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Mystics. Take my word for it.

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posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 09:25 AM
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originally posted by: theMediator
It seems to me that you have noticed that many people that claim to be spiritual and enlightened are way too centered on their ego for them to be plausible according to your values of what being a mystic is and should be.

I agree with your opinion. Not that it's the truth, because it still a subjective opinion.

I feel enlightened and mystic to a degree but i never feel the need to compare and view my spirituality to be optimal...in doing so, I wouldn't be enlightened in the first place. At least that's the way I feel...

Yet, am I modest about it because of the way my ego gets flattered in acting modest in the first place?
We can all blind ourselves by our own world, our own truth of what this reality really is.



Your response fit pretty with my viewpoint about Mystics & assorted Enlightened individuals


the best comparisons I can make is there are no lifelong Mystics or lifelong Enlightened (masters)...
there are only people that have Epiphanies (itself only a momentary experience) or a 'Channel' (although that meme has a hoax/con-job connotation)...
it is my contention that outside, transcendental experiences can change ones life & lifestyle but not to the pure extent that they were ~one day a mortal sinner and were transformed into Saints by a 'Rapture' experience~

the power & force of that epiphany will fade over time & the deluded adherent will do all the observable rituals to convince both themselves and onlookers that they are Holy, Mystical, etc.
~take for example the mortal Cleric, Priest, Evangelical, Imam... they all had an experience and all become backsliders- natural world reality oriented people in the long run


in my younger years I too had deluded thoughts of being Mystic... but I understood I only had glimpses into the Collective Consciousness/ Noosphere...the Hall of Records analogy of Cayce..
I 'seen' the future including most everything in our technology of today including the 911 operation (scheme)
but finally realized I was not mystic or special... because it is a law, a principle, that a handful or two of individuals will be pre-informed of things which will have a significant change to the culture & future of the world around them '
(that spreading out of visions/insights/prophecies is necessary, so that the way is prepared among the masses for change....

(the Bible slant is that God says before I do any judgements, I will reveal it to my prophets first)




posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 09:56 AM
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The way of the mystic, the inner path, is not an illusion, nor is it ego. Those falling into the traps of ego, are falling from their bikes temporarily until, hopefully spirit awakens them. All are called. Every single one of us is called to transform ourselves from whatever we are doing to contribute to the world around us that is reflecting back immature, angers and divisions and reactions and greed and domination.

We're supposed to bring inspirations and work into the world. For example, the drought in Los Angelos, the fossil fuel energies that need to replaced. The School in Bella Coola is completely run on geothermal. There is a force determined to play out all the crisis they can for agendas and control, perhaps of water here. But what can we do to solve this problem on a grass roots level other than, recycling grey water? Can people start with the first problem, replacing the energy both individually and helping their neighbors build, and then collectively, community doing what was done in a small community? With energy comes many ways of recylcing water including ocean, during droughts.

Dead earth and lack of watering, killing off vegetation only increases drought and desert, it changes climate long term.

There is a top level of government and corruption, a force we need to keep urging back to sanity, but there is still work if the people consider themselves the true grass roots power and start to solve problems and help one another.

This is how people are truly called. Some may teach, or write or nudge how to wake up and break away from control of our minds to free them.

But then the real work should begin, when you are called to contribute.

And between the growth in mysticism or the institutions of religion and control, thank goodness there are other options and presence here.


edit on 9-7-2014 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 10:00 AM
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a reply to: Unity_99

It seems to me that in our desperation to find a meaning that transcends the mechanisms of our psyche, we blame all faults, weaknesses, flaws and incapacities on external agencies in order to avoid facing the reality of our inherent nature. We are so intent on reaching the stars that the laws of physics themselves are at fault, rather than our desire to ascend beyond what we've always been.



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 10:09 AM
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a reply to: Unity_99

There are "miniature" in energy level attack like behaviors within the consciousness of some due to fear -doubt and ignorance of Objective science & Faith Unity_99 within some of the post within the boards its been detected and observed times ago-processing. So don't allow your energy to be pulled into the mental evaluations/observations if you detect there is ignorance more so then TRUTH SEEKING in the vibes. Not pointing out any members for internally its known...

NAMASTE*******



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 10:43 AM
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originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: Unity_99

It seems to me that in our desperation to find a meaning that transcends the mechanisms of our psyche, we blame all faults, weaknesses, flaws and incapacities on external agencies in order to avoid facing the reality of our inherent nature. We are so intent on reaching the stars that the laws of physics themselves are at fault, rather than our desire to ascend beyond what we've always been.


I understand. But you're putting the cart before the horse. People aren't searching for meaning. They are searching for a direct experience of the transcendent, so they can see it in their lives shining through all things.

Sometimes the transcendent peeks through at us, uninvited. Then the search for a way to conceptualize it begins.

You're also presuming to know the mechanisms of the psyche; the reach. You're presuming a dualism that enforces a subject/object, internal/external dychotomy. That dychotomy is false. You're also presuming the laws of physics prohibit psi. They don't.


edit on 698WednesdayuAmerica/ChicagoJuluWednesdayAmerica/Chicago by BlueMule because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 10:56 AM
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a reply to: BlueMule


I understand. But you're putting the cart before the horse. People aren't searching for meaning. They are searching for a direct experience of the transcendent, so they can see it in their lives shining through all things.


Which is basically what I just said. People are getting bored with the status quo.


You're also presuming to know the mechanisms of the psyche; the reach. You're presuming a dualism that enforces a subject/object, internal/external dychotomy. That dychotomy is false. You're also presuming the laws of physics prohibit psi. They don't.


Did mysticism tell you all that?



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 11:14 AM
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originally posted by: AfterInfinity

Which is basically what I just said. People are getting bored with the status quo.


To live in a culture that has a fully-functional mythology and mysticism IS the status quo! People have been touching the transcendent since the birth of Man.

Hm. Maybe through you, God can get a break from THAT status quo. lol.


Did mysticism tell you all that?


I pieced it together, mostly from sugar packets. :p

Seriously though. Mysticism, science, philosophy, scholarship all tell me.

There is a wealth of undiscovered science waiting for you. You don't gotta take my word for it.


edit on 718WednesdayuAmerica/ChicagoJuluWednesdayAmerica/Chicago by BlueMule because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 11:31 AM
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a reply to: Aphorism




They cannot be judged by their actions because they refuse to act, and when they do, its because they have to and have no other choice, proving their “transcendence” is useless outside their own imagination, and a chance at a meaningful life is squandered. Take my word for it.


Amen.

What makes a mystic?

Their actions and those actions leading others to place the label of "mystic" on the mystic.



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 11:42 AM
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a reply to: Aphorism


They cannot be judged by their actions because they refuse to act, and when they do, its because they have to and have no other choice, proving their “transcendence” is useless outside their own imagination, and a chance at a meaningful life is squandered. Take my word for it.


That's like saying Luke Skywalker cannot be commended for his destruction of the Death Star, because he refused to use his targeting computer. He shut it off as he approached the target. When he did fire, it was because he had no other choice, proving that "The Force" was useless outside of his own imagination, and the Freedom of the Galaxy was almost squandered.

The principle of Wu Wei, as depicted in the Star Wars mythos.

"Luke! You switched off your tagetting computer. What's wrong?"




edit on 775Wednesday000000America/ChicagoJul000000WednesdayAmerica/Chicago by BlueMule because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 11:54 AM
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a reply to: BlueMule




Science and scholarship can tell the difference between a mystic and a phony.


they can also differentiate between a rational and delusional mind.




I fear that my worthy foe has failed in his approach, and as a result has fallen into inevitable misunderstanding and reductionism.


Do not fear that they have failed.

The last paragraph in their OP cannot be refuted by anyone that labels themselves, its a clear sign of their ego taking over and saying NO, you don't understand, I am not like this.

A mystic will be labeled such after their acts of mysticism are defined as such by those other than themselves.

If one has experiences and has a sense of deeper understanding of things calls themselves or labels themselves as such it means that they were on a path to understanding but when they jumped the gun and stated telling others they understand is when they hit the snake on the board and fell back down to the start of game again.

But lucky for those that do see the error of their ways they gain a new insight and eventually find the ladder that puts them back where they were before.



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 12:02 PM
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a reply to: InhaleExhale


If one has experiences and has a sense of deeper understanding of things calls themselves or labels themselves as such it means that they were on a path to understanding but when they jumped the gun and stated telling others they understand is when they hit the snake on the board and fell back down to the start of game again.


Yeah, labels aren't much use in the Cloud of Unknowing. But then you come back into the 'real world' and find you have a family and responsibilities. So you play the game again. You chop wood, you carry water.

Suddenly you're a wood-chopper and a water-carrier. And the process of labels creeps in. Again.


edit on 769WednesdayuAmerica/ChicagoJuluWednesdayAmerica/Chicago by BlueMule because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 12:53 PM
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a reply to: BlueMule


To live in a culture that has a fully-functional mythology and mysticism IS the status quo! People have been touching the transcendent since the birth of Man.


Pretty sure they used to say the same thing about Thor. Then they found out what lightning actually was and stopped begging a sky wizard to have mercy on their crops.



Seriously though. Mysticism, science, philosophy, scholarship all tell me.

There is a wealth of undiscovered science waiting for you. You don't gotta take my word for it.


It would be the equivalent of stumbling across a cache of fortune cookies written in Latin and braille. The cookies are delicious, so who gives a hoot what the fortune says?
edit on 9-7-2014 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 12:59 PM
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a reply to: BlueMule


I guess we'll have to take his word for it, eh? After all, there's no possible way a skeptic could possibly test Zen skateboarding. :p


Skateboarding is skateboarding. One doesn’t need to disguise it behind “zen skateboarding” to reap benefits. Meditation is meditation. One doesn’t need to disguise it behind mysticism to reap its benefits. Calling skateboarding “zen skateboarding” is the result of adhering to, and speaking with, the principles of zen buddhism. No matter how we describe the experience of skateboarding, by either using religious or non-religious terminology, does not change the fact that it is just skateboarding.


A phony bodybuilder who makes a living selling phony bodybuilding wisdom will not have big muscles he developed by discipline. You can spot a phony bodybuilder with your eyes.

A phony mystic who makes a living selling phony mystical wisdom will not have a big brain he developed by discipline. You can spot a phony mystic with science.


Well first, a phoney body builder could be using steroids, so no, we wouldn’t be able to tell just by looking at him whether his bodybuilding “wisdom” was of any benefit.

Remember, the experiment was performed on Tibetan Buddhist monks, who greatly esteem reason and skepticism, which is also apparent in the Dalai lama himself. They are also analytic, rational, and employ logic and debate as forms of meditation. They employ the intellect where the mystic chooses not to. Naturally, their “big brains” are also a result of this sort of intellectual practice, simply another form of meditation, and it would lead us to believe that “science” (too loose a use of word for my liking) shows that the skeptic’s brain is bigger than the non-skeptics brain (although the experiment says nothing of brain size, but I will play along), and also, that of the mystic’s, who rarely employs the intellect in tandem with his instinctive and intuitive sensations.

Besides, my argument is not about the efficacy of meditation. My argument is that no one can place a truth value on a mystic’s claims, i.e. unity, enlightenment, nirvana, truth, or that he has achieved anything beyond the manipulation of the body; and that he is apprehending no truth, no reality, no God, but is apprehending that bodily manipulation.


There is quite a bit wrong with what you're saying here. First of all, not every mystic practices asceticism. Second, rituals are re-enactments of a myth. They are performed in a mythological context. That context and the rituals that express them need not be taken literally, factually, historically. It can be taken as symbols, metaphors, signs.


First, I don’t think I have claimed that all mystics are ascetics. Second, whether a ritual is performed in a literal or a mythological context is meaningless – they are still performed in reality and in very real ways.


A drug-addict abuses entheogens in a recreational context; outside of a mythological context. Just as a skateboarder can use a skateboard outside of a Zen context. Entheogens are like any other meditation device, including a skateboard. It depends on your intention and how you use it.


The burning of witches was performed in a mythological context. But that does not change the fact that they burned innocent women alive. We can only tell the value of a practice by its actual result, not by its intention, nor its mythological contents. In the case of shaman and addicts, both use narcotics for their experience, both see their narcotics as necessary for their experience, and both achieve their desired experience through their use. If what differs is their “intention”, then who cares really. I say have at it if that’s what one needs to do to inspire good deeds and action. What matters is how these “intentions” lead to actual action, and whether they can turn their use of narcotics into a meaningful way of existence. This, however, I have yet to see.


So just to wrap it up. The main thrust of the OPs argument is in the thread title and the opening paragraph. We are not in a "take my word for it" scenario, and so his main thrust is wrong. Science and scholarship can tell the difference between a mystic and a phony. So that takes care of most of the OP.


I understand your point and think it is a fair argument. I agree that meditation and neurobics – like any form of exercise – can have beneficial results. But it is not necessarily quite counter to my OP.

That being said, I side with you in that I believe there is great wisdom to be found in the “mystical” way of feeling, for intuitive and instinctive responses to reality and experience is necessary for any creative endeavour, including advances in the sciences. What I do oppose, however, is the unnecessary split between reason and intuition, between body and mind, between matter and spirit, which I think presents a false dichotomy. This, of course, goes both ways, to those who seek to exalt one method at the expense of the other.

So though I may seem anti-mystic, it is because I am anti-authoritarian, and I preach a contrarian view in the hopes to inhibit a dialectic and for pure entertainment, and it is only when the mystic claims he possesses a truth that is inaccessible to non-mystics that I seek to repudiate it. I share the same sentiment towards anti-mystics, or those who negate spiritual endeavours for the sake of upholding any anti-spiritual ideology, i.e. atheism. I believe everyone is spiritual as I have discussed elsewhere.

In the end, it is all lore, or as you say, mythology, within which not just religion and myth are its sole contents, but all literature, mathematics, science, art, law etc as well. I agree with you on this point. When we say we are discussing mysticism or say “science”, this literature, or myth, is all we are really discussing. We must wade through this mess of words and doctrines to decide not only what is intuitive, but also what reasonable and sensible, so that we can apply them towards our art of a meaningful existence.




edit on 9-7-2014 by Aphorism because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 01:30 PM
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a reply to: AfterInfinity

The mystic or psychic will never admit that their experiences are subjective. Perhaps they should remind themselves of those old spiritual pearls...look within...or that all true spiritual paths lead back to oneself. They have too much to lose...one way or another.

I can say this because I have the credentials. I have experience of both the psychic and the mystic.

I never deny anothers experience but do deny that element that would claim the supernatural.

I have learned something from Aphorism...not about spirituality...but about myself and the way I present myself.

Regards

Midicon



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 01:49 PM
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Thanks for starting round three! I'll take it a bit at a time.


originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: BlueMule


I guess we'll have to take his word for it, eh? After all, there's no possible way a skeptic could possibly test Zen skateboarding. :p


Skateboarding is skateboarding. One doesn’t need to disguise it behind “zen skateboarding” to reap benefits. Meditation is meditation. One doesn’t need to disguise it behind mysticism to reap its benefits. Calling skateboarding “zen skateboarding” is the result of adhering to, and speaking with, the principles of zen buddhism. No matter how we describe the experience of skateboarding, by either using religious or non-religious terminology, does not change the fact that it is just skateboarding.


The images, symbols, themes, etc of world religion and myth is not a disguise for meditation. It is a stage mask, and it both conceals and reveals a transcendent truth. All the world is a stage, as the Bard said. Mysticism is about seeing beneath the mask and backstage, not falling for a disguise.


Well first, a phoney body builder could be using steroids, so no, we wouldn’t be able to tell just by looking at him whether his bodybuilding “wisdom” was of any benefit.


Long term steriod abuse can be spotted under the right circumstances. There are side-effects.

There is a variety of equipment people can use to get in shape. But if you want to be a bodybuilder, you have to intend to be a bodybuilder and you have to use certain equipment. Fooling around with dumbells and eating right isn't going to make you a bodybuilder, but it will help you to stay healthier.

There is a variety of ways to sharpen your brain. But if you want to peek backstage, you have to intend to peek backstage and you have to use certain equipment. Intellectual pursuit isn't going to get you backstage, but it will help your mind stay sharp.


edit on 827Wednesday000000America/ChicagoJul000000WednesdayAmerica/Chicago by BlueMule because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 02:00 PM
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a reply to: BlueMule


There is a variety of ways to sharpen your brain. But if you want to peek backstage, you have to intend to peek backstage and you have to use certain equipment.


Is that where "suspending skepticism" comes in?



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 02:13 PM
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a reply to: Aphorism


Remember, the experiment was performed on Tibetan Buddhist monks, who greatly esteem reason and skepticism, which is also apparent in the Dalai lama himself. They are also analytic, rational, and employ logic and debate as forms of meditation. They employ the intellect where the mystic chooses not to.


Ah. So when The Dalai Lama choses to consult an Oracle, is it his intellect, his logic, his analytic rational, or his skepticism that he employs?


Naturally, their “big brains” are also a result of this sort of intellectual practice, simply another form of meditation, and it would lead us to believe that “science” (too loose a use of word for my liking) shows that the skeptic’s brain is bigger than the non-skeptics brain (although the experiment says nothing of brain size, but I will play along), and also, that of the mystic’s, who rarely employs the intellect in tandem with his instinctive and intuitive sensations.


They aren't just big brains with heightened awareness. They are pretty darn unique.

The unique brain anatomy of meditation practitioners: alterations in cortical gyrification


Besides, my argument is not about the efficacy of meditation. My argument is that no one can place a truth value on a mystic’s claims, i.e. unity, enlightenment, nirvana, truth, or that he has achieved anything beyond the manipulation of the body; and that he is apprehending no truth, no reality, no God, but is apprehending that bodily manipulation.


Words like Nirvana and unity are not truth values to be guaged. They are fingers pointing to the Moon. They are place-holder terms for something that can't be put in terms of terms.


edit on 854Wednesday000000America/ChicagoJul000000WednesdayAmerica/Chicago by BlueMule because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 02:48 PM
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a reply to: Aphorism


First, I don’t think I have claimed that all mystics are ascetics. Second, whether a ritual is performed in a literal or a mythological context is meaningless – they are still performed in reality and in very real ways.


That's kind of like saying, whether it's a bunch of Trekkies at a Star Trek convention or a bunch of Witch-burners in a victory march, they are still just performing rituals.


I understand your point and think it is a fair argument. I agree that meditation and neurobics – like any form of exercise – can have beneficial results. But it is not necessarily quite counter to my OP.


It depends on the degree of the change. The higher the better for my position.


That being said, I side with you in that I believe there is great wisdom to be found in the “mystical” way of feeling, for intuitive and instinctive responses to reality and experience is necessary for any creative endeavour, including advances in the sciences. What I do oppose, however, is the unnecessary split between reason and intuition, between body and mind, between matter and spirit, which I think presents a false dichotomy. This, of course, goes both ways, to those who seek to exalt one method at the expense of the other.


What if we could cram Kirk, Spock, and McCoy into one perfect character. Reduce the crew of the Enterprise to one. But where would be the fun in that? All the world is a stage... it's eternity playing in the field of time, the creative play of Brahman. Thou art that.

May I present the 8 ideas of Shakespeare's mysticism of the Theatre.

1. The idea of an inclusive system, a grand spiritual synthesis, reconciling religious extremes in an integrated vision of union with the Divine Love.

2. The idea of syncretic mythology, in which all archaic mythological figures and events are available as a thesaurus of glyphs or token symbols - the personal language of the new metaphysical system.

3. The idea of this concordance of mythological (and historical) figures simply as a Memory System, a tabulated chart of all that can be known, of history, of the other world, and of the inner worlds, and in particular of spiritual conditions and moral types.

4. The idea of this system as a theatre.

5. The idea of these images as internally structured poetic images - the idea of the single image as a package of precisely folded multiple meanings, consistent with the meanings of a unified system.

6. The idea of as-if-actual visualization as the first practical essential for effective meditation (as in St Ignatius Loyola's Spiritual Disciplines, as well as in Cabbala)

7. The idea of meditation as a conjuring, by ritual magic, of hallucinatory figures - with whom conversations can be held, and who communicate intuitive, imaginative visions and clairvoyance.

8. The idea of drama as a ritual for the manipulation of the soul.


edit on 874WednesdayuAmerica/ChicagoJuluWednesdayAmerica/Chicago by BlueMule because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 03:05 PM
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If when you piss, everything tickles...
That's when you know, everything mysticals.
edit on 9-7-2014 by GetOutOfMyLight because: Pressure!



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 03:10 PM
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a reply to: Aphorism


So though I may seem anti-mystic, it is because I am anti-authoritarian, and I preach a contrarian view in the hopes to inhibit a dialectic and for pure entertainment, and it is only when the mystic claims he possesses a truth that is inaccessible to non-mystics that I seek to repudiate it. I share the same sentiment towards anti-mystics, or those who negate spiritual endeavours for the sake of upholding any anti-spiritual ideology, i.e. atheism. I believe everyone is spiritual as I have discussed elsewhere.


A dreamer would claim a truth that is inaccessible to a people with no dream recall ability.

Is he making it all up, those people ask. Look, he is trying to sell dream-recall tips! There is his motive!

Then they hook up science to his brain, and see there is something unusual going on in there.

Hmm.


edit on 884WednesdayuAmerica/ChicagoJuluWednesdayAmerica/Chicago by BlueMule because: (no reason given)



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