Neandertal trait in early human skull suggests that modern humans...

a reply to: Starbucks
You've got that backwards. Homo sapiens Sapiens of non African descent have a small percentage of Neanderthal and some carry a small amount of Neanderthal AND Densiovan DNA in them. They were both here first and bred with the HSS who moved into Europe and Asia as they left Africa. Not quite certain where you came up with the correlation between Neanderthal and modern Russians, and I've heard a lot of kooky things over the years.

a reply to: peter vlar

more like neaderthals branched from homosapients of non african descent.
homosapiens of non african descent ultimately branched from african homosapiens and those from Adam..

the premise that neanderthal existance was based on having the ear trait (not found in current homosapiens).

However the new discovery that ancient homosapiens had the ear trait once, means Neanderthal were homosapiens!

a reply to: Starbucks

And just exactly what ear trait are you referring to? Serious question because I don't have a clue what you're talking about when stating that the entire premise of Neanderthal is based on a particular ear trait.

a reply to: peter vlar

isn't it in the first post of this thread and in the title?

a reply to: Starbucks

Yes, the thread title and article it is based upon are referring to an ear trait seen only in older Neanderthal populations and this is the first instance that particular inner ear formation seen in archaic H. Sapiens populations.

Wat it doesn't say at all is that the premise of Neanderthal is based solely on this particular formation as you allude to in your response to me. Neanderthal began to diverge from H. Erectus approximately 600,000 BPE and the first true Neanderthal are recognized in Europe approximately 250,000 BPE whereas Homo Sapiens did not begin diverging from H. Erectus until well after Neanderthal were established as a seperate species in Europe and Western Asia and H. Sapiens are, based on all the genetic and fossil data we currently have, an entirely African derivative, likely from Erectus though that aspect is still subject to debate.

The short version of the story is that the concept of HSN being predicated solely on a particular inner ear trait is bullocks as there are a host of morphological differences and the geologic time frame is quite clear that they were well established in Europe long before H. Sapiens emerged in Africa.

there is really no trait in neanderthal not found in homosapiens.

The whole idea of direct lineage is proposterous anyways…. no matter which form in comes in.

Just look at how we mix and match in this day and age. There's absolutely no reason it would have been any different x number of years ago.

So yes, the fact that they report this makes me believe they want to learn something themselves.

In 50.000 years some form of life will dig in our old Earth, and amongst the polluted stone and dirt they will find skulls with the slightest differences and try to find out how they go together.

The funny thing is: It doesn't mean a damn thing….. it wont change anything.

Understanding the now based on the past is like wondering why a fart smells the way it does.

The only thing that does matter is doing good right here in the present.

it does matter. that we are created not evoluted, and then we have to know why we are created? what the creator allows us to do and what he does NOT allow us to do.

originally posted by: Starbucks
there is really no trait in neanderthal not found in homosapiens.

Where do you live? I only ask because I want to get you a library card so you can read upon the topic before you make more nonsensical claims.

Just the morphological differences between HNS and HSS are:

FYI I will be describing features of HNS that are different from HSS just thought I would add that to avoid confusion

Lets start off with just the differences in cranial morphology

Suprainiac fossa, a groove above the inion

Occipital bun, a protuberance of the occipital bone, which looks like a hair knot

Projecting mid-face

less neotenized skull than modern humans this means that compared to us, there were much larger differences in appearance between juveniles and adults

Low, flat, elongated skull

A flat basicranium this is the base of the skull, it is more rounded in HSS than HNS

Supraorbital torus, a prominent, trabecular (spongy) brow ridge I.E. their brow ridge compared to ours was huge and protruding


1,500–1,900 cm3 (92–116 cu in) skull capacity (modern man: 1425 cm3) this can be a little misleading because its based on averages but the average Neanderthal cranium had a larger capacity and thus a larger brain than the average HSS


Lack of a protruding chin (mental protuberance; although later specimens possess a slight protuberance)

Crest on the mastoid process behind the ear opening. this is a bony protrusion that can be felt behind a a little below our ear, they had a slightly different protrusion than we do.

No groove on canine teeth

A retromolar space posterior to the third molar. This is because HNS had Prognathism, which more simply means their lower jaw protruded much more than ours.

Bony projections on the sides of the nasal opening, projecting nose

Distinctive shape of the bony labyrinth in the ear

Larger mental foramen in mandible for facial blood supply



Here are some differences in the post cranial skeleton-

Considerably more robust, stronger build

Long collar bones, wider shoulders

Barrel-shaped rib cage

Short, bowed shoulder blades

More laterally curved radius with a radial tuberosity placed more medially, a longer radial neck, a more ovoid radial head, and a well-developed interosseous crest. the interosseous crest is an where a membrane attaches in the median essentially attaching the radius and ulna together with fibrous tissue.

On the ulna, the trochlear notch is facing more anteriorly, the brachialis insertion is lower, the mid-shaft is larger, and the shaft is more sinusoidal. This and the description of the radius above are describing large differences in their forearms compared to ours.

Larger round finger tips

Large kneecaps

Thick, bowed shaft of the thigh bones, bowed femur

Short shinbone and calf bone, longer torso and proportionally shorter legs

Long, gracile pelvic pubis (superior pubic ramus) this means it was more slender in an HNS than it is in us


Additionally, we have mapped their DNA and it is quite definitely and distinctively different from ours as well as older than ours by a large order of magnitude.

I'm not going to try to insult your religious inclinations so I'll just avoid entirely your comments about Adam and Eve, but just because you don't believe the science behind all of this doesn't make it any less true.

these differences don't make a different taxa.
they could be different because all ancient humans were like that or because they were an extinct race of humans.
or the most likely they are still alive as the Europpeans russians (big noses, big arches, etc minor traits to conform to weather no need for dna change for that at all)

all humans proven by DNA branched from a man who lived 50k years ago.
so there can't be humans before that.

originally posted by: Starbucks
these differences don't make a different taxa.
they could be different because all ancient humans were like that or because they were an extinct race of humans.
or the most likely they are still alive as the Europpeans russians (big noses, big arches, etc minor traits to conform to weather no need for dna change for that at all)

all humans proven by DNA branched from a man who lived 50k years ago.
so there can't be humans before that.

That's a pile of monkey poop and unless you can support your supposition with a legitimate citation it will stay a steaming pile of monkey poop. How can you account for human remains in what is now Israel and Lebanon thsat are well over 100,000 BPE?

if my watch tells me a specific time has passed(dna), you can't counteract with counting how many sunrises has passed(gravel guessing).

it is sharp.
these traits dont make a different taxa. they could happen inside homosapiens.
for example a person with a flat sniffers nose needs only 80 years of special stressor (like extreme cold) to make his nose caucasian pointed, and no need for dna changes for that to happen.

The Neanderthal were caucasian race of the homosapiens and they still live as the caucasian race.
only three percent of their dna survived the ages, and that 3 percent is what is found in current humans.
when a person dies third of his dna mutate in the first hour.

passing several thousand years the only dna on a bone is the dna of thousands of generations of germs lived on the bone ever since.

comparing dna of neanderthal with current humans is not scientific . they should compare dna of neanderthal with dna of humans contemporary or as old and from the same area., then you will see that they match with all their dna since 97% belong to germs and 3% belong to humans (humans and their branch the caucasian race)

originally posted by: Starbucks
if my watch tells me a specific time has passed(dna), you can't counteract with counting how many sunrises has passed(gravel guessing).

Actually you can but that's beside the point that you the simply refuting legitimate data because it doesn't match up with your as yet still lack of citation to support your earlier claims of humans only existing for 50,000 years based on
Some religious notion.

it is sharp.
these traits dont make a different taxa. they could happen inside homosapiens.

No offense intended but I'm not quite sure you know what you're talking about because you're using the word taxa in an incorrect context here.

for example a person with a flat sniffers nose needs only 80 years of special stressor (like extreme cold) to make his nose caucasian pointed, and no need for dna changes for that to happen.

That's complete bullocks that morphology can be changed so drastically within two generations. Unless there's a new study I've missed. I don't suppose you
Can support that statement either can you?

The Neanderthal were caucasian race of the homosapiens and they still live as the caucasian race.
only three percent of their dna survived the ages, and that 3 percent is what is found in current humans.
when a person dies third of his dna mutate in the first hour.

I'm sorry to be so blunt but this is absolute garbage that you're spouting.

passing several thousand years the only dna on a bone is the dna of thousands of generations of germs lived on the bone ever since.

I guess its a good thing that samples aren't taken from on the bone they are taken from in the bone. If what you are saying were true you would not get the same results when testing different individuals because different environments breed different organisms or as you are calling them germs. Keep em coming I needed a good laugh tonight.

comparing dna of neanderthal with current humans is not scientific .

Oh, since it's coming from you it must be true so let's throw out decades of research based on your religous convictions being offended by science and your complete lack of supporting data. You're making the claim thus the onus is upon you to support the suppositional statements that defy everything we have learned about Neanderthal n

they should compare dna of neanderthal with dna of humans contemporary or as old and from the same area., then you will see that they match with all their dna since 97% belong to germs and 3% belong to humans (humans and their branch the caucasian race)

They have and it doesn't. Care to try again? What about Denisovans? Homo Erectus or h. Georgicus living in the Caucuses 1.8 MYA?



That was the longest and most drawn out version of " why no Mr. Vlar, I can not provide a citation to support the ludicrous statements I am making in utter contravention to everything we have learned about Neanderthal over the last 158 years since the first set of their remains were discovered in Germany. "

you don't provide citation that Science was inherited by you from Mr Darwin, and I dont

the 1.8Mya are chimps like darwin.

Only maternal dna could survive after several k years. Maternal dna can not possibly change because they are responsible for life functions. they should match 100% percent between humans and neanderthal.

since the obvious similarities of both, having same life functions.

to match only 3% is yet another evidence that the dna is that of the germs (lives even to the deepest places in bones.
germs make colony and die another germ make colony over the dead bodies of dead colony and so on.
dna germs should match for geographical areas. they change after weather change too.

in forensic medicine you could tell where the bone was found (australia or sweden) just from germs dna, and you could tell they are older or younger than 5k years because of the change of the germs flora.

No, the dna of ancient homosapiens and ancient Neanderthal from the same area and time period should match. they avoided doing that.
they compared neanderthal from central asia with homosapien bones from africa.

Darwin was changed into a chimp-look-alike person by god for something sinister he did.
He was teased by his friends all his life for his looks. He subconsiously payed mankind back by explaining why he looked like a chimp and that all humans were originated from chimps.
It was his subconsious mind at work. when he came closer to die he apologized to god in a letter to a friend.

Well in defence of Starbucks, though I dont agree with any Middle East Religious Myths, is correct in stating that HSS only appeared 50,000 years ago.
For it was 10 years ago that this was published.....Genealogy EXPERTS say Homo S only 66000 years old, and eceryone is from Ethiopia Africa....

www.sciencedaily.com...

Of course, nowadays theories have changed, the out of Africa theory is in question, there are even back to Africa from Asia/Europe theories.

We had a family friend, now departed, who was a Hungarian immigrant, ex Russian POW etc who escaped.
Anyway, his PHYSICAL appearance was almost Identical to that of the models and images of a Neanderthal man.
He had the large Muzzel, thick brow, flat head, short, very stocky and strong, wide shoulders for size etc etc.....he was Neanderthal reincarnate.
There are many Europeans, particularly of East European heritage, that have very similar physical traits to these ancient humans, I dont think Neanderthals died out, they just changed like all other Humans, to be part off the diverse Human gene pool. Tall, short, fat, skinny, strong, weak....we have it all.

originally posted by: Starbucks
you don't provide citation that Science was inherited by you from Mr Darwin, and I dont

I'm sorry but you really don't know what you're saying let alone understand modern evolutionary synthesis. Darwin was a basic foundation but our current understanding of evolution goes far beyond anything postulated by Darwin.

the 1.8Mya are chimps like darwin.

No, the hominin remains found in Dmanisi, republic of Georgia are Homo Erectus. Here is a video of a 3D reconstruction of the most complete skull they found at the site, skull D2700 vimeo.com...

Only maternal dna could survive after several k years. Maternal dna can not possibly change because they are responsible for life functions. they should match 100% percent between humans and neanderthal.

since the obvious similarities of both, having same life functions.

to match only 3% is yet another evidence that the dna is that of the germs (lives even to the deepest places in bones.
germs make colony and die another germ make colony over the dead bodies of dead colony and so on.
dna germs should match for geographical areas. they change after weather change too.

thanks for making and reinforcing my earlier point, that if it were really "germs" contaminating the samples there would be variations based on geography and age. there is very little diversity in MtDNA of Neanderthal.

On average, Neanderthal mtDNA genomes differ from each other by 20.4 bases and are only 1/3 as diverse as modern humans (Briggs et al. 2009). The low diversity might signal a small population size, possibly due to the incursions of modern humans into their range (Briggs et al. 2009).

in forensic medicine you could tell where the bone was found (australia or sweden) just from germs dna, and you could tell they are older or younger than 5k years because of the change of the germs flora.

you really are making this up as you go along aren't you?

flo·ra noun

noun: flora

the plants of a particular region, habitat, or geological period.

"the desert flora give way to oak woodlands"


a treatise on or list of the plant life of a particular region or period.

plural noun: florae; plural noun: floras

No, the dna of ancient homosapiens and ancient Neanderthal from the same area and time period should match. they avoided doing that.

and what exactly is your evidence for that? The original sample for thr mtDNA was taken from a Neanderthal specimen found in Croatia. Svante Paabo's lab later mapped the mtDNA of several more Neanderthal from multiple locations.

Later, Svante Pääbo’s lab sequenced the entire mitochondrial genome of five Neanderthals (Briggs et al. 2009). Sequences came from two individuals from the Neander Valley in Germany, Mezmaiskaya Cave in Russia, El Sidrón Cave in Spain and Vindija Cave in Croatia. Though the Neanderthal sample comes from a wide geographic area, the Neanderthal mtDNA sequences were not particularly genetically diverse.

humanorigins.si.edu...

they compared neanderthal from central asia with homosapien bones from africa.

please see above that you are entirely incorrect about where they sourced the Neanderthal specimens for DNA samples.

Your prior assertion that Neanderthal descended from HSS is patently absurd as they had been in Europe for over 200,000 years before archaic humans began migrating out of Africa and into Europe.
www.sci-news.com...

The Neanderthal mtDNA sequences were substantially different from modern human mtDNA (Krings et al. 1997, 1999). Researchers compared the Neanderthal to modern human and chimpanzee sequences. Most human sequences differ from each other by on average 8.0 substitutions, while the human and chimpanzee sequences differ by about 55.0 substitutions. The Neanderthal and modern human sequences differed by approximately 27.2 substitutions. Using this mtDNA information, the last common ancestor of Neanderthals and modern humans dates to approximately 550,000 to 690,000 years ago, which is about four times older than the modern human mtDNA pool. This is consistent with the idea that Neanderthals did not contribute substantially to modern human genome.

Some further reference material on the subject-
Briggs, A.W., Good, J.M., Green, R.E., Krause, J. Maricic, T., Stenzel, U., Lalueza-Fox, C., Rudan, P., Brajkovi, D., Kuan, ., Gui, I., Schmitz, R., Doronichev, V.B., Golovanova, L. V., de la Rasilla, M., Fortea, J., Rosas, A., Pääbo, S., 2009. Targeted retrieval and analysis of five Neandertal mtDNA genomes. Science 325: 318-321.

Brown, T.A., 2010. Stranger from Siberia. Nature 464: 838-839.

Callaway, Ewen. 2009. First draft of Neanderthal genome is unveiled. New Scientist. 12 Feb 2009.

Caramelli, D., Lalueza-Fox, C., Vernesi, C., Lari, M., Casoli, A., Mallegni, F., Chiarelli, B., Dupanloup, I., Bertranpetit, J., Barbujani, G., Bertorelle, G., 2003. Evidence for a genetic discontinuity between Neandertals and 24,000-year-old anatomically modern Europeans. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 100: 6593-6597.

Caramelli, D., Milani, L., Vai, S., Modi, A., Peccholi, E., Girardi, M., Pilli, E., Lari, M., Lippi, B., Ronchitelli, A., Mallegni, F., Casoli, A., Bertorelle, G., Barbujani, G., 2008. A 28,000 years old Cro-Magnon mtDNA sequence differs from all potentially contaminating modern sequences. PLoS One 3(7): e2700.

Coop, G., Bullaughey, K. Luca, F., Przeworski, M., 2008. The timing of selection at the human FOXP2 Gene. Molecular Biology and Evolution 25(7): 1257-1259.

Currat, M., Excoffier, L., 2004. Modern humans did not admix with Neanderthals during their range expansion into Europe. PLoS Biology 2: e421.

Dalton, R., 2006. Neanderthal DNA yields to genome foray. Nature 441: 260-261.

Dalton, R., 2006. Neanderthal genome sees first light. Nature 444: 254.

Evans, P.D., Mekel-Bobrov, N., Vallender, E.J., Hudson, R.R., Lahn, B.T., 2006. Evidence that the adaptive allele of the brain size gene microcephalin introgressed into Homo sapiens from an archaic Homo lineage. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 103(48): 18178-18183.

Fabre, V., Condemi, S., Degioanni, A., 2009. Genetic evidence of geographical groups among Neanderthals. PLoS One 4(4): e5151.

Green, R. E., J. Krause, Briggs, A.W., Marcic, T., Stensel, U., Kircher, M., Patterson, N.Fritz, M., Hansen, N., Durand, E.Y., Malaspinas, A-S, Jensen, J.D., Marques-Bonet, T., Alkan, C., Prüfer, K., Meyer, M., Burbano, H.A., Good, J.M., Schultz, R., Aximu-Petri, A., Butthof, A., Höber, B., Höffner, B., Siegemund, M., Weihmann, A., Nusbaum, C., Lander, E.S., Russ, C., Novod, N., Affourtit, J., Egholm, M., Verna, C., Rudan, P., Brajkovic, D., Kucan, Ž., Gušic, I., Doronichev, V.B., Golovanova, L.V., Lalueza-Fox, C., de la Rasilla, M., Fortea, J., Rosas, A., Schmitz, R.W., Eichler, E.E., Falush, D., Birney, E., Mullikan, J.C>, Slatkin, M., Neilsen, R., Kelso, J., Lachmann, M., Reich, D., Pääbo, S., 2010. A draft sequence of the Neandertal genome. Science 328: 710-722.

a reply to: peter vlar

Green, R. E., J. Krause, Briggs, A.W., Marcic, T., Stensel, U., Kircher, M., Patterson, N.Fritz, M., Hansen, N., Durand, E.Y., Malaspinas, A-S, Jensen, J.D., Marques-Bonet, T., Alkan, C., Prüfer, K., Meyer, M., Burbano, H.A., Good, J.M., Schultz, R., Aximu-Petri, A., Butthof, A., Höber, B., Höffner, B., Siegemund, M., Weihmann, A., Nusbaum, C., Lander, E.S., Russ, C., Novod, N., Affourtit, J., Egholm, M., Verna, C., Rudan, P., Brajkovic, D., Kucan, Ž., Gušic, I., Doronichev, V.B., Golovanova, L.V., Lalueza-Fox, C., de la Rasilla, M., Fortea, J., Rosas, A., Schmitz, R.W., Eichler, E.E., Falush, D., Birney, E., Mullikan, J.C>, Slatkin, M., Neilsen, R., Kelso, J., Lachmann, M., Reich, D., Pääbo, S., 2010. A draft sequence of the Neandertal genome. Science 328: 710-722.

Green, R. E., Krause, J., Ptak, S.E., Briggs, A.W., Ronan, M.T., Simons, J.F., Du, L., Egholm, M., Rothberg J.M., Paunovic, M., Pääbo, S.,. 2006. Analysis of one million base pairs of Neanderthal DNA. Nature 444: 330-336.

Green, R. E., Malaspinas, A.-S. Krause, J., Briggs, A., Johnson, P., Uhler, C., Meyer, M., Good, J., Maricic, T., Stenzel, U., 2008. A complete Neandertal mitochondrial genome sequence determined by high-throughput sequencing. Cell 134: 416-426.

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originally posted by: Starbucks
It was his subconsious mind at work. when he came closer to die he apologized to god in a letter to a friend.

this story is what we would call apocryphal. It's a lie, untrue, made up, do you see where I'm going with this.

a reply to: gort51

The 10 year old data is about as extinct as Australopithecus at this point, there has been a great deal of work done in the last decade but in all seriousness, there are just a couple of minor corrections I would offer. I think it would be more apt to say the time frame you are giving is for Homo Sapiens Sapiens, which is us, the humans living today and for the past several tens of thousands of years. There is, technically, a difference between HSS and just plain Homo Sapiens, and a difference between Homo Sapiens and Archaic Human populations that began moving out of Africa approximately 100,000 BPE What Starbucks is trying to claim is that HNS( Neanderthal) are descended from US which is just plain gobbeldy gook as there is a pretty extensive fossil record showing that HNS were in Europe as a fully formed, separate identifiable species approximately 200-250,000 years ago and there are transitional fossils going back a few hundred thousand years prior to that showing the shift from H. Erectus to HNS and the mtDNA sequenced from multiple HNS specimens from Europe and Asia backj that up indicating our last common ancestor between HNS and HSS was between 550,000 BPE and 690,000 BPE there are links and citations to support this in my last reply to Starbucks.