To The Freemasons of ATS

a reply to: ParanoidAmerican
Excellent, maybe I'll go knock on the door one of these days...

Oh and thank you very much.

a reply to: HiMyNameIsCal

Ask and you shall receive, knock and the door shall be opened. Be sure to ask your local lodge if you can attend an dinner and pre meeting.

a reply to: ParanoidAmerican

yeah my lodge has public breakfasts and dinners a lot

good luck

originally posted by: ParanoidAmerican
a reply to: network dude

Ah....now this is interesting to me. "There is only one creator of everything. One omnipotent entity. He goes by many names. As far as I know, "Lucifer" has never been one of them. Do you think anyone could justify calling the creator Lucifer? "

Lucifer means bringer of light and is associated with Venus. Some consider the light Lucifer brought to be knowledge....there is some deeper history to this question...

Yes, and as Pike eluded to, Lucifer was not what it's translated meaning was supposed to be. For as many times as I have had to explain that quote, I think I finally understand Pike's reasoning for putting that in the book. He probably knew it would cause controversy with those who wouldn't put the time in to understand it. And those who can't spare their time to learn, have no place in masonry.

originally posted by: colbe
I so wish you would believe, read the Catholic and non-Catholic prophetic, they're saying the same with the
Catholic more explicit for a reason.

Not sure where the disconnect is but just in case you missed it the first time, I do not believe the same thing you do. The Trinity thing does not equal God in my mind.

originally posted by: HiMyNameIsCal
By this comment I take it that one does not need to be technically associated with any particular religion and just has to maintain belief in a higher power, is this correct?

As was pointed out, it is a Supreme Being, not a higher power. It may sound trivial but they are very much different.

But the answer is yes.

originally posted by: MRM13

There's another massive part of the population that is excluded from freemasonry: women.

Please could any of the Freemasons tell me why this is? T

Easy - imagine telling your wife that you have a Worshipful Mistress in the Lodge...

a reply to: network dude

I would go back further than Pike. Gnostic writings are very interesting in their view of the Serpent. Lucifer is added into the Geek translations (Eosphoros) and later into the King James Bible(Lucifer), the same passage in Hebrew does not name the star with a Proper name “How you have fallen from heaven O morning star, son of the dawn!”. In Roman times Lucifer was the son of the dawn goddess named Aurora; and the Romans named the planet we call “Venus” after him. That is also where the translation light-barer comes from as he was associated with the morning star. Among Semitic cultures in general the morning star was identified with the god Azizos (Azazel?).


It truly is a fascinating topic. This one is also often misquoted.....""The day has come when Fellow Craftsman must know and apply their knowledge. The lost key to their grade is the mastery of emotion , which places the energy of the universe at their disposal. Man can only expect to be entrusted with great power by proving his ability to use it constructively and selflessly. When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands, and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply energy. He must follow in the footsteps of his forefather, Tubal-Cain, who with the mighty strength of the war god hammered his sword into a plowshare." [Manly P. Hall, 33rd Degree, K.T., The Lost Keys of Freemasonry or The Secret of Hiram Abiff"

a reply to: ParanoidAmerican

I was under the impression that Hall was not a mason at the time he wrote that. And seeing as how "lucifer" itself was a mistranslation and never meant to be anything more than a reference to a Babylonian King, how could it have even found it's way into any ancient teachings?

The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell?

The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."

link

a reply to: network dude
I am not sure if he was a Mason at the time he wrote that, it is often mis-quoted to show we follow Satan.

I had never heard the fallen king take till now I will be reading more about it. So in the quote I posted “How you have fallen from heaven O morning star, son of the dawn!” the morning star and son of the dawn are the Babylonian king?

a reply to: ParanoidAmerican
Read my thread. All covered there.

a reply to: ParanoidAmerican

Here is a thread from this very sight that does a good job of explaining this. And Augustus' thread covers it well also.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Here is another explanation.
www.keithhunt.com...

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Please see my thread a few down from this one titled Why Masons do not worship Lucifer (or Satan).

I will indeed have a look thank you

a reply to: network dude

Do you think anyone could justify calling the creator Lucifer?

very nice point to be made.
although worship can be directed to beings who are not creators. Although in essence we are all creators just on varying levels.
but yes The Creator could not be attributed to Lucifer.

And on Baphomet, why do you think this name has been used in association with Eliphas Levi's drawing from ''Transcendental Magic its Doctrine and Ritual''

Do you think at some point this has been used to blacken Eliphas Levi and the Knights Templar a second time round, as obviously the 1st mention of Baphomet was a lot earlier than Eliphas Levi's drawing.

Also do you think this association between the two is based on both being viewed as ''Pagan'' and lumped together in some illogical fashion ?

a reply to: network dude

I would like to thank you two Brothers for re-sparking my research bug, I am lost in this 100 page thread and links you provided! Continual learning is continual growth.

a reply to: ParanoidAmerican

It gets a bit hairy and heated but in the end it makes sense.

Feel free to post along the way and I will answer what I can.

My turn...

Here is my simple take on the members of the AF&AM.

They truly believe in the brotherhood of man and the fatherhood of God.

Now that being said I must also say that not all members join for the right reasons.

This is true for any group that the strength of any organization is only as strong as it's weakest link.

Remember that Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

This group has had it's good and bad times as history has shown, but if you look at the major religions of the world you may see the same troubles have occurred to them.

Please try not to judge all by looking at the bad or the good members.

As a group they have done much to improve the way of life in this land.

The brotherhood of man and the fatherhood of God is not a bad way to think...

This will be my last comment to the thread as it would appear the interest is flagging.
but please feel free to comment if you have any questions for the brothers that have not been covered, I will of course be checking back every now and again to see if any more progression is made.

The Intention for writing this thread was to increase understanding between masons and non masons, i feel to a degree this has been achieved.

It is also a shame some felt they needed to counter Freemasonry with religion as these opinions are all over ATS already and did not need airing in this thread.

This thread was meant to be different from all the Freemasonry bashing and give the brothers a chance to discuss and reveal there opinions and views in a respectful environment.

I have plenty of time for religion and it's writings but have very little time for hate (I find it so draining) this is a lesson i hope you understand.

Some of you may view this thread as pro masonry, it is not, but in the same breath it is not anti masonry either. I have tried my best to be impartial,fair and open.

I would like to for one last time Thank everyone for participating and the overall decency and respect given from both sides of the debate, I hope some of you have learned something, i myself can safely say that i have and i would like to leave you all on a light note.

May you all go forth with love and tolerance within your hearts, to guide your brothers and sisters upon the path, To allow kindness and righteousness into the world, To raise yourselves through the spheres of love and light. Through unity and understanding may our world rejoice in the evolution of man to brotherhood.

Blessings of Peace be with you all.

a reply to: JokerThe1st

Frankly, I thought is was a very well intentioned thread.

a reply to: JokerThe1st
Don't let the derailment stop you. Your OP was great.