea is so hard to accept. The evidence is there: the charriot wheels, the underwater land-bridge. Why are biblical miracles so repulsive to you?