Murder rates dropping as more states allow concealed weapons

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Please dont confuse me for an Obama supporter.

Healthcare does have a lot to do with crime, in the sense that mental health is addressed.

In the sense that guns are used to counter a crime in progress or to stop victimization we agree. But the gun iself does not prevent criminality any more than it causes it.

originally posted by: vor78

The most interesting theory I've seen on it (and admittedly, I have not had a chance to try to pick it apart), is that the declines in violent crime in western society over the last quarter century are largely attributable to the bans on lead-based gasoline, paint and other products during the same time period. At a glance, it seems to make perfect sense, too, given that lead exposure has been tied to declines in IQ, impaired judgement, and behavioral issues. Where is violent crime at its worst? In the high population density inner cities. Where would you expect lead concentrations to be the worst? In the high population density inner cities. Its something I intend to read up on when I get a chance, and it may fall apart under further scrutiny, but at a glance, its an interesting theory, at the very least.

That does sound interesting, although I'd doubt that would be the major influence, since most people avoid getting gasoline on their hands/skin and whatnot (don't know who much lead was in the fumes, but I wouldn't think much, if any).

But you add another morsel of truthiness to my point--it's not always one thing, but usually many factors that converge to cause something like a decrease in violent crime.

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: SlapMonkey

Please dont confuse me for an Obama supporter.

Healthcare does have a lot to do with crime, in the sense that mental health is addressed.

In the sense that guns are used to counter a crime in progress or to stop victimization we agree. But the gun iself does not prevent criminality any more than it causes it.

I never assume someone is an Obama supporter...to do that would be insulting the individual

You make a good point in that mental health is probably the number one factor in violent firearm deaths, coupled with a lack of morality (which I attribute to both parent(s) and society). And I should have paid attention to the nuance in the word "healthcare," as the PPACA is about health insurance, not the access to or quality of care.

And we agree on your last point--a gun is a tool, but that tool is what can prevent or deter a criminal, so in a sense, the gun does actually deter a criminal. I'm quite certain that, if while I were on vacation, I placed a .50cal rifle on a stand point at the door visible through a slight crack in the curtains, that would deter a criminal without any human presence within the house. But now we're just arguing symantics--what kills someone? The person with the gun? the gun? the bullet? the wound? the first-responder response time? etc etc etc.

I think it was back in the 1960's the ACLU sued the federal government to release the people from the mental institutions.

So today we are seeing the results...

a reply to: waltwillis

Would appear that you're talking about the 1975 decision mentioned in the last paragraph here?

a reply to: jimmyx

The absence of common sense doesn't need a scapegoat like firearms.

originally posted by: projectvxn

originally posted by: PhoenixOD
The murder rate has been dropping in the UK as well and we don't have legalized guns.

The UK and the US are completely different nations. Economics, demographics, education, healthcare. Its an apples to oranges comparison.

Yep and we have more people.

The population of the UK is around 65 million.

The population of the US is anywhere between 330-400 million.

Counting 'undocumented persons'.

originally posted by: thisguyrighthere
a reply to: wulff

There is not enough to show that permits are contributing much if anything to the reduction of crime.

Doesnt mean the stat is worthless.

At the very least we can say that more permits and more people carrying has not lead to an increase in crime as so many anti's have promised us would be the case.

I'm still waiting for the streets to run with blood. Been waiting 30 years now. Got my hip waders and everything.

While technically you are correct...but when a violent criminal considers doing something bad, if the number of people that carry guns goes from 10% to 25%, they will consider the possibilities. Personally...I'd prefer to hear that violent crime HASN'T gone down, and that citizen shot/killed criminals has gone up.

Regarding the difference between Britain and the US.

"Hot burglaries"

In America, it's called a "hot" burglary - a burglary that takes place when the homeowners are present - or a "home invasion", which is a much more accurate term. Just over 10 per cent of US burglaries are "hot" burglaries, and in my part of the world it's statistically insignificant: there is virtually zero chance of a New Hampshire home being broken into while the family are present. But in England and Wales it's more than 50 per cent and climbing. Which is hardly surprising given the police's petty, well-publicised pursuit of those citizens who have the impertinence to resist criminals.

As a supporter of Second amendment rights, I understand the importance. I'm not too fond of open carry, however, I do not live in a state that permits it. As a former Yankee, I thought owning a gun was absurd. Now as a transplant to the south, I realize the importance in the right to carry. Fear seems to dictate most anti gun agendas. Once I overcame the "mass media induced fear", I realize the value of gun ownership. It is a big responsibility, however, it is even more fundamental to maintaining a civil country. The balance needs to be there. You don't need to be the gun owner, but by supporting the cause, you are exercising your fundamental rights as an American!

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

Personally...I'd prefer to hear that violent crime HASN'T gone down, and that citizen shot/killed criminals has gone up.

Care to elaborate? I am not sure I am understanding that correctly.

originally posted by: Mommymomo
As a supporter of Second amendment rights, I understand the importance. I'm not too fond of open carry, however, I do not live in a state that permits it. As a former Yankee, I thought owning a gun was absurd. Now as a transplant to the south, I realize the importance in the right to carry. Fear seems to dictate most anti gun agendas. Once I overcame the "mass media induced fear", I realize the value of gun ownership. It is a big responsibility, however, it is even more fundamental to maintaining a civil country. The balance needs to be there. You don't need to be the gun owner, but by supporting the cause, you are exercising your fundamental rights as an American!

Don't feel so bad ...When I got out of the army I was in favor of gun registration as a way to catch criminals.
I also helped Biden get elected for the first time in DE.
Then I grew up!

a reply to: NonsensicalUserName

Consistancy people - consistancy.

States rights when you want - but not about guns.

Love the throughtful ideas.

originally posted by: FyreByrd
a reply to: NonsensicalUserName

Consistancy people - consistancy.

States rights when you want - but not about guns.

Love the throughtful ideas.

The states' rights argument derives from the 10th amendment, which deals with powers of Congress and the states not specifically enumerated in the Constitution. As we all know, however, the Constitution actually does contain a provision regarding the right to keep and bear arms by way of the 2nd Amendment and makes a statement with regards to the limitations that government can place on that right in the statement 'shall not be infringed'. Given that the protections outlined in the Constitutions and Bill of Rights have been found to be incorporated against the states, I can't see how this can really be a states' rights issue.

That said, I'd actually prefer if this was largely left to the states to decide. I'd rather my rights be determined by people I had a chance to vote for and who have some degree of understanding of the people, values and culture of my state than for it to be subject to the idiocy of some left wing kook from San Francisco or Boston who knows less than nothing about firearms or the people out in 'flyover' territory who own them.

originally posted by: bbracken677
Regarding the difference between Britain and the US.

"Hot burglaries"

In America, it's called a "hot" burglary - a burglary that takes place when the homeowners are present - or a "home invasion", which is a much more accurate term. Just over 10 per cent of US burglaries are "hot" burglaries, and in my part of the world it's statistically insignificant: there is virtually zero chance of a New Hampshire home being broken into while the family are present. But in England and Wales it's more than 50 per cent and climbing. Which is hardly surprising given the police's petty, well-publicised pursuit of those citizens who have the impertinence to resist criminals.

Can I ask where that quote is from please? I live in the UK and am not familiar with that statistic or more importantly the so called well publicised pursuit of people who resist someone they find on their property. Is this a cheap comment from an online version of something like the Daily Fail or do you actually have any stats to back it up?

Last time I can remember that a householder over here shot a burglar (in the buttocks and back no less) the incident was rightly investigated but no charges were brought. Prior to that, when the homeowner protected themself with a knife and the trespasser was killed, no charges were brought. You obviously have different information - care to share?

I'm not sure why this always has to be an America vs the rest of the world argument, your NRA makes sure you are all soaked into buying guns because it's politically and financially profitable for it, that's life.

Correlation isn't causation. There.

originally posted by: wulff
A dramatic spike in the number of Americans with permits to carry concealed weapons coincides with an equally stark drop in violent crime, according to a new study, which Second Amendment advocates say makes the case that more guns can mean safer streets.

The study by the Crime Prevention Research Center found that 11.1 million Americans now have permits to carry concealed weapons, up from 4.5 million in 2007. The 146 percent increase has come even as both murder and violent crime rates have dropped by 22 percent.

Between 2007 and the preliminary estimates for 2013, murder rates have fallen from 5.6 to 4.4 per 100,000.
When criminals think THEY may become the victims they go after the 'softer targets'.
As much as anti-gun people want to admit, the statistics are showing drop in murder since states tired of the left attacking the constitution fight back!

Source PDF File ( Direct Download)

The court decision placed the control of firearms sales under federal control because of the interstate commerce clause.

Some states have allowed the manufacturing of firearms to be stamped with in state sales only as a way to take back control of firearms sales and ownership within their state.

Some state have had enough of the federal intrusions to the point where they are pushing back.

This may lead to another civil war if the feds get pissed.

It is your job to vote and prevent the next civil war starting next November.

originally posted by: bbracken677
a reply to: WeAreSound

I will look up and post the stats on home invasions in the UK vs US later. That will take the wind out of the UK is better without guns crap.

Home invasions of homes that are occupied at the time is startling. Reason? Chances of a home owner being able to defend themselves is nil. Not so in the US where burglars want to do their work in unoccupied homes.

You keep coming out with that crap - any chance of actually getting any facts around it?

originally posted by: WeAreSound
Some statistics on Uk vs USA on both overall murder and gun crime for 2010-2011

Number of Murders, United States, 2010: 12,996
Number of Murders by Firearms, US, 2010: 8,775
Number of Murders, Britain, 2011*: 638
(Since Britain’s population is 1/5 that of US, this is equivalent to 3,095 US murders)
Number of Murders by firearms, Britain, 2011*: 58
(equivalent to 290 US murders)
Number of Murders by crossbow in Britain, 2011*: 2 (equivalent to 10 US murders).

The international comparisons show conclusively that fewer gun owners among civilians per capita produce not only fewer murders by firearm, but fewer murders per capita over all.

I know this will be attacked by the people posting on this thread, but I really do not understand how anyone can justify giving more people the option to carry guns. I would love to see a breakdown of the us figures for how many of those gun crimes were committed by people with 'legal' firearms compared to 'illegal ' ones.......

Maybe your not so stupid after all...HOWEVER!

In 1997 while waiting for the fingerprint tech to return I as the desk officer if I could read this years UCR from the FBI files.

After seeing that 97% of all murders committed in the previous year were committed by minorities!

I was shocked that this important information was NEVER published in anything other then the UCR.

I told the officer that we could reduce murders in this country over night if we could band minorities.

If you took away the major city crime rate we would be the safest nation on the face of the earth!